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[Dion Worles]

Furtherto some previous posts, my '66 650SS seems to be over oiling the rockers. Just to clarify, should the flats on the rocker spindles face in towards the centre of the engine, or out towards the rocker covers?

hello if your having over oiling issues this could be down to the small oil holes being blocked. As Most of the oil runs down the pushrod tunnels on the exhaust side and the rest runs down an oil hole at the inlet side that goes down the side of the right side inlet valve spring and down the back of the barrel and into the timing case, so something is blocked somewhere and needs a clean now have fun yours anna j

Hi David mine had the intermediate type plain rocker spindles with the no flat. Upgraded to the plain type with the flat which faces outward (away from the inside of the head) with the 6 start oil pump as per Commando. My issue was the spindles were turning in the head due to the interferance fit being lost over the years.

On my 650 SS some had worn into the head deeper as they had been turning so were all set at different positions ended up using a kit from RGM that stopped them spinning thanks to the adjustable allen keys. Norvil also do some with longer tangs.

Just pulled the rocker spindlesout to check their positions (no heat required, somewhat alarmingly), and Lo! and behold, I have the unscrolled plainn spindles, but no flats, just a hole. I assume that the hole will face the rocker covers, the same as the other ones with flats on. Incidentally, did the new spindles fit tighter in the head? All my current ones had remained with the slots on the ends in the correct position.

Rocker shafts should be a tight fit in the head when cold, this is refered to as an interference fit , they should never be removed or replaced without first warming the head, removing and replacing them cold will gradually enlarge the locations untill they become loose.

Rocker shafts can move inwards from new when the engine is at working temperature, they then dislocate from the end plates and can rotate, this will cut the oil feed off. To overcome this a dummy shaft can be made, this can be used to determine the ammount by which the shaft is moving , a spacer is then made and placed behind the shaft bringing the outer end flush with the outside surface of the head.

Rocker shafts:- To turn or not to turn, this problem appears to have been caused in the past by an issue with an excess of oil in the head , brought on no doubt by the improved oil pump output and the now positive feed to the rockers.

The hole in the rocker shaft was always intended to feed oil directly into the rocker and thence to the pushrod cup. The flat is to allow an uninterupted flow into the rocker when it is moving. Turning the shaft will effectively turn the tap off making the pump improvement somewhat negative.

Someone decided when the oil problem arose that a quick fix could be made by turning the rocker shaft , it appears that it worked , the modification was put in "the book" and from then on it became the rule to be followed by owners and "experts" alike. This modification might have solved the problem but it raised another one which seems either to have not been recognised or has been totally ignored .

On Dommies and Atlas the Inlet side does not drain well ,there is a hump in the middle of the head so oil has to find its way down the small drain hole, With the high pressure system and the shaft holes facing the pushrods there can be too much oil at the inlet valves and it gets drawn in.I would have thought that facing the holes away from the pushrods would increase the pressure and force oil along the rocker bushes giving better lubrication to them. The cam tunnel trough gives good lubrication to the cam (except for those silly enough to have removed it!) .I have fitted oil seals to our Atlas inlets which may solve the issue. I may have to do the same to the 99 which is also now getting a bit too much oil on the plugs since I "improved" it.

We seem to be talking about two systems here, the three start and the six start. With the three start system and the "hit and miss" feed to the rockers flooding was never a problem, but the oil trough was very important because without it the cam will wear out. Problems with flooding seemed to start with the enlargement of the pump gears and the addition of the six start drive gear. As already mentioned turning the shaft was a quick fix but not the answer. What's the point of increasing the oil flow and then cutting it down by turning the shaft round with the eventual result of damaging the cam. Why do they continue to put the flat on new rocker shafts? Turn the shaft round and the flat serves no further purpose.

The spindle flats serve as small reservoirs. Once the engine is running the camshaft then receives a combined splash, drip and oil mist feed. The motion of the pistons helps with lubrication of all the bottom end due to what is known as the 'bellows' effect. ie. the pushing of oily gases around the crankcases. This also works in the timing cover. If you look carefully you will note small feed holes that point at all the chains and gears. They look like drain holes but also serve as part of the oil feed system when the pistons descend. This arrangement worked fine for the early Dominators and only gives problems when people mess around with the breathing system.

The spindle flats may operate as a reservoir but that is not why they are there. They are so there is a continuous feed to the pushrod ends of the rockers arms. With them turned round, there is very little oil going that way.

Its amazing that such an obscure and almost irrelevant detail on some outdated old engine can occupy the thoughts of so many intelligent and creative people. We should all get out more, but not yet , crappy weather.

The trough that is mentioned may not add that much to the lubrication, but maybe more a function of other need for oil, heat removal. The nose of the lobe will be very hot as it has passed the tappet, and thus the cooling hit in the the trough helps keep the cam lobe cool. The lobe can get hot, I have a microscope photo of a tappet wearing molten cam, the tappet was not even affected by the heat, it could be refaced and reused.

One thing I have noticed is that standard cams fail more than performance cams, the higher the lobe the more chance of hitting oil.? Any oil that is hit in the trough by the lobe I suspect would be flung off, or splash / airborne oil takes over, so the trough may not add much to the lubrication.

I have a bone stock 1966 650ss that I just restored- Got it as a basket case- now she lives! No more than 50 gentle miles on it in several short trips. When she gets hot- we get a nasty metallic chafing sound developing in the left hand exhaust valve area- . Spray a little lube on the valve spring/stem and it goes away.... temporarily.... I'm watching in there while she runs, and I don't see whole lot of oil flowing down the pushrods- nor do I see whole lot of "mist" being generated in the front . A little oil oozing out the ends of the rockers/spindles where they meet the case and drooling down the sides but that's it. There doesnt seem to be much reaching the valve springs/stemsPlenty of oil in the back , i.e. -the intake valves- its even pooling up a bit around the base of the valve guide and lots of "splash"- Three mins with it running with the cover off and it gets the tops of the carbs wet with oil. ... but none of that is happening in the front.Not sure what action would be generating the "mist" necessary to wet the exhaust valve stems in the first place. Seems like it should be a lot wetter up front there.Now, I didn't do the motor- I sent it to a chap who I know/ trust very much and he did the work.But I am guessing I should pull the rocker spindles and suss it out. Blow everything out clean and start againSo -Here's my questions:-Can I pull them without removing the head?

Sounds like the small oilways are pretty blocked ,if its a high pressure system there should be plenty of oil. You are going to have to see what you have. Its all accessible without removing the head.Its possible that just the inlet spindles are facing the wrong way and diverting the oil.

Hello Tristan, you say you have a problem once the engine is warm , to hear a scuffing sound above the sound of the engine suggests it might be something other than a tight unlubricated valve, and yet, as you say, the sound goes away with the addition of oil. Is it likely to be an assembly problem, how conversant with the Norton engine is your engine builder? There is an oil drain hole in the rear right hand side of the cylinder head that drains oil back to the timing case, if the cylinder base gasket were to be put on incorrectly the crankcase hole would be covered and the oil would build up in the head , not all gaskets are both left and right handed, there is a similar hole in the head gasket. The other end of this drain hole can be accessed from the rear of the timing chest, a low pressure air jet directed into this hole should tell you if it is clear. A lot of members seem to suffer over oiling within the cylinder head and follow the instructions in " the book" to rotate the rocker shaft so that the oil hole faces away from the pushrods. This will restrict the oil flow into the rocker arm and produce the effect you have seen of oil squeezing out of either end of the rocker. I think you definitely need to carefully dismantle the head, taking notes or pictures as you do so. I don't know when it was done, but later engines have oil drain holes in the exhaust valve pockets, these are so effectively masked by the spring seats as to be almost useless. I have within this thread a couple of posts which I had hoped might explain some of the problems with the valve gear and how to overcome them , it might be worth glancing through them again .

Other threads imply that away from the pushrods is the correct positioning, or over oiling will occur, but are you saying that the book might be incorrect on this? ( wouldnt surprise me, I have seen incorrect stuff in "the books" on several bikes in the past!)

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