Jim;
You wrote:
> The Earth continuously experiences 173,000 TW of solar power across a broad
> spectrum of EM from a continuously changing source direction. Now, how does
> the potential of unintentional harmonics from SSP transmission systems
> designed 20-40 years in the future affect the natural noise environment
> produced by the Sun?
While the Sun puts out a lot of EM power, the intensity of that power varies quite a lot with frequency. As this plot shows:
the intensity peaks in the visible part of the spectrum, and drops off enormously at microwave wavelengths (2.45 GHz has a wavelength of 0.122 m = 122,000,000 nm, way off the right hand side of that graph). I’d have to do some digging and some analysis to work out the amount of solar power contained within the bandwidth of the carrier wave transmitted from an SPS (depends entirely on how tight a band that beam can be constrained into); but the main point is that the Sun is actually very quiet at microwave frequencies.
> For that matter, how does the leakage from hundreds of
> million of microwave ovens impact the transmission environment?
Microwave ovens are actually pretty well-shielded. From https://www.fda.gov/radiation-emitting-products/resources-you-radiation-emitting-products/microwave-ovens:
A Federal standard (21 CFR 1030.10) limits the amount of microwaves that can leak from an oven throughout its lifetime to 5 milliwatts (mW) of microwave radiation per square centimeter at approximately 2 inches from the oven surface. This limit is far below the level known to harm people. Microwave energy also decreases dramatically as you move away from the source of radiation. A measurement made 20 inches from an oven would be approximately 1/100th of the value measured at 2 inches from the oven.
At 20 inches from the device, this is much lower than the intensity in the main lobe of an SPS (10-100 mW/cm^2), indeed down to about the intensity of the peak of the first sidelobe for some SPS designs. Once you get a few metres away, it’ll be much lower still.
While there are many microwave ovens in the world, they’re pretty widely distributed --- not millions of them sitting side by side. Whereas the microwave radiation in an SPS’s sidelobe would cover many square kilometres. So, the net amount of “stray” radiation (outside the rectenna farm’s safety fence) from an SPS’s sidelobes, at the main microwave transmission frequency, would be quite a bit larger than that from microwave ovens. And as Keith points out, there’d also be some amount of power being radiated from thee SPS at other frequencies, due to harmonics generated in the transmitter --- while the main frequency can be chosen to be in a band that is not used for primary communications applications (e.g., 2.45 GHz or 4.5 GHz, both in Industrial, Science and Medicine Bands), the harmonics would create interference for various users in other primary comms bands.
Another point is that the power at the primary frequency, when it hits the Earth, will hit not just the rectenna, but also numerous other structures (because the main beam and its sidelobes cover so much area). And many of those structures (bridges, buildings, transmission towers, etc.) will include conductive parts (which will act as receiving antennas), connected by non-linear conductive joints, which will act as diodes. And, there will be RF sources from other transmitters at other frequencies (the RF spectrum is awash with users) that will also impinge on those. The nonlinear joints will cause the signals from the SPS and the other RF sources to mix (i.e., intermodulate), and then re-radiate at various sum and difference frequencies --- creating interference at even more frequencies.
That’s what radio physics tells us. The only way to tell how big an issue this could be, is to build a pilot plant, to investigate these effects at scale. It is entirely plausible that the result will be that SPS’s will create so much RF interference, that humanity will have to choose between getting power from space, and using the RF spectrum for communications --- that would be a very difficult choice, as both applications produce enormous benefits to humanity, and also each support an immense amount of economic activities (and profits). If it comes to that, expect major political fights.
Alternately, it’s quite possible that the RF interference issues turn out to be manageable. We need to try it and see (preferably in a remote location, for the first rectenna site).
(I don't particularly disagree with your other points.)
- Kieran
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Thank you for this additional information on microwave ovens.
Such RF interference issues/considerations are secondary, IMO, to the primary issue I raised about global peace and prosperity in a time of diminishing fossil carbon fuel resources and a rising atmospheric CO2 level.
If we had to go back to hard-wired phones (now fiber-connected like I still have) and lose wireless outside-the-house comm, is that tragic? Everyone would still have Wi-Fi inside everywhere? They would still have AM/FM in the cars?
Those that argue for the priority of wireless comm over SSP must propose a quantitative-based, scalable, practicable, global sustainable energy solution that enables a peaceful world by 2100. Terrestrial renewables can’t do it. I explained why nuclear fission can’t. We are left with SSP.
Attached is a map showing the land area needed for global SSP in 2100. Is RF interference really an issue?
Mike Snead, PE
The world needs an orderly transition to sustainable energy for some 10 billion by 2100. Fossil carbon fuels will continue to be our primary energy source while we transition. Thus, we will continue to emit CO2. (The cycle time of CO2 molecules out of the air into the ocean is about 16 years or so based on C-14 measurements from the above ground atomic tests.)
CO2 levels below about 225 PPM are dangerous as plants begin to die. (The last 8 periods of glaciation came very close to plant CO2 death levels.)
CO2 near 1000 PPM appears to have measurable harmful effects on humans.
My assumption is that limiting the level of 500-600 ppm, with good engineering, will provide a buffer on both sides against levels that would be harmful. This however highlights the need to aggressively pursue SSP. It does no good to try to limit today’s CO2 emissions, through draconian regulations, without undertaking an orderly transition to global sustainable energy sufficient to give everyone a prosperous middle-class standard of living. Folks will resist such efforts as we are now seeing. The “Green New Deal” people just don’t understand this (or ignore this for political reasons) as they push ineffective wind and ground solar power or the illusion of peaceful nuclear fission power.
Mike Snead, PE
Jim;
I quite agree that there would be many benefits to putting in place lots of SPS’s. They might even help put a dent in the amount of CO2 going into the atmosphere, and certainly many people would think that a good thing (to put it in the mildest terms possible).
It is also obvious the all of the useable RF spectrum is in heavy use, all over the world, for a great many applications. Many people would oppose having to give up “their” RF application(s) --- just as many people don’t give a fig about global warming. In particular, many of the RF applications have huge capital investments tied up in them, and are huge money-makers for the shareholders of the companies involved, the directors of which would have a fiduciary duty to oppose by any means possible (e.g., via lobbying politicians, and (in the USA) bribing them outright (via PACs)) any attempt to allow SPS’s that would interfere with their commercial comms applications.
So, there’d be a fight. Lots of fights, really.
Now, maybe the SPS proponents would win those fights. Maybe not. The fact is that the current RF-based commercial operations have lots of money to spend, and SPS proponents have virtually none, and in court cases (as in political contests) the rich pretty much always win.
SPS proponents would have a much better chance of winning the fights, if they had some evidence regarding the actual sort of RF interference that SPS’s would cause. Which is why a crucial first step is to put in place a pilot-plant SPS in orbit, and rectenna farm on the ground, to conduct RF interference tests. (Also to investigate the extent to which local wildlife is affected by the microwave beam --- another environmental issue that cannot be hand-waved away, but hopefully will turn out to be OK once evidence has been gathered.) This is a good and noble goal for governments to undertake.
- Kieran
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I go into detail on my quantitative estimates for the US in a four-part article at the Space Review in 2022. Here is a kindly published list of my Space Review articles: https://muckrack.com/mike-snead/articles
My world estimate is based on 10 billion people having a 2019 EU per person energy use of entirely sustainable energy—a combination of clean electrical power and clean CO2-neutral carbon fuels. Essentially, this means having the same standard of living as today but just using clean energy. There is no need for some “Great Reset”.
In the attached table, to “go clean” for the EU in 2019, 6.8 kWe of continuous primary clean electrical baseload power is needed per person. If this is instead intermittent wind or ground solar, this increases to 9 kWe per person. Thus, for 10 billion in 2100, between 68,000 GWe continuous and 90,000 GWe continuous is needed.
My approach requires roughly 80,000 GWe of primary clean electrical power. I divide this between 80 percent coming from space solar power-supplied astroelectricity and 20 percent coming from ground solar power.
With this “mix”, the ground area needed for the astroelectric rectennas, the 2.3 million km2 shown in the attached illustration, is also used for the ground solar farms, assuming this is possible.
(The attached image is my current estimate. I sent the wrong one with the earlier message. I continually update my model and calculations. The difference with the updated model is that I now have more refined estimates of the input primary clean electrical energy needed to produce the clean carbon fuels.)
To meet this energy need with just ground solar farms would require about 1.5 Australia’s covered in solar farms. With wind farms, over two Africa’s covered in wind farms would be needed. I consider both of these to not be practicable, especially as the ground solar competes with farmland.
Of course, people at the local, state, or national level can build whatever they wish in terms of green renewable energy. The point of my assessment is to establish an understanding of the scale needed to enable everyone by 2100 to have a prosperous middle-class standard of living not imperiled by energy impoverishment caused by a declining supply of affordable fossil carbon fuels.
In my model, 11,200 globally dispersed 5-GWe baseload astroelectric plants would provide regional electrical power. A global network of pipelines and ocean transport would globally deliver clean carbon fuels, produced from this baseload astroelectricity, to meet all energy needs regardless of where one lives, just as is done today. The on-site ground solar farms augment the baseload power as time-of-day and weather permits. Of course, other renewable energy sources and, likely, some modest measure of secondary nuclear electrical power (for robustness) will be used.
For America, it is important to understand that, CURRENTLY, the US uses 2.4X the EU per person energy use. (For this reason, I did not use the US value as the 2100 baseline.) Thus, the US would disproportionally need to build more SSP per person than most everyone else. HOWEVER, this then raises trading off the cost of building SSP vs cost of rebuilding the US. In my book, Astroelectricity, I argue that advancements of AI, robotic construction workers, 3D printing, and other related advances, combined with low-cost renewable power, will enable most of America today to be deconstructed and rebuilt by 2100. Thus, instead of building 2.4X SSP per person, much of that investment will go into rebuilding America, literally from the ground up. This will also happen globally.
For multiple generations through 2100, especially as AI displays many in the current workforce, Americans will turn to redesigning, deconstructing, and rebuilding America. Robotic construction workers, 3D printing, and many other related advances will substantially increase the economic output per human hour of effort for this deconstruction and rebuilding. Thus, the cost of this rebuilding per unit of output will dramatically fall—as has happened in all forms of technology-enhanced human effort starting with agriculture. The substantial increase in scale of work to be undertaken will require more higher-paid architectural, engineering, manufacturing, and construction workers. Globally, this will have comparable results.
There is no reason why, by 2100, America cannot be a bright, new nation, built to 22nd century standards while using dramatically less clean energy per person. It is simply a matter of understanding the true potential of space solar power.
Mike Snead, PE
(removing the cc: to 91 other people, to avoid bugging them...if they're interested in these discussions, they should join the mailing list 😊
KeithH wrote:)
> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 10:02 AM Tim Cash <cash...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Why not just start a private foundation for space solar power for the
> expressed purpose of a megawatt class demonstration powersat in GEO space.
>
> The physics does not work, Tim, you should know that. GW to MW is a
> thousand to one, the energy level in the middle of the rectenna (all but power
> kept the same) would be half a watt per m^2 which is entirely worthless. It's
> not even though to forward bias the rectenna diodes making the output zero.
That's true if you use the "classic" rectenna design, with one rectifier per diode.
IIRC, I think it was from the designers of the Canadian SHARP microwave powered aircraft project of the 1980s (Joe Schlesak and Adrian Alden, the latter of whom taught a small group of us at the Canadian Space Society how to build his rectenna-printed-on-thin-film-mylar design), that I was told that you can have multiple dipoles (or other types of antenna elements) sharing a single rectifier --- connect n dipoles in series, with one diode for the set. This allows you to harvest power efficiently in a lower-power-flux-density field. If you know what the PFD is at a particular location on the ground (and assuming that the PFD will be constant there), then you choose the value of n for that location. I *think* this may have been part of Bill Brown's strategy for general rectenna-farm design --- out near the edges of the farm, where the PFD is tapering off, gang multiple diodes together.
There is another approach that I came up with years ago (and maybe should have patented, but incautiously disclosed here some time ago, so patenting is no longer an option): use an *active* rectifier instead of a passive one, using a driven FET to do the rectification instead of a diode. This eliminates the diode drop entirely, as there's no voltage drop across a FET when its gate is open. It does take some current to repeatedly open and close the FET's gate (basically the charge needed to open the gate, multiplied by the beam frequency --- filling and draining the gate capacitor 2.45 billion times a second); I have a vague concept for a resonant circuit design for doing that, so that the current isn't just wasted by draining it to ground, but is bounced back and forth between the gate and a coil. I'm not enough of an EE to design that circuit and run the numbers on it, but perhaps it would result in less loss than the diode drop. And in principle, it could allow extraction of power from a *very* low PFD field (particularly if combined with the ganging-up-dipoles trick).
That's what I've had in the back of my mind for some years now, for an initial few-MW-scale SPS pilot plant.
- Kieran
Bryan;
You wrote:
Traditionally, if that’s the appropriate use of the word are Scandinavia, Greenland, Russia and U.S. If I recall we have the least adjacent territories.
I assume you’re talking about the countries adjacent to the North Pole, which have a LotS claim to areas of the Arctic Ocean. In which case you’ve left one out 😊. (I’m Canadian.)
Canada too has a claim to the arctic. I have a friend who was a government geologist, who spent the last few years of her career helping to assemble the dossier that the Canadian government is using to press that claim --- basically mapping the seafloor, since in the arcane world of the LotS, economic claims are based on how far out the “continental shelf” reaches from a country. As it happens there’s a subsea ridge pretty much connecting Canada to Russia under the Arctic Ocean; on that basis the Russians are claiming that their “continental shelf” extends all the way from Russia to Canada, and hence the entire Arctic is theirs. Canada begs to disagree…
Seems kinda silly, except for all the money to be made by drilling for oil & gas up there. It’s certainly absurd. But that’s the result of all parties following an essentially bureaucratic process tied to legal treaties. Better than sending gunships up there to fight it out, like in the old days.
- Kieran
From: power-satell...@googlegroups.com <power-satell...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Bryan Zetlen
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2024 6:26 PM
To: Keith Henson <hkeith...@gmail.com>
Cc: Ed Tate <e...@virtussolis.space>; Francois Lambert <fla...@orbitalreach.space>; Power Satellite Economics <power-satell...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Better ways to use space solar power? Re: Criticizing NASA ... report
Keith this is a good survey on oil prospecting at the North Pole. >>
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