PB vs. VB comparisons
Tim Byford
Does anyone out there use both tools? I don't want to start a massive
argument thread here, but I have some questions for you.
I haven't used VB since V4.0, when I was also using PB 5.0. Back then, I
dismissed VB for poor data access and lack of inheritance.
I want to know about the current state of the competition. A VP at one
of my clients is a Microsoft biggot ("Is there another software
company?"). Unfortunately, I can't honestly compare (and debate) the two
products as they exist today.
Please share your "Current" Powerbuilder vs. Visual Basic comparisons.
Thank you,
Tim
Tim Byford
Tim
Craig Wagner
[Reply posted to group and cc: to author as a courtesy (if no 'spam guard')]
Please do not reply directly to the e-mail
>I haven't used VB since V4.0, when I was also using PB 5.0. Back then, I
>dismissed VB for poor data access and lack of inheritance.
It still doesn't support inheritance fully. Although if you talk to a VB
developer that's a 'good thing' because with inheritance if you make a change in
one place it affects everything. Funny, I thought that was the point of
inheritance.
The data access still isn't as easy to code as the datawindow in my opinion.
Microsoft added a nice SQL painter for v6.0, which of course they're trumpeting
as a wonder of technology even though it's nearly identical to the datawindow
SQL painter that PB developers have been using for almost 10 years.
Don't get me wrong, I like Microsoft products and VB. I'm just getting sick and
tired how MS tries to rewrite the computer industry in their own image (OO
doesn't need inheritance, look at the great SQL painter we created, we invented
the internet...).
---
Craig Wagner | E-mail: wag...@teleport.com
Certified PowerBuilder | Web: http://www.teleport.com/~wagnerc
Developer Professional | Phone: (503) 452-6343
and Instructor | Portland, OR USA
Johnny Starck
Craig Wagner wrote:
> Don't get me wrong, I like Microsoft products and VB. I'm just getting sick and
> tired how MS tries to rewrite the computer industry in their own image (OO
> doesn't need inheritance, look at the great SQL painter we created, we invented
> the internet...).
> ---
> Craig Wagner | E-mail: wag...@teleport.com
> Certified PowerBuilder | Web: http://www.teleport.com/~wagnerc
> Developer Professional | Phone: (503) 452-6343
> and Instructor | Portland, OR USA
You like M$ products ? I'm very pleased to see that there still exists some
developping tools not totally involved in the M$ galaxy, like PB or Delphi...
When I see a dozen of daily crashes with Win95 and only a little less with NT,
when I see the new IE 5 Goliath making the trouble in my vital dll's in comparison
with
a David like Opera, when I fear the coming of the mammoth Win2000 in ... 1901 ...,
I pray for a quick and incredible development of new Linux-based tools.
Long life to StarOffice, KDE, Oracle & PB in Linux.
M$ can be praised for the introduction of a PC in almost every family of developped
countries,
but now it's time for efficacity, stability and accuracy. These are not precisely M$
qualities...
Regards,
Johnny.
Still not working in one of Big Brother's
companies
Roland Smith
Bret A. Bartz
I have to disagree that PB's debugger is nearly as good as VB's. I think it
has a long way to go.
* In VB you can jump into debug mode while running the app in development,
and on errors it will prompt you with an option to debug.
* In VB you can change script in debug mode
* In VB you can simply place your cursor over a variable to see its value
To my knowledge, none of this is possible in PB's debugger. Now that I've
said that, I must say that VB's debugger and use of intellisense (now avail
with PB 7.0) are the only advantages over PB. The use of OO and the
datawindow still make PB the tool of choice for me. IMHO
Prabodh's message may have mentioned some of this, but the formatting made
it difficult to read.
Bret
Prabodh wrote in message ...
>This is what I found in some tech magazine.
>It may help you.
>
>
>Comparison of Visual Basic 5 to PowerBuilder 6
>Item Visual Basic 5
>PowerBuilder 6
>*Development environment*
> (drag & drop painters, editor, debugger)
> yes
>yes and the PB6 debugger is
>
>finally nearly as good as VB's.
>Script language VBScript seems to
>have fewer specialized command to
>manipulate controls
>(i.e. comparable to DataWindows).
> -
>includes script-level system error
>
>handling (instead of
>
>PB's application-level) PowerScript
> is
>more strongly typed, requiring
>
>explicit declaration and conversions.
>*Source Control *
>Includes SourceSafe
>Source Control.
>
>Includes integrated ObjectCycle
>
>Source Control tool (much improved
> in
>PB6).
>*Reporting *
>Reporting is available in a
>packaged third party tool called
>Crystal reports.
>
>Reporting capability is built into
>
>DataWindows.
>*Support for latest controls *
>(tabs, trees, listviews)
> yes yes
>*Data repository*
> yes yes
>*Documentation *
>Good documentation and help.
>A number of code samples are
>also provided. Mediocre
>documentation and help.
>
>Extensive code samples and sample
>
>applications.
>*Bundled database*
>MS Access (stripped down)
>
SQL
>Server Developer's edition
>
>(with Enterprise edition).
>
>Sybase SQL Anywhere
>
>*3 Tier Support*
>yes
yes
>*DBMS support*
>ODBC + native drivers for most major
>DBMS's ODBC +
>native drivers for
>
>major DBMS's
>*Machine code compilation*
>yes
yes
>*Performance*
>Painting and script performance is faster.
>Database access is slightly faster.
>Internet Can create ActiveX controls
>and documents for the Internet.
>Also provides controls for Internet
>transfer with http and ftp.
Provides
>
>various Intermet capabilities ranging
>
>from "fat" (Windows Plug-in) to "thin"
>
>(Web PB).
>Object Oriented Support
>Encapsulation but no inheritance.
>An unusual polymorphism
>mechanism is provided (the "Implements" feature).
>Overloading and overriding are not supported.
>
>Full encapsulation,
>
>inheritance and polymorphism
>
>(overriding & overloading).
>
>Learning Curve shorter longer
>*Third Party Tools*
>VB product has fewer and simpler native
>controls but many
>3rd party add-ons are available.
>In terms of quality, 3rd party tools are
>buyer beware (many are not as well
>tested as VB itself, have poorer
>documentation and ongoing
>upgrades are not assured). Several
>modeling tools
>
>work well with PowerBuilder
>
>(e.g. Rational Rose, How).
>
>Several third parties development
>
>tools are available most notably
>
>framework extensions to PFC.
>
>Since they are largely written
>
>in PowerScript,
>
>they can be "taken over"
>
>should the vendor cease support.
>*Components Specialized to Microsoft vision:*
>COM/DCOM, ActiveX. Can generate
>C & C++ proxies, Java proxies,
>Corba components, COM/DCOM components.
>General Vision VB provides smooth support
>for items within its own vision
>(COM/DCOM, ActiveX, OLE, 32-bit Windows).
>However, platforms and standards
>outside its vision (e.g. Unix, Corba) are
>not supported. This limits VB as
>other major vendors pursue alternate
>visions (e.g. major DBMS vendors).
>
>PowerBuilder tries to remain
>
>"open" and support a variety
>
>of platforms, DBMS's and standards.
>
>With broader coverage,
>
>its coverage of specific
>
>Microsoft standards
>
>(e.g. COM, ActiveX)
>
>are functional but not
>
>always as slick.
>*Suitability for Smaller Applications*
> For really quick & dirty apps, VB's
>Data Form Designer lets a person
>create simple one-table maintenance app
>in as little as 5-10 minutes.
>This sort of facility means a power-user
>could learn the basics of VB to create simple apps.
>In general, VB is well suited to creating
>quick prototypes and rapidly
>turning them into simple applications.
>
>Small applications can be built
> in
>PowerBuilder but its learning longer
>
>curve means that it is not the
>
best
>tool if only small applications areneeded.
>
Suitability
>for Larger Applications
> More
>explicit tradeoff, in terms of
> speeding
>development time and getting
> good
>performance and "nice" interface.
>
>
>While large applications are possible in VB,
> you must decide:
>- should I use Data Controls and get this
>app developed quickly (with the
>idiosyncrasies and lack of control
>with Data Control) or should I use
>DAO/RDO (single DB connect, more control)
>and have to do much more manual
>coding (moving text to/from control,
>manually loading listboxes & comboboxes,
> etc.) More suitable for large projects:
> -
PBLs
>provide a natural method
> to
>break down and organize objects
> -
>Object oriented capabilities
>
>combined with frameworks
> (e.g.
>PFC) greatly
>
reduce
>the amount of code
> that
>needs to be
>
>written and maintained.
>*Other Unique Advantages*
>Users could be expected to
>learn and use this tool
>(perhaps this is why VB is
>avoiding true OO support). Datawindows give many
>
>built-in features
>
>(ItemChanged, 4 buffers,
>
>"dirty" ind. for whole DW).
> It
>makes obtaining and
>
>manipulating data easier.
>Provides a standard language
>called VB for Applications (VBA)
> for those who build macros
>(e.g. in MS Office Suite).
>In other words, if you're
>building macros (VBA) and
>applications (VB), the language is
>basically the same.
>
Shipped
>with a comprehensive
> set of
>base classes (PowerBuilder
>
>Foundation Classes - PFC)
> which
>add much PowerSoft-supported
>
>functionality and greatly reduce
>
development
>time.
>Translation toolkit provides a
>powerful way to create application in
>many languages while maintaining a
>single "source" language application.
>Price $1200 for Enterprise edition,
>$500 for Professional Edition. Excludes
>cost of third party tools which are
>usually needed for more complex
>applications.
> $3000
>for Enterprise edition,
> $1200
>for Professional Edition. Price difference could be a
> factor for occasional development..
>For dedicated developer(s), it represents less than 3% of the typical cost
>for the developer over the first year.
>
>**Selecting a Development Tool**
>
>The two tools can be complementary in an organization -- with VB aimed at
>smaller applications which are purely Windows/Microsoft focused while PB
>is used for heavy-duty Enterprise development where OO development
>techniques and frameworks make a big payoff.
>
>Many organizations will decide that one client/server development tool is
>enough. Where this is the case, consider:
>
>if the organization wants one tool that can be used for Office tool macros,
>end-user development and IS development (all in 32-bit Windows), then
>Visual Basic provides this capability.
>if the organization wants one tool for all IS development projects that is
>useful for small projects and scales well to large projects then
>PowerBuilder will work well.
>While the various client/server tools will provide various Internet
>"capabilities", remember that these are client/server tools first and
>Internet development tools second. If you need a tool for a pure Internet
>application, you will probably find that a tool that is primarily Internet
>focused will serve you better on the client side.
>
>Thanks for reading.
>
>Regards
>Prabodh
>
>
>Tim Byford wrote in message <371D4084...@yahoo.com>...
>>Hi,
>>
>>Does anyone out there use both tools? I don't want to start a massive
>>argument thread here, but I have some questions for you.
>>
>>I haven't used VB since V4.0, when I was also using PB 5.0. Back then, I
>>dismissed VB for poor data access and lack of inheritance.
>>
Bill Green
Just to update your info - PB's debugger includes "Just in time"
debugging which automatically invokes the debugger when a system error
occurs (not just GPF's either <g>), and this has proven very helpful to
me. Also, you can write code ( DebugBreak() ) which will invoke the
debugger whenever you want it to.
Also I can see all the variables I need by adjusting the debugger
display to show my Instance and Local variables all the time, so the 3rd
point is really mute as far as I'm concerned. I do wish we could change
script while debugging, but it's not possible with the object model
used.
PB7 does add the ability to set debug breakpoints directly from the
development environment though.
regards,
BG
Roy Kiesler [TeamPS]
Bret,
It's better in the sense that you don't need to scroll through the object
list to find the object, and then set the breakpoint - you simply code the
DebugBreak, fire the application from the debugger and wait for that
DebugBreak call to execute.
--
pbm_hopethishelps,
Roy Kiesler [TeamPS]
Bret A. Bartz <bba...@solutechinc.com> wrote in message
news:#rHXmpDj#GA....@forums.sybase.com...
> Thanks for updating me! One question though. How is the DebugBreak()
> functionality any improvement over setting a breakpoint? Having the
ability
> in VB to hit ctrl+break to enter debug mode has really been useful.
>
> Bret
>
> Bill Green wrote in message <371E3A99...@jpmorgan.com>...
> >Just to update your info - PB's debugger includes "Just in time"
> >debugging which automatically invokes the debugger when a system error
> >occurs (not just GPF's either <g>), and this has proven very helpful to
> >me. Also, you can write code ( DebugBreak() ) which will invoke the
> >debugger whenever you want it to.
> >
> >Also I can see all the variables I need by adjusting the debugger
> >display to show my Instance and Local variables all the time, so the 3rd
> >point is really mute as far as I'm concerned. I do wish we could change
> >script while debugging, but it's not possible with the object model
> >used.
> >
> >PB7 does add the ability to set debug breakpoints directly from the
> >development environment though.
> >
> >
> >regards,
> >BG
> >
> >
> >"Bret A. Bartz" wrote:
> >>
Bret A. Bartz
Thanks for updating me! One question though. How is the DebugBreak()
functionality any improvement over setting a breakpoint? Having the ability
in VB to hit ctrl+break to enter debug mode has really been useful.
Bret
Bill Green wrote in message <371E3A99...@jpmorgan.com>...
>Just to update your info - PB's debugger includes "Just in time"
>debugging which automatically invokes the debugger when a system error
>occurs (not just GPF's either <g>), and this has proven very helpful to
>me. Also, you can write code ( DebugBreak() ) which will invoke the
>debugger whenever you want it to.
>
>Also I can see all the variables I need by adjusting the debugger
>display to show my Instance and Local variables all the time, so the 3rd
>point is really mute as far as I'm concerned. I do wish we could change
>script while debugging, but it's not possible with the object model
>used.
>
>PB7 does add the ability to set debug breakpoints directly from the
>development environment though.
>
>
>regards,
>BG
>
>
>"Bret A. Bartz" wrote:
>>
Bret A. Bartz
Makes sense. Thanks.
Roy Kiesler [TeamPS] wrote in message ...
>Bret,
>
>It's better in the sense that you don't need to scroll through the object
>list to find the object, and then set the breakpoint - you simply code the
>DebugBreak, fire the application from the debugger and wait for that
>DebugBreak call to execute.
>
>--
>pbm_hopethishelps,
>Roy Kiesler [TeamPS]
>
>
>Bret A. Bartz <bba...@solutechinc.com> wrote in message
>news:#rHXmpDj#GA....@forums.sybase.com...
>> Thanks for updating me! One question though. How is the DebugBreak()
>> functionality any improvement over setting a breakpoint? Having the
>ability
>> in VB to hit ctrl+break to enter debug mode has really been useful.
>>
>> Bret
>>
>> Bill Green wrote in message <371E3A99...@jpmorgan.com>...
>> >Just to update your info - PB's debugger includes "Just in time"
>> >debugging which automatically invokes the debugger when a system error
>> >occurs (not just GPF's either <g>), and this has proven very helpful to
>> >me. Also, you can write code ( DebugBreak() ) which will invoke the
>> >debugger whenever you want it to.
>> >
>> >Also I can see all the variables I need by adjusting the debugger
>> >display to show my Instance and Local variables all the time, so the 3rd
>> >point is really mute as far as I'm concerned. I do wish we could change
>> >script while debugging, but it's not possible with the object model
>> >used.
>> >
>> >PB7 does add the ability to set debug breakpoints directly from the
>> >development environment though.
>> >
>> >
>> >regards,
>> >BG
>> >
>> >
>> >"Bret A. Bartz" wrote:
>> >>
Dave Fish [Team PS]
Now we all know that Al Gore invented the Internet. <g>
Regards,
Dave Fish [Team Powersoft]
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:10:47 -0500, wag...@teleport.com (Craig
Wagner) wrote:
>Tim Byford <Tim.B...@cibcinsurance.com> wrote:
>[Reply posted to group and cc: to author as a courtesy (if no 'spam guard')]
>Please do not reply directly to the e-mail
>
>>I haven't used VB since V4.0, when I was also using PB 5.0. Back then, I
>>dismissed VB for poor data access and lack of inheritance.
>
>It still doesn't support inheritance fully. Although if you talk to a VB
>developer that's a 'good thing' because with inheritance if you make a change in
>one place it affects everything. Funny, I thought that was the point of
>inheritance.
>
>The data access still isn't as easy to code as the datawindow in my opinion.
>Microsoft added a nice SQL painter for v6.0, which of course they're trumpeting
>as a wonder of technology even though it's nearly identical to the datawindow
>SQL painter that PB developers have been using for almost 10 years.
>
Prabodh
handling (instead of
Includes integrated ObjectCycle
(with Enterprise edition).
Sybase SQL Anywhere
various Intermet capabilities ranging
Full encapsulation,
inheritance and polymorphism
(overriding & overloading).
work well with PowerBuilder
(e.g. Rational Rose, How).
Several third parties development
framework extensions to PFC.
in PowerScript,
PowerBuilder tries to remain
With broader coverage,
its coverage of specific
Microsoft standards
(e.g. COM, ActiveX)
are functional but not
built-in features
(ItemChanged, 4 buffers,
**Selecting a Development Tool**
Thanks for reading.
Regards
Prabodh
>I haven't used VB since V4.0, when I was also using PB 5.0. Back then, I
>dismissed VB for poor data access and lack of inheritance.
>
oliver.w...@sg.cec.be
Johnny Starck <jo...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> Craig Wagner wrote:
>
> > Don't get me wrong, I like Microsoft products and VB. I'm just getting sick
and
> > tired how MS tries to rewrite the computer industry in their own image (OO
> > doesn't need inheritance, look at the great SQL painter we created, we
invented
> > the internet...).
> > ---
> > Craig Wagner | E-mail: wag...@teleport.com
> > Certified PowerBuilder | Web: http://www.teleport.com/~wagnerc
> > Developer Professional | Phone: (503) 452-6343
> > and Instructor | Portland, OR USA
>
> developping tools not totally involved in the M$ galaxy, like PB or Delphi...
>
> When I see a dozen of daily crashes with Win95 and only a little less with NT,
> when I see the new IE 5 Goliath making the trouble in my vital dll's in
comparison
> with
> a David like Opera, when I fear the coming of the mammoth Win2000 in ... 1901
...,
> I pray for a quick and incredible development of new Linux-based tools.
> Long life to StarOffice, KDE, Oracle &
> PB in Linux.
Can you send me a copy, please ;-)
> M$ can be praised for the introduction of a PC in almost every family of
developped
> countries,
> but now it's time for efficacity, stability and accuracy. These are not
precisely M$
> qualities...
>
> Regards,
> Johnny.
> Still not working in one of Big
Brother's
> companies
>
>
--
Oliver Willandsen
European Commission - http://europa.eu.int
All comments represent my own opinion and may not in any circumstance
be regarded as stating an official position of the European Commission
Internet Fiesta - http://www.internet-fiesta.org
European Union Institutions - http://www.europa.eu.int/inst-en.htm
All comments represent my own opinion and may not in any circumstance
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Joe "Nuke Me Xemu" Foster
>Tim Byford <Tim.B...@cibcinsurance.com> wrote:
>[Reply posted to group and cc: to author as a courtesy (if no 'spam guard')]
>Please do not reply directly to the e-mail
>>I haven't used VB since V4.0, when I was also using PB 5.0. Back then, I
>>dismissed VB for poor data access and lack of inheritance.
>It still doesn't support inheritance fully. Although if you talk to a VB
>developer that's a 'good thing' because with inheritance if you make a change in
>one place it affects everything. Funny, I thought that was the point of
>inheritance.
Huh? Sometimes that's exactly what you want, though! The ClassAssist addin
<http://www.shersoft.com/> does give full inheritance to VB's classes and
controls, though.
>The data access still isn't as easy to code as the datawindow in my opinion.
>Microsoft added a nice SQL painter for v6.0, which of course they're trumpeting
>as a wonder of technology even though it's nearly identical to the datawindow
>SQL painter that PB developers have been using for almost 10 years.
VB's DataControl has plenty of problems. I ended up writing my own database
routines and control bindings. An early version is available at my homepage
at <http://members.ricochet.net/~jfoster/>. VB's SQL painter is pretty much
ripped out of Access, which dates back to 1993 or so.
>Don't get me wrong, I like Microsoft products and VB. I'm just getting sick and
>tired how MS tries to rewrite the computer industry in their own image (OO
>doesn't need inheritance, look at the great SQL painter we created, we invented
>the internet...).
VB's "interface inheritance" doesn't quite cut it, but there is a third-
party solution. MS must have subcontracted the Internet out to Al Gore!
--
Joe Foster <mailto:jfo...@ricochet.net> Space Cooties! <http://www.xenu.net/>
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!
Bill Green
Beat me to it :) Just to clarify one point - Debugbreak() function calls
do not require that you run the app from the debugger. You can run it
normally and it will invoke the debugger when executed. So, it's a
little different than setting a breakpoint and running the debugger.
It also allows you to do things like DebugBreak() on certin conditions
such as perhaps a debug object being present, or a datawindow column
value etc.
regards,
Bill
> > >> I have to disagree that PB's debugger is nearly as good as VB's. I
> think
> > it
> > >> has a long way to go.
> > >>
> > >> * In VB you can jump into debug mode while running the app in
> > development,
> > >> and on errors it will prompt you with an option to debug.
> > >> * In VB you can change script in debug mode
> > >> * In VB you can simply place your cursor over a variable to see its
> value
> > >>
> > >> To my knowledge, none of this is possible in PB's debugger. Now that
> I've
> > >> said that, I must say that VB's debugger and use of intellisense (now
> > avail
> > >> with PB 7.0) are the only advantages over PB. The use of OO and the
> > >> datawindow still make PB the tool of choice for me. IMHO
> > >>
> >
> >
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bill Green[TeamPS - retired] | http://www.teamps.com
Power3 - Custom Training | http://www.power3.com
New: Software Quality Practice using Cyrano et al
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Roy Kiesler [TeamPS]
On my machine, 6.5/444 it only works from the debugger. I still use it quite
often, though.
Roy
Bill Green <green_...@jpmorgan.com> wrote in message
news:371F882B...@jpmorgan.com...
> > > >> I have to disagree that PB's debugger is nearly as good as VB's. I
> > think
> > > it
> > > >> has a long way to go.
> > > >>
> > > >> * In VB you can jump into debug mode while running the app in
> > > development,
> > > >> and on errors it will prompt you with an option to debug.
> > > >> * In VB you can change script in debug mode
> > > >> * In VB you can simply place your cursor over a variable to see its
> > value
> > > >>
> > > >> To my knowledge, none of this is possible in PB's debugger. Now
that
> > I've
> > > >> said that, I must say that VB's debugger and use of intellisense
(now
> > > avail
> > > >> with PB 7.0) are the only advantages over PB. The use of OO and the
> > > >> datawindow still make PB the tool of choice for me. IMHO
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
>