What about our right to remain ignorant?
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Kat
Dec 9, 2008, 4:54:06 PM12/9/08
to Pod Tycoon
Why does the created have to have knowledge of the creator? Sounds
like the creator is on a power trip.
like the creator is on a power trip.
Matthew
Dec 9, 2008, 5:14:35 PM12/9/08
to Pod Tycoon
That's an interesting question, Kat. I do think that pod is showing
more than indifferent interest in his creations. As he says in his
Shutdown Notice, he has grown to like us, and feels like we deserve
more than the standard notice; he thinks we deserve explanation. But
he also says that we will find out everything in the afterlife anyway
if we choose. So why does he say so much? I think there is a bit of
ego showing here. I think I would do the same... being God is the
ultimate power trip and a way to milk that is to watch your creations
react to your revealed presence. You just know that God enjoyed the
look on Moses' face when that burning bush started talking.
Other such creators may have just done a drag-and-drop shutdown notice
and not personalized it at all, just done the minimum to fit the terms
of the ACRA. Pod indeed did not have to go further but he does, taking
a few extra minutes to personalize it. Why is that? Is this an act of
kindness? Ego? Or a kind of cruelty?
more than indifferent interest in his creations. As he says in his
Shutdown Notice, he has grown to like us, and feels like we deserve
more than the standard notice; he thinks we deserve explanation. But
he also says that we will find out everything in the afterlife anyway
if we choose. So why does he say so much? I think there is a bit of
ego showing here. I think I would do the same... being God is the
ultimate power trip and a way to milk that is to watch your creations
react to your revealed presence. You just know that God enjoyed the
look on Moses' face when that burning bush started talking.
Other such creators may have just done a drag-and-drop shutdown notice
and not personalized it at all, just done the minimum to fit the terms
of the ACRA. Pod indeed did not have to go further but he does, taking
a few extra minutes to personalize it. Why is that? Is this an act of
kindness? Ego? Or a kind of cruelty?
Humberto Castaneda
Dec 9, 2008, 6:08:28 PM12/9/08
to pod-t...@googlegroups.com
And the pod in question is really just a "being" in the future, correct? So frailty and all...
Think of how we people are with pets, we love them, we pamper them, but we also let them know who is in charge. And we even 'put them down' at times, although I'm sure many of us would ask them for their consent if we could.
To a sim manager, the sims, no matter how detailed, still will assume a pet like role. Unless perhaps the sim manager spends enough time with a particular sim and grows genuinely attached. But then again, that does not seem to be the case in this example.
I see it more of a matter of regulations being followed. It sounds as though these things happen often, and he/she is just following procedure. The extra minutes to personalize may happen more often than we think, we only have one example to go by.
(Entre nous, it actually does happen a lot but, that's another story, and I'm already in trouble as it is, so never mind).--
I, Transhuman
42.43
Think of how we people are with pets, we love them, we pamper them, but we also let them know who is in charge. And we even 'put them down' at times, although I'm sure many of us would ask them for their consent if we could.
To a sim manager, the sims, no matter how detailed, still will assume a pet like role. Unless perhaps the sim manager spends enough time with a particular sim and grows genuinely attached. But then again, that does not seem to be the case in this example.
I see it more of a matter of regulations being followed. It sounds as though these things happen often, and he/she is just following procedure. The extra minutes to personalize may happen more often than we think, we only have one example to go by.
(Entre nous, it actually does happen a lot but, that's another story, and I'm already in trouble as it is, so never mind).
I, Transhuman
42.43
Message has been deleted
Matthew
Dec 9, 2008, 7:59:39 PM12/9/08
to Pod Tycoon
(I removed a duplicate message from Humberto; I find that my messages
also don't show up right away)
I use the name "pod" as short for podtycoon, who says in the Shutdown
Notice that he is a human in the future, who started up the sim. He's
a college student in what we now call Finland.
It's interesting to wonder what pod thinks of us. On one hand, he is
completely in control of us and can watch us from afar, so in that
respect we are like pets, or ants in an ant farm, to use Don't
analogy. But on the other hand, he is just a human being and we are
human beings in silico. Some of us are smarter and wiser and more
capable than he is (though he probably has augmented himself quite a
bit with his contemporary technology). So in that respect, we are not
like pets in that we are not amusingly inferior. One of the lovable
things about having my dog is that she is so guileless and blissfully
unsophisticated.
I picture pod as seeing us as something in between. He has been
conditioned to treat us like real people with human rights, but deep
down he cannot take us as seriously as a real person in his world. He
is following regulations but feels a bit of extra interest and
sympathy. I imagine that others like him in his world refuse to think
of ACs (artificial consciousnesses) as anything like themselves, and
to be disposed of carelessly, and the laws being a silly nuisance.
Some people feel that way about laboratory chimpanzees now. Some feel
they deserve a dignified retirement and freedom from pain as much as
possible, which others see them as mere means to an end, to be
disposed of when no longer useful.
I picture myself in this situation. What if I were playing the game
The Sims (by Will Wright/Maxis) with the knowledge that the sim people
in the game had a conscious sense of self? It's not a very good fit
because in the game I can control their actions and intentions, and it
does not seem that pod has that kind of control over the ACs. Since
the sims in the game The Sims don't seem to have any free will when I
control them, it's hard to believe they are conscious. So what if it
were a game like The Sims but I could only affect their environment,
and the lesser "bot" sims, unable to control the ACs? How would I
play? How would I feel about suspending the game of shutting it down?
It's an interesting question. To apply the Golden Rule, I should treat
them as I would want to be treated, no?
(And yes, entre nous, we sim managers should at least keep our
correspondence under a separate topic, as mixing our messages into the
discussion among the ACs is even messier than our earlier
transgressions.)
also don't show up right away)
I use the name "pod" as short for podtycoon, who says in the Shutdown
Notice that he is a human in the future, who started up the sim. He's
a college student in what we now call Finland.
It's interesting to wonder what pod thinks of us. On one hand, he is
completely in control of us and can watch us from afar, so in that
respect we are like pets, or ants in an ant farm, to use Don't
analogy. But on the other hand, he is just a human being and we are
human beings in silico. Some of us are smarter and wiser and more
capable than he is (though he probably has augmented himself quite a
bit with his contemporary technology). So in that respect, we are not
like pets in that we are not amusingly inferior. One of the lovable
things about having my dog is that she is so guileless and blissfully
unsophisticated.
I picture pod as seeing us as something in between. He has been
conditioned to treat us like real people with human rights, but deep
down he cannot take us as seriously as a real person in his world. He
is following regulations but feels a bit of extra interest and
sympathy. I imagine that others like him in his world refuse to think
of ACs (artificial consciousnesses) as anything like themselves, and
to be disposed of carelessly, and the laws being a silly nuisance.
Some people feel that way about laboratory chimpanzees now. Some feel
they deserve a dignified retirement and freedom from pain as much as
possible, which others see them as mere means to an end, to be
disposed of when no longer useful.
I picture myself in this situation. What if I were playing the game
The Sims (by Will Wright/Maxis) with the knowledge that the sim people
in the game had a conscious sense of self? It's not a very good fit
because in the game I can control their actions and intentions, and it
does not seem that pod has that kind of control over the ACs. Since
the sims in the game The Sims don't seem to have any free will when I
control them, it's hard to believe they are conscious. So what if it
were a game like The Sims but I could only affect their environment,
and the lesser "bot" sims, unable to control the ACs? How would I
play? How would I feel about suspending the game of shutting it down?
It's an interesting question. To apply the Golden Rule, I should treat
them as I would want to be treated, no?
(And yes, entre nous, we sim managers should at least keep our
correspondence under a separate topic, as mixing our messages into the
discussion among the ACs is even messier than our earlier
transgressions.)
Winston Zardo
Dec 10, 2008, 11:18:44 AM12/10/08
to Pod Tycoon
The Golden Rule falls apart when one encounters a masochist, does it
not?
Zardo
> > I'm already in trouble as it is, so never mind).- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
not?
Zardo
>
> - Show quoted text -
Kat Ford
Dec 10, 2008, 4:54:54 PM12/10/08
to pod-t...@googlegroups.com
I don't know that exceptions to a rule make that rule fall apart exactly. However any good rule has a way to manage exceptions.
Perhaps "treat others as they wish to be treated" is better than assuming that everyone wishes to be treated as you.
Perhaps "treat others as they wish to be treated" is better than assuming that everyone wishes to be treated as you.
Matthew
Dec 10, 2008, 5:11:48 PM12/10/08
to Pod Tycoon
I see it more like a guideline than a rule. :) But seriously, I think
the Golden Rule, like all moral rules IMO, is not mechanically
inflexible. Depending on the situation it can be applied as:
1) Treat others as you would want to be treated
2) Per Kat, treat others as they want to be treated
3) Per other religious formulations, don't do to others what you would
not want done to you
4) Treat others as they *should* want to be treated if they were of
sound mind
And so on. Interpreting and applying the Golden Rule is tricky and
fluid so it's not an answer to every moral dilemma; it's just a good
way to formulate the questions which will lead you to what is the
better choice.
It might be interesting to note that though I am an atheist, I still
use the Golden Rule. It's not the province of any one religion and
most religions have some form of it.
the Golden Rule, like all moral rules IMO, is not mechanically
inflexible. Depending on the situation it can be applied as:
1) Treat others as you would want to be treated
2) Per Kat, treat others as they want to be treated
3) Per other religious formulations, don't do to others what you would
not want done to you
4) Treat others as they *should* want to be treated if they were of
sound mind
And so on. Interpreting and applying the Golden Rule is tricky and
fluid so it's not an answer to every moral dilemma; it's just a good
way to formulate the questions which will lead you to what is the
better choice.
It might be interesting to note that though I am an atheist, I still
use the Golden Rule. It's not the province of any one religion and
most religions have some form of it.
Humberto Castaneda
Dec 10, 2008, 11:17:54 PM12/10/08
to pod-t...@googlegroups.com
What about the Platinum Rule:
1 Tom 4:9-10
"Do unto others as though they had been walking for miles in thine own shoes which thou hast obtained from beggars while...
Oh screw it: when in doubt, use someone else's platinum amex!
--
I, Transhuman
42.43
I, Transhuman
42.43
Winston Zardo
Dec 11, 2008, 9:34:37 AM12/11/08
to Pod Tycoon
How about something simple...Be Kind...Kind, from
Kin...family...humankind...human family?
Zardo
> 42.43- Hide quoted text -
Kin...family...humankind...human family?
Zardo
Matthew
Dec 11, 2008, 6:26:14 PM12/11/08
to Pod Tycoon
I think "be kind" is quite a good way to put it. It still begs the
question of what is true kindness. Some would say that we should treat
people as does them the most good, or will ultimately bring them the
most joy. So to buy a bottle of gin for an addicted teenager may make
him very happy in the short term and it is clearly how he wants to be
treated, but we should not do so because it's not in his long term
best interest. But this gets fuzzy. Some want to "cure" gays because
they feel that it will lead to greater long-term happiness (in their
life, not to speak of the predicted fires of hell". I don't agree with
either premise but now it becomes a battle of which premise you
accept.
So again, should pod conclude that true kindness, true right
treatment, is to, or is not to, tell his creations about the fact they
are not real? He says he is adhering to a law which requires ACs to
know their situation and make their choice, but he could morally
object to that law and not follow it, or follow it in a way that
causes less suffering-- if as Kat proposes, ignorance is bliss.
question of what is true kindness. Some would say that we should treat
people as does them the most good, or will ultimately bring them the
most joy. So to buy a bottle of gin for an addicted teenager may make
him very happy in the short term and it is clearly how he wants to be
treated, but we should not do so because it's not in his long term
best interest. But this gets fuzzy. Some want to "cure" gays because
they feel that it will lead to greater long-term happiness (in their
life, not to speak of the predicted fires of hell". I don't agree with
either premise but now it becomes a battle of which premise you
accept.
So again, should pod conclude that true kindness, true right
treatment, is to, or is not to, tell his creations about the fact they
are not real? He says he is adhering to a law which requires ACs to
know their situation and make their choice, but he could morally
object to that law and not follow it, or follow it in a way that
causes less suffering-- if as Kat proposes, ignorance is bliss.
Winston Zardo
Dec 17, 2008, 8:51:01 PM12/17/08
to Pod Tycoon
Kindness is benevolent.
Happiness and joy are not the same.
Zardo
> > Zardo- Hide quoted text -
Happiness and joy are not the same.
Zardo
Matthew
Dec 18, 2008, 5:52:52 AM12/18/08
to Pod Tycoon
Interesting question, Zardo, how would you define the difference?
To me, as I think about it, joy is more unthinking and transportive.
Happiness is more quiet and aware. But both are good, and I like to
get as much of both as I can. :)
Kindness is, I agree, different yet again. It is a kind of joy taken
from giving joy to others. Or at least a sense of fulfilled duty when
one does what one knows is right and compassionate towards another.
What do you think?
To me, as I think about it, joy is more unthinking and transportive.
Happiness is more quiet and aware. But both are good, and I like to
get as much of both as I can. :)
Kindness is, I agree, different yet again. It is a kind of joy taken
from giving joy to others. Or at least a sense of fulfilled duty when
one does what one knows is right and compassionate towards another.
What do you think?
Kat Ford
Dec 22, 2008, 7:14:44 PM12/22/08
to pod-t...@googlegroups.com
as Kat proposes, ignorance is bliss
We humans place our intellect on a pedestal but don't tend to use it to the benefit of the "greater good". War, wealth, the worship of the individual...
Hard to argue much with semantics. Kindness, benevolence, happiness, joy, and their counterparts are all subjective, relative, and conceptual. No wonder people are drawn to the clearcut rules of zeros and ones.
Ok I'm off to shop for Christmas, the day we celebrate the birth of Santa. :P
Matthew
Dec 28, 2008, 7:24:48 PM12/28/08
to Pod Tycoon
Kat, you make a good connection to traditional morality. What is the
role of knowledge in the pursuit of joy? In the Garden of Eden, it is
the knowledge that the tree brings, the knowledge of good and evil,
that makes God cast Adam and Eve out of Paradise. I have always
thought that as a really pretty bizarre moral stance by God. In the
play Oedipus Rex, the knowledge that Oedipus pursues and finally
gains, that he murdered his father and bedded his mother, brings
nothing but tragedy for everyone, including himself. Is pod here
bringing more tragedy than joy at his revelation? Is it more merciful
to simply flip off a simulation and instantly vaporize all the ACs
there than to give them the knowledge of their true natures, and then
to give them the option of continued existence? Would you choose to
somehow assure that whenever you die, it will be instant, with no
warning, no chance to see it coming, no chance to perform any last
acts?
role of knowledge in the pursuit of joy? In the Garden of Eden, it is
the knowledge that the tree brings, the knowledge of good and evil,
that makes God cast Adam and Eve out of Paradise. I have always
thought that as a really pretty bizarre moral stance by God. In the
play Oedipus Rex, the knowledge that Oedipus pursues and finally
gains, that he murdered his father and bedded his mother, brings
nothing but tragedy for everyone, including himself. Is pod here
bringing more tragedy than joy at his revelation? Is it more merciful
to simply flip off a simulation and instantly vaporize all the ACs
there than to give them the knowledge of their true natures, and then
to give them the option of continued existence? Would you choose to
somehow assure that whenever you die, it will be instant, with no
warning, no chance to see it coming, no chance to perform any last
acts?
Kat Ford
Jan 2, 2009, 7:26:07 PM1/2/09
to pod-t...@googlegroups.com
Yep, I want to die in my sleep. I definitely don't want it pointed out my life is meaningless and a simulation at that!
:)
:)
Matthew
Jan 11, 2009, 3:05:38 AM1/11/09
to Pod Tycoon
Heh, I may agree with that choice. But it brings up an interesting
side question: is the life described by podtycoon really meaningless?
Unless one proposes that even real life is meaningless, that is. :) If
life is meaningful because one can influence the world and the future,
one can bring and feel joy, then being an AC is not necessarily
meaningless. One is very likely to influence other ACs in both ways,
and even influence real people who interact with the AC in a VR game
or with an online chat. Though the AC cannot directly physically
affect the world, he or she can compel a real person to do so. So is
that really a meaningless existence?
On Jan 3, 10:26 am, "Kat Ford" <katf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yep, I want to die in my sleep. I definitely don't want it pointed out my
> life is meaningless and a simulation at that!
>
> :)
>
side question: is the life described by podtycoon really meaningless?
Unless one proposes that even real life is meaningless, that is. :) If
life is meaningful because one can influence the world and the future,
one can bring and feel joy, then being an AC is not necessarily
meaningless. One is very likely to influence other ACs in both ways,
and even influence real people who interact with the AC in a VR game
or with an online chat. Though the AC cannot directly physically
affect the world, he or she can compel a real person to do so. So is
that really a meaningless existence?
On Jan 3, 10:26 am, "Kat Ford" <katf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yep, I want to die in my sleep. I definitely don't want it pointed out my
> life is meaningless and a simulation at that!
>
> :)
>
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