interactives as Runestone Exercises

[Bradley Miller]

There are now a few different books that are using interactives to build custom exercises.  Correctly using the SPLICE protocol we can save and restore student answers!! 

But without having them in the database they cannot be assigned and counted towards an assignment total in our gradebook.  So, what to do?

• We could do this on the runestone side as a data entry exercise.  
• I’m planning on building a new question type that is a generic “iframe” question so that any exercise that supports SPLICE could be assigned.
• For PreTeXt books would it make sense that these things find their way into the manifest.  Maybe an  #exercise  that contains an #interactive could find its way into the runestone-manifest.xml file?

Maybe there are other ideas.

Brad

Brad Miller
Professor Emeritus, Luther College
Founder, Runestone Academy LTD
Blog: http://reputablejournal.com

Set up a time to meet with me.

[Andrew Scholer]

For the manifest:

We had a previous discussion kicking around ideas about this:
https://groups.google.com/g/pretext-dev/c/JXoiidF86Do/m/IAk_apdsAQAJ

The final post there was an @grading="splice" in the <interactive>. That still seems reasonable to me. I'm not sure we want to throw interactives that do not have any ability to report interaction or grades into the manifest. Having those visible in the assignment builder, or even worse, having reading assignments attempt to count them, would lead to confusion.

Andrew

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[Bradley Miller]

Thanks Andrew,

I knew this had been discussed at least during drop in a few times.

The @grading=“splice” seems reasonable.  I think the author would also supply an @label and it would be their responsibility to make sure that the implementation of the interactive would also know that id.  Otherwise we would need to implement some kind of messaging to ask for / pass back the label.

Brad

Brad Miller
Professor Emeritus, Luther College
Founder, Runestone Academy LTD
Blog: http://reputablejournal.com

Set up a time to meet with me.

[Andrew Scholer]

Yes, @label would be essential.

I am not sure the component would need to be responsible for passing it. It would be logical to require that the component uses the @label as the "location" param in its reportScoreAndState message (https://cssplice.org/slcp/iframe-protocol-specification.html). But it also seems possible that PTX could bundle the label into the iframe container. When a message is emitted from the iframe, the correct label could be deduced from that.

That later approach might enable an author to take a SPLICE activity that emits grading info, but was not designed with a way to configure the "location" param, and put it in a PTX based book.

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[Rob Beezer]

> Correctly using the SPLICE protocol we can save and restore student answers!!

Congratulations on the work to integrate SPLICE.

> There are now a few different books that are using interactives to build
custom exercises.

Hmmm. I didn't know we were enabling "custom exercises". Which books? And
which #interactive are being used this way? It'd be good to see some examples.

Rob

On 10/16/25 07:24, Bradley Miller wrote:
> Thanks Andrew,
>
> I knew this had been discussed at least during drop in a few times.
>
> The @grading=“splice” seems reasonable.  I think the author would also supply an
> @label and it would be their responsibility to make sure that the implementation
> of the interactive would also know that id.  Otherwise we would need to
> implement some kind of messaging to ask for / pass back the label.
>
> Brad
>
> Brad Miller
> Professor Emeritus, Luther College
> Founder, Runestone Academy LTD
> Blog: http://reputablejournal.com
>

> Set up a time to meet <https://fantastical.app/bonelake-Gj2i/meet-with-
> brad> with me.

>
>
>> On Oct 15, 2025, at 4:15 PM, Bradley Miller <br...@runestone.academy> wrote:
>>
>> There are now a few different books that are using interactives to build
>> custom exercises.  Correctly using the SPLICE protocol we can save and restore
>> student answers!!
>>
>> But without having them in the database they cannot be assigned and counted
>> towards an assignment total in our gradebook.  So, what to do?
>>

>> * We could do this on the runestone side as a data entry exercise.
>> * I’m planning on building a new question type that is a generic “iframe”

>> question so that any exercise that supports SPLICE could be assigned.

>> * For PreTeXt books would it make sense that these things find their way

>> into the manifest.  Maybe an  #exercise  that contains an #interactive
>> could find its way into the runestone-manifest.xml file?
>>
>>
>> Maybe there are other ideas.
>>
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brad Miller
>> Professor Emeritus, Luther College
>> Founder, Runestone Academy LTD
>> Blog: http://reputablejournal.com
>>

>> Set up a time to meet <https://fantastical.app/bonelake-Gj2i/meet-with-
>> brad> with me.

>>
>>
>
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[Bradley Miller]

We are in agreement on the use of the label, however it is deduced.

Rob — See the SPLICE section of the Runestone chapter of the sample book.  Those are the kinds of custom exercises I’m talking about.

Brad Miller
Professor Emeritus, Luther College
Founder, Runestone Academy LTD
Blog: http://reputablejournal.com

Set up a time to meet with me.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pretext-dev/CACm44N-7UXGArpbuGo58dfTioachsYrrMJ6ip_NAk18sHPa1DQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Rob Beezer]

(Sent this several hourts ago. I have a persistent problem with messages not
being sent that I need to resolve. "More later" may now be "soon".)

On 10/16/25 08:03, Bradley Miller wrote:
> Rob — See the SPLICE section of the Runestone chapter of the sample book.  Those
> are the kinds of custom exercises I’m talking about.

Thanks, I forgot we had that. :-(

No good deed goes unpunished. "Figure 5.29.2. Stack pop slideshow" doesn't seem
to render properly? (On Firefox.)

More later. About to step out for the morning.

Rob

[Rob Beezer]

We have interactive, randomized exercises from a variety of sources.


PreTeXt proper - not really, just old-school static questions

Runestone Components - fully integrated by Brad and Rob, FITB reimagined by Brian W

WeBWorK - fully integrated by Alex and Rob, now including raw PG/PGML versions

MyOpenMath - static versions by David L, lots of development by Mark F

STACK - in-progress, Georg and Rob making good progress


In every case there is an attempt to make a particular (consistent) instance as
a "static" version of the dynamic/interactive version available in HTML builds,
ideally as "legal" PreTeXt source to make conversion easy/trivial/automatic.
This makes at least a token attempt to give the reader of print/PDF, EPUB, and
braille, some idea of what a problem is about.

These are all #exercise or PROJECT-LIKE, and therefore amenable to a variety of
features, such as:

- controlling visibility of #hint, #answer, #solution

- a #solutions generator for "back of the book" answers, and more

- a PDF solution manual for distribution to instructors only

- support for a separate (private) repository with solutions only

Now suppose we have an #interactive or #iframe as a child of #exercise. That
may make a lot of sense as a tool for a student to explore some situation
relevant to the rest of the question. Now suppose the #interactive collects
answers. And that #interactive is authored with Doenet, JSXGraph, custom
Javascript, or any other supported language/platform.

I think we have no reliable visibility into that code to be able to support any
of the above features. Unless we can use SLICE somehow to report randomization
and a consistent instance? We already do a poor job (or worse) of representing
a #interactive (or #video, or #audio) in static output formats.

The examples present in the sample book are certainly great exercises for a
computer science textbook. Without too much thought, I can't imagine how to
convert them into static versions in an automated way. Doenet should be on the
above list of integrated random/interactive exercises, but it is not even close
to being ready for that. It is available as an #interactive for the purpose of
showing the reader demonstrations. I would consider it an end-run if this
support for Doenet morphed into some sort of #exercise.

The short answer is that allowing any sort of an #interactive to be an #exercise
strikes me as an HTML-only feature. And if all we are doing is designing
books/markup for HTML output only, then I start to lose interest.

An extreme solution: the presence of certain exercise types means that the only
supported output format is a Runestone build?

Rob

[Bradley Miller]

Rob,

The benefits of allowing interactives like the splice examples are huge in that it unlocks libraries of questions that can be included in a textbook.  It is also an avenue for books like the Dive into Systems book that contain specialized exercises that would not be useful in other books.  Or (what brought this back to my attention) the Quantum Computing textbook that is ready to go, save for us to figure out how they can assign the exercises they have built in interactives, again these exercises would not translate to any other book.  Authors are lined up asking how they can use/assign/grade Doenet questions in their books.  Actively seeking an end run.

I acknowledge that I’ve always had a bias for html output, but IMHO the future is going to be more interactive not less, and I’d like to help find a path where we can support that.  Experiment with new question types without having to design new markup.  And then for those that make sense we design markup later.  Why can’t we take the same path as we do for things and provide a QR code for an interactive?  I think playwright would work just fine for this.   Or a screenshot and a QR code?

I can imagine Runestone only ways to “register” these interactive questions.  But it would be a decent amount of extra work for authors and would inevitably get out of sync with the textbook, so I would really like to avoid that.  Funny how I’ve gone from being very anti-iframe to trying to figure out how to incorporate more of them!

Brad

Brad Miller
Professor Emeritus, Luther College
Founder, Runestone Academy LTD
Blog: http://reputablejournal.com

Set up a time to meet with me.

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[Rob Beezer]

Dear Brad,

I am in agreement with most everything you say here. I see the value of, and
potential for, interactive randomized exercises and agree that HTML is a
superior output format. But EPUB is a great offline format (superior to PDF),
PDF is a great format for producing physical books (some authors do want this),
and braille is essential for some readers (and some laws/regulations).

And I am pleased to see you have decamped from the anti-iFrame crowd. Welcome!
;-) ;-) ;-)

A current #interactive I see as illuminating some topic. Its not going to
work in static formats, and those formats are the worse for that deficiency.
But maybe they are not as critical as graded homework exercises. A screenshot
of an initial state is a really poor substitute for an exercise that a reader is
meant to complete for a class. Technically, I think producing a screenshot and
a QR code would happen already right now. The work might be in disabling all
the features requested, and implemented, for #exercise already. And will
authors end up asking for these features, which I was arguing before are likely
impossible?

I was serious. An #exercise with an #interactive collecting and storing
answers. It only makes sense in HTML output and only makes sense when backed by
a database (i.e. Runestone). So, the presence of such exercises implies a
Runestone-hosted build. Likely very easy to do technically.

> And then for those that make sense we design markup later.

Do we think that is going to happen? ;-) Maybe when it does, and static
versions become possible, then other non-Runestone build targets become possible.

> Authors are lined up asking how they can use/assign/grade Doenet questions in
> their books. Actively seeking an end run.

Then they should talk to the Doenet project about doing the work that has been
done for Runestone, WeBWorK, MyOpenMath, and now STACK. As has been suggested
for years. Having been backed into a corner by WW problems in raw PG/PGML I am
not going down that road again.

Rob

[Bradley Miller]

Rob,

So maybe I went a step too far in suggesting putting it in an #exercise.  I’ll admit I didn’t think through all of the expectations/ramifications you raised.  Maybe as Andrew suggested, having @grading=“splice” on the interactive along with an @label is simply a signal that says please add information about this to the runestone-manifest.  That would not set author expectations about hints/solutions etc.  If/when one of these grows up to become a fully developed component with its own PreTeXt markup then hints/solutions/answers become more important.   As an example, some of the SPLICE examples already have built in ways of interactively providing hints.  So they are there but in a different form, and they are probably getting coded in javascript rather than in a more visible markup.

You are right :-) all Runestone is looking to get out of this is a database entry.

Brad

Brad Miller
Professor Emeritus, Luther College
Founder, Runestone Academy LTD
Blog: http://reputablejournal.com

Set up a time to meet with me.

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[Oscar Levin]

I'm honestly a little perplexed by this discussion.  Back when I was a student, long before the existence of digital textbooks, it was quite common (and reasonable) for math textbooks to have exercises of the sort, "Use a CAS to evaluate the integral and then use the result to answer the question."  I hope we all agree that such a thing should be allowed in a PreTeXt book.  But then what should the HTML output look like?  Why are we telling them to use some external CAS when we could easily and helpfully give them a sage cell to do the computation inside right there in the book?

As a textbook author, I know it can be really great if I don't have to write two versions of a question for different output types.  But I also realize this is not always possible.  A scaffolded problem in WeBWorK just might not be appropriate for a static version of the book.  So in those cases I expect that I should write two versions (and have done so for DMOI).  I try to make them equivalent in spirit.  It would be great if there was an easy way to add a non-disruptive QR code to "try online" to such exercises, but I'm not wishing for ponies right now.

For Doenet, I would expect that every interactive Doenet exercise would get paired with a PreTeXt-authored version that is appropriate for a student to solve off line.  One day, if Doenet wants my continued business, they should make this process easier or automated, but we are all busy.  

Wait, that just gave me an idea!  What if #exercise and #project-like had a new child (or maybe just attribute) that pointed to the "activated" version of the problem to be displayed in an iframe.  Just like webwork does, but now for all interactive exercises?  Only a horrible person would author such an exercise without any "static" content, since that would look bad in all output formats.  The First-Class-Citizen dynamic exercises are just providing the valid PreTeXt static version for the author (which makes them better, but doing so is not necessary).

Oscar

 

"Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" -- Voltaire

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[Rob Beezer]

I'm perplexed, too. (Just kidding.)

Along the lines of some of Oscar's comments, I'd been thinking about versions.
PreTeXt support for versions.

More later - I gotta go do some overdue PROTEUS stuff. And then there is
major-league baseball.

Rob

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[Duane Nykamp]

Just what to chime in that the Doenet team is well aware of how much more work we have to do to get a reasonable static representation (by having a pure PreTeXt output). Our tiny team is working on a number of critical changes, and progress has been very slow on the static output.

That said, we're open to any contributions in writing PreTeXt renderers for our components or determining what static representations should be! :)

Speaking of Oscar's solution of writing two versions, we may be faced that need anyway due to accessibility mandates. Been hearing about places that are going to prohibit faculty from using any platforms that don't have vendor attestations for full accessibility (to avoid getting sued). Figuring out accessible interactive experiences seems a long way off, so maybe one will need to provide an accessible non-interactive solution in the meantime.

Duane

[Rob Beezer]

> when we could easily and helpfully give them a sage cell to do the
computation inside right there in the book?

You've lost me here. We can do that right now. At issue, among other things,
is a plethora of interactives, whose #answer (and maybe #hint and #solution) are
buried in some HTML-specific way (Javascript), thus invisible to any other
conversion to a less-capable output format.

> As a textbook author, I know it can be really great if I don't have to write
two versions of a question for different output types.

I had not realized that some folks were writing two versions of a problem, and I
think you've beat me to it on that idea.

Rob

On 10/16/25 14:52, Oscar Levin wrote:

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[Rob Beezer]

> all Runestone is looking to get out of this is a database entry.

Well, I think you (or more properly, all those authors in that line outside
*your* door) want that to behave like an #exercise. On the assignment page,
in-context, numbered, titled, etc. And then my concern is what happens with all
the exercise-machinery to deal with answers and solutions (with all the
flexibility that has been requested and implemented for exercises already).

Rob

On 10/16/25 14:40, Bradley Miller wrote:
> Rob,
>
> So maybe I went a step too far in suggesting putting it in an #exercise.  I’ll
> admit I didn’t think through all of the expectations/ramifications you raised.
>  Maybe as Andrew suggested, having @grading=“splice” on the interactive along
> with an @label is simply a signal that says please add information about this to
> the runestone-manifest.  That would not set author expectations about hints/
> solutions etc.  If/when one of these grows up to become a fully developed
> component with its own PreTeXt markup then hints/solutions/answers become more
> important.   As an example, some of the SPLICE examples already have built in
> ways of interactively providing hints.  So they are there but in a different
> form, and they are probably getting coded in javascript rather than in a more
> visible markup.
>
> You are right :-) all Runestone is looking to get out of this is a database entry.
>
> Brad
>
> Brad Miller
> Professor Emeritus, Luther College
> Founder, Runestone Academy LTD
> Blog: http://reputablejournal.com
>

> Set up a time to meet <https://fantastical.app/bonelake-Gj2i/meet-with-
> brad> with me.
>
>
>> On Oct 16, 2025, at 3:43 PM, 'Rob Beezer' via PreTeXt development <pretext-

> to pretext-dev...@googlegroups.com <mailto:pretext-
> dev+uns...@googlegroups.com>.

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> B620-3B1864C81E02%40runestone.academy?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Rob Beezer]

OK, something to try on for size. I thought maybe strict version support could
provide a solution, but Oscar's post got me thinking. Make it clear there is an
exercise with a purpose and an interactive version, and expect the author to
provide an alternate static version. It begins with markup. Always.

exercise
title
dynamic
statement
static
statement
hint
answer
solution

* dynamic/statement could hold an #interactive that reports out via SPLICE.

* I put #title where I did to be provacative. Not sure if that is right or not.

* #static would be really static. Old-school PreTeXt "free-response", not
multiple-choice, not WW, etc.

* I'm not sure what the children of #dynamic should be. Perhaps no more than
#statement?

* An author in the "I only care about HTML" camp would need to put at least a
token #p in dynamic/statement: "If you were reading the HTML version you would
find a cool interative problem here."

* There is precedent of sorts. An #interactive supports a #static child that
allows replacment by most any PreTeXt you like: images, #p, etc.


The pre-processor categorizes #exercise and PROJECT-LIKE very early. There are
obvious sugnals in teh above. Later, it makes dynamic and static
representations. That split could be easy with the markup above. The resulting
exercises would be rather tightly coupled - same title, same number, etc. So
things like being a target of a #xref will behave. And for now, the #dynamic
version would just lack any #answer to migrate to the back-of-the-book, etc.

> It would be great if there was an easy way to add a non-disruptive QR code to

"try online" to such exercises, but I'm not wishing for ponies right now.

Don't you always get your ponies, Oscar? The QR code might be straightfowrard
to manufacture. Making it big enough to be reliable and small enough to be
non-disruptive is the pony.

Rob

[Oscar Levin]

I really like the direction this is going.  What if I want a hint to apply to both the static and dynamic version?  Not a huge deal, but perhaps the scheme could be

Exercise

  Title

  Statement/@dynamic="yes"

  Statement

  Hint

I'm thinking @dynamic="no" is default.  

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[Rob Beezer]

Thanks, Oscar.

I'm partial to the very explicit #dynamic/#static, rather than having every
#statement endure the possibility of an irrelevant attribute. Yes, it should go
away after the pre-processor sees it. And I think it allows things like:

exercise
title
dynamic
statement
static

title
statement
hint
answer
solution
solution

In other words, some elements can be hierachical, like exercise/title, with an
override in exercise/static/title. And SOLUTION-LIKE can accumulate,
exercise/static would have two #solution, one of which is common.

I'm not saying I like all those ideas, just arguing for possibilities the
structure enables. In particular, would the two question variants really share
an identical #hint? I would not have expected that.

Rob

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[Rob Beezer]

Dear Duane,

Thanks for your note. I meant to reply sooner. More in a minute about this thread.

You might watch closely how work is going with the integration of STACK (-dev
discussion, GitHub pull requests). I think that process will have a lot in
common with how it may go with Doenet.

And, yes, those highly interesrted in Doenet would make good volunteers to work
on this. Our team is tiny, too!

Rob

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[Rob Beezer]

OK, I have roughed out a #exercise with a #dynamic/#static split. Lots of
necessary infrastructure is already in place, so it didn't take long.
Accomplished in the pre-processor so it looks like an authored version when the
conversions begin. Not merged.

The #dynamic version can can go into the Runestone manifest, as yet another
#exercise. So should behave on the assignment page, etc. automatically.

* What should be allowed/encouraged in the #dynamic/#statement of this exercise?

* If a SPLICE-enabled #interactive is present (juast one?), how does it go into
the manifest? I need concrete guidance here.

* What should the #static look like? Old-fashioned PreTeXt free-response
question? Note that it is silly (impossible) to have certain HTML-centric
items, like say a #video. Since there will not be an HTML render of the #static
version. We could make a (option) for a QR code/link to the #dynamic version.

Rob