为什么北上南下？
yuan zhu
HaoPeiQiang
HaoPeiQiang
yuan zhu
Bruce Dou
Dennis S
error right
siqiao chen
kexanie key.insist
Jawley
HaoPeiQiang
Jawley
HaoPeiQiang
siqiao chen
On maps, why is north always up?
Dear Cecil:
Why is north up? Did the early explorers, mapmakers, astronomers, and the like get together and vote, or did it just sort of happen? Does everyone on earth think of north as up, or could a Northern Hemispherian like myself travel south of the equator and buy a globe with Antarctica on top?
— David J., Chicago
Cecil replies:
You're on to something here, David. With a few minor exceptions, which we'll get to directly, mapmakers throughout the world invariably put north on top, even if they were born and raised in Tierra del Fuego. What we're dealing with, in other words, is a case of blatant directionism, the unfairness of which can't help but rankle any right-thinking person. Why should the big N always be on top when there are hundreds of other directions — thousands, if you get down to seconds of arc — that have an equally legitimate claim on our affections? I grieve to think of the shattered dreams of, say, south southeast.
People who live in the southern hemisphere like to give the impression they could care less about how maps are oriented. But don't be deceived. An Australian friend of mine once showed me a world map printed up by her countrymen that had south on top, thereby putting Australia, as she rather ominously phrased it, "in its rightful place." Mark my words, someday the slogan "Down with Yankee imperialism" will have shocking new meaning.
But getting back to your question. The notion that north should always be up and east at the right was established by the Egyptian astronomer Ptolemy (90-168 AD). "Perhaps this was because the better-known places in his world were in the northern hemisphere, and on a flat map these were most convenient for study if they were in the upper right-hand corner," historian Daniel Boorstin opines. Mapmakers haven't always followed Ptolemy; during the Middle Ages, Boorstin notes, maps often had east on top — whence the expression "to orient." But north prevailed over the long haul. By the time Southern Hemispheroids had become numerically significant enough to bitch, the north-side-up convention was too well established to change.
— Cecil Adams
Jawley
yuan zhu
萧萧
有道理，谢谢。原来中国古代完全是乱搞，我被元明二代小说里头的地图给蒙了，以为三国时代的地图已经是上北下南了。
吧。
--
Get busy living, or get busy dying.
Milo Yip
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map#Orientation_of_maps
2011/10/2 yuan zhu <zy49...@gmail.com>:
--
Milo Yip
Twitter @miloyip
http://www.cnblogs.com/miloyip/
http://miloyip.seezone.net/
刁心帅
刁心帅
yunfan
Jawley
yunfan
On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 11:10:21AM -0500, Jawley wrote:
> 那为何不是以东为上，或者以西为上？
> 我在前面的回复里面说过，类似你这个的解释可以有很多，实际上充其量是次要影响，可以被其它次要影响所中和，而不是决定性影响。
>
> On Tuesday, October 4, 2011 at 11:06 AM, yunfan wrote:
>
> > 主要国家都集中在北半球 如此而已
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 04:13:20PM +0800, 刁心帅 wrote:
> > > 历史上人口主要集中于北半球，尤其是科技，文化有优势的民族，
> > > 直到现在还是这样，所以地图一般都是北上南下，中国地图一般是中国在中间，
> > > 欧洲国家是欧洲国家在中间，美国不知道，我猜是美国在中间。
> > >
> > > 历史上男人一直处于强势，所以男上女下，现在男女地位越来越平等，
> > > 所以姿势有百花齐放之势啊，唉
> > >
> > >
> > > 在 2011年10月4日 下午4:00，刁心帅 <dia...@gmail.com (mailto:dia...@gmail.com)>写道：
> > >
> > > > 我邪恶了。
> > > > 我感觉跟男上女下问题差不多。
> > > > 主流而已，其实还有很多其他姿势，呵呵
> > > >
> > > > 在 2011年10月2日 下午11:45，Milo Yip <mil...@gmail.com (mailto:mil...@gmail.com)>写道：
> > > >
> > > > 歷史上和現今的地圖也不一定是上北下南的
> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map#Orientation_of_maps
> > > > >
> > > > > 2011/10/2 yuan zhu <zy49...@gmail.com (mailto:zy49...@gmail.com)>:
Jawley
xia ji
也就是说明在古代 任何方向在地图上方都是存在的 即使在今天 同样存在south在上方的地图 详见 http://www.flourish.org/upsidedownmap/
在古代 绘制地图是为了政治目的服务 为了统治者更好的统治 今天而更多是为了满足消费者的需求 这也是为何south在上方会存在至今
为何现在没有绘制东西放在上方的地图 在地图完全展开没有折叠的情况下 不管是以南or北为上 水平方向的宽度总大于竖直方向的长度
随着时代的变化 地图再不是为了画的越长越大来满足统治者的虚荣心以及政治统治 更注重别的功能 比如军事指挥 指路
如果是东西为上 我不确实东西为上的地图是否要比南北为上的地图需要更大的纸张
但是其竖直方向的长度比较长是肯定的 从人观赏静态图画的习惯来说 不如以北为上来的直观简洁
以北为上 有从另一个方向解释的答案 那就是地球仪
As others have noted, prior to the Renaissance, there was no firm convention on map orientation. The rise of North being up (nearly) universally began about the same time that globes began to become fashionable. When making a globe, North *must* be up. If South is up, the large and important landmasses are lost underneath, where they cannot be seen. If East or West is up -- that is, if North is left or right -- then the placenames can only be seen rightside up from one side of the globe, while they are upside down on the opposite side. Only with North up on the globe are both of these problems solved.
But if North is up on your globe, surely you will prefer to purchase an atlas with the same orientation, so as not to confuse yourself. Hence, North ends up "up" on maps too.
dz
感谢 yuan zhu 提了一个好问题，一直以来觉得理所当然的事情，原来也存在着有趣的历史背景。我刚刚wiki了一下，发现美国历史学家，曾任美
国国会图书馆馆长的 Daniel J. Boorstin 也考虑过这个问题，在他1983年的著作 The Discovers 中，他解释说北上
南下的传统源自于托勒密的贡献和对后世的巨大影响。在下翻译不好，给大家摘抄一段原文：
What is most remarkable is how strong Ptolemy's influence remains, two
millennia after his death. The framework and the vocabulary of our
maps of the world are still shaped by Ptolemy. ... ... ... ... ... In
his Geography he gave the latitudes and longitudes for eight thousand
places. He established the convention, second nature to us today, of
orienting maps with the north at the top and the east at the right.
Perhaps this was because the better-known places in his world were in
the northern hemisphere, and on a flat map these were most convenient
to study if they were in the upper right-hand corner.
托勒密为了方便阅读和研究，把当时世界上他比较了解的地方（欧洲，北非和西亚）画在了地图的上方，因为这幅地图太有名了，影响了太多的人，所以就有了北
上南下的传统沿袭下来。大家有兴趣可以去看看wiki上的托勒密世界地图。http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy
%27s_world_map
不过地图上的方位也确实存在过很多种不同的表示法，主要是由于文化的差异和地图用途的不同而造成的。这点我发现wiki上说的还是挺详细的，大家请看下
边这几个链接：
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map#Orientation_of_maps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North#Roles_of_north_as_prime_direction
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=487527
关于南上北下的地图，也有人做过有趣的研究：
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversed_map
再次感谢 yuan zhu 同学，我以前从没有想到过，现在一调查才发现这么多有趣的内容。
yuan zhu
当时人家那个小孩子问我的时候，我基本没有往历史上面想，面红耳赤的脑袋里一团浆糊，都在想什么以太阳为中心的参考系啊，黄道平面和赤道平面啊，左手坐标系啊。当时觉得按地球自转方向和左手坐标系来解释太离谱了，古人没那么多花花肠子吧，所以还是老实给人家说，“不好意思，这个问题我得问问别人。”
Atry
Isaac Li
里面可能大有学问！
Isaac Li
Phil 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.