FT8 NA VHF contest mode

[w7ba]

I have a question for everyone; why were we not using NA VHF contest mode for the 6M Sprint Contest?

73, Bob, W7BA

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

[Bob Johnson]

I do have to agree with Bob that all Contest and Sprints 50 mHz and above with the  WSJT-X FT-8 mode, we should be using   (  NA VHF Contest )   Last Saturday's 6 M Sprint was a mess at time as some were in contest mode and others were not.  Saturday was easy to figure what was happening but if there were to have been a E's opening might have really made things interesting

73's

Bob  WA7ZWG

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[James C]

Not sure where but I've heard that people don't want to use Contest Mode on 50mhz. (hearsay)

Also, could be people who just want to work stations and not the contest.

I err'd with the rest of the cattle on .313 and ran non CM, as did about 80% of the stations I saw.

.-James K7KQA DN06

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[ba...@k7bwh.com]

When exactly should we use “NA VHF Contest Mode”?

I’m planning a cross-country trip this coming June with 50 MHz. I’m essentially a Rover since I’ll traverse a couple grids every day. If the band is NOT open then I’ll stop and call CQ with FT8 to make contacts. Of course, there’s no active “contest” going on. However I want the random contacts to know where I am so they know whether or not to work me again. It seems like Contest Mode would be perfect for providing my grid square instead of a signal report. However, if both ends of the contact aren’t configured for contest, then it gets very confusing. 

How should I handle this on my trip???

Barry K7BWH 

PS - I’ll beacon APRS but this seems pretty lame for random contacts. 

PPS - I think wsjtx needs to build in a way for the recipient to automatically figure out Contest Mode. 

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[jabeco]

You get grid square in both modes. 

I don't know why I'd want to ever use CM either Barry.  

I did hear that release rc4 has built in auto-CM or it's being worked on for next release or some such thing. 

Would love for someone to explain the benifit of CM over regular. 

Thanks

.-James K7KQA 

[Mark Spencer]

My general suggestion to anyone planning on a "non standard" operating activity while running the JT modes is to setup two stations and work thru the various configuration options and see what shows up on the other stations screen (and what you see as well.)

I felt this was time well spent prior to running the JT modes as a rover station for example.

Thar being said:

Barry if I was doing a grid expedition out side of a contest I expect I would not run contest mode on 50 MHz FT8.

73
Mark S
VE7AFZ

[Marshall P. Williams]

Hello all....The answer to when we should use the contest mode is ALWAYS!!

Several months ago, some of the ARRL bigwigs asked me to write an article
about all this.....and the mess that it has caused. I did so, and a link
to the first article is
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9l5oeiir4inn4x6/Contesting%20and%20Digital%20Modes.doc?dl=0

The ARRL folks deemed that article "too long", so I tried to cut it down
and the result is
https://www.dropbox.com/s/16i2j33cyca8sku/Contesting%20and%20Digital%20Modes-Short.doc?dl=0

Even this short version contained "too much information", so we cut it
down some more, resulting in
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sfuvq4wusxv74qu/Contesting%20and%20Digital%20Modes%20-%20ARRL-NEW4.pdf?dl=0

I believe that K1JT edited this last one and it was published by the ARRL
in one of their specialty magazines, but I am not sure of that. Because
the articles are several months old, there is a bit of dated information
there, but the gist of everything is correct. The bottom line is that if
one station is using the contest mode and the other one is not, there is a
software incompatibility that will foul a lot of contacts. We did not
make a single FT8 contact when we were in Zone2, because I could not get
the guys on the other end to send me GRIDS rather than +03 or some such.
The contacts do not proceed properly if one station is on contest mode and
the other is not.

It is NOT true that you get the grid either way, because a lot of the
newbies do not send the correct message first....they go right to the
second message which does not have the grid. This whole thing is a HUGE
mess that is caused by HF newbies that want to operate WSJT-X the way that
they are used to operating WSJT-HF. I thought that this issue was pretty
much put to bed after the last two contests, but I guess not. Certainly,
in the June contest and the July CQ WW, we all need to be using the
contest mode.

ASIDE: We worked very few FT8 contacts in the Jan contest(if any). We
worked tons of MSK144 contacts and earned a lot of grids that way. June
will undoubtedly be different.

Please read the articles and think about them. You can reply directly to
me at k5...@k5qe.com or via the reflector. Thoughtful replies gratefully
appreciated. Flames -----> bit bucket....they will not pass GO and will
certainly not collect $200.

73 Marshall K5QE
Charter Member of the Society to Eliminate "Funny Little Numbers"

On Mon, May 14, 2018 4:27 pm, jabeco wrote:
> You get grid square in both modes. 
> I don't know why I'd want to ever use CM either Barry.  
>
>
> I did hear that release rc4 has built in auto-CM or it's being worked on
> for next release or some such thing.  Would love for someone to explain
> the benifit of CM over regular. Thanks
>
> .-James K7KQA 
>
>
> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 2:18 PM, <ba...@k7bwh.com> wrote:

> When exactly should we use “NA VHF Contest Mode”?I’m planning a

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[James C]

Thank you for an explanation Marshall. 

Although I've not been party to such a QSO thus far on 50mhz I can understand the concern an HF'er coming to 50mhz and not understanding conventions.

It also comes down to is 'practice what you preach' because what W7BA Bob originally had said was pretty much on par.
Maybe 25% or so that I saw used CM, The rest was 'regular FT-8'

Again, I'll state that I've never NOT exchanged grid squares in non CM mode or any other mode (including MSK144)..It's the entire point for me. Without a grid square exchange the contact would be of little value.   

73, .-James K7KQA

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[Mark Spencer]

While I agree that it would be nice if we all used contest mode all the time, from reading this thread it seems that the use of contest mode on 50 MHz FT8 is still somewhat unusual. (It has been a few months since I last ran FT8.)

If I was undertaking a grid expedition on 50 MHz FT8 I expect I would run non contest mode, ensure the correct grid was in my CQ message and keep track of the grid I was in for each contact.

I suspect running contest mode on 50 MHz FT8 outside of a contest while trying to make random contacts would be sort of like trying to "push rope up hill." For scheduled contacts with fellow VHF enthuasiats I would ask that contest mode be used. I'd also be inclined to practice with a test station so I could recognize if someone was calling me in contest mode when I was running non contest mode or vice versa.

All the best
Mark S
VE7AFZ

[Mark Spencer]

Also my hat is off to Marshall for continuing to promote the use of contest mode. For a number of reasons I would like to see it used exclusively on 50 MHz and up when running the "JT" modes.

Hopefully the use of contest mode increases.

73
Mark S
VE7AFZ

[Dave Miller]

Thank you Marshall,
The long version of the article cleared up lots of questions I had.
Best point was if there is decent propagation use SSB or CW
Hope your recovery continues.
Dave
VE7HR

[ERIC OLSON]

Bob

The majority of the FT8 stations I worked were using contest mode.  A couple weren't and I am almost willing to bet one of them was just trying 6m propagation and not aware there was a sprint/ contest.  I forgot to switch back to contest mode after working them and switched mid QSO. 

For the other question about why contest mode VHF contest rules state the exchange must be a grid square and not a signal report.   The grid after a CQ call just shows where he is and how rare he is to you.  In my opinion grid exchanges are much more useful than signal reports and should be the norm all the time.

Thanks for the QSO!

73 Eric N7EPD

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[Marshall P. Williams]

Hello Dave and everyone interested in this topic...RR on SSB/CW if things
are "Open". Any decent op can work one every 10-15 sec on SSB if the band
is really open. There is no hope of anything like this on any of the
digital modes. A suggestion is that during times when Es is possible, you
should keep one of your VFOs on 50.125 or 50.130 looking for SSB using the
Dual Watch facility of your radio. If SSB is heard on Es, you can hit one
button and be there.

I did not mention it before, but as I recall, it takes 1 or 2 sequences
more to use the "funny little numbers" than it does to use the contest
mode.

Often, in an attempt to "shorten" the number of sequences, the people that
are NOT in the contest mode skip the first message which has the grid and
go right to the second or third message which(as I recall) don't have the
grid. This invalidates any contact, as you will not get his grid.

GRIDS mean something AND are required for contesting. The funny little
numbers don't mean anything. Why the WSJT-HF ops are so enamored with
them is a mystery.

GL to everyone in the June contest. I hope to work many PNW ops via Es on
6M or EME on 2M, 222, or 432. On your rising moon, I can work stations
that have one or two good antennas and 300+W, especially on 2M and 222. I
know this, if you don't try, you won't work me.

73 Marshall K5QE

[James C]

Hello Marshall and the rest following this thread.

I can respect you opinion regarding Contest Mode, But please a point of clarification, Are you using it ALL the time? or just during contest periods?

With a respectful tone, Let me ask you when was the last time you operated on .313 was? I've been running .313 for about the last 6 weeks on a daily basis and I can't find anyone who does run CM. One guy tried last night and it confused people on ON4KST (ask the crowd there what they think of CM mode).

Also I need to disagree with this: Often, in an attempt to "shorten" the number of sequences, the people that

are NOT in the contest mode skip the first message which has the grid and
go right to the second or third message which(as I recall) don't have the

grid.   This invalidates any contact, as you will not get his grid.'

As I've already stated, I've _never_ seen this and if I did, I'd skip it and run with the next guy I found. As harsh as it might sound, without a grid square exchange the contact is of little value to me.

I think we all what the same thing but as the saying goes, there's more then one way to skin a cat.

The wind is NOT blowing in favor of CM mode (as attested to by the Bobs, and evidenced by folks who spend much time on .313 and/or the loggers).

.-James K7KQA

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[Lance Collister, W7GJ]

Hi James,

You will find as the Es season progresses, that most 6m stations are interested in
just exchanging grids.  The faster you can do it the better ;-)   GL and VY 73, Lance

On 5/15/2018 13:42, James C wrote:
> Hello Marshall and the rest following this thread.
>
> I can respect you opinion regarding Contest Mode, But please a point of
> clarification, Are you using it ALL the time? or just during contest periods?
>
> With a respectful tone, Let me ask you when was the last time you operated on .313
> was? I've been running .313 for about the last 6 weeks on a daily basis and I can't
> find anyone who does run CM. One guy tried last night and it confused people on
> ON4KST (ask the crowd there what they think of CM mode).
>
> Also I need to disagree with this:Often, in an attempt to "shorten" the number of
> sequences, the people that
> are NOT in the contest mode skip the first message which has the grid and
> go right to the second or third message which(as I recall) don't have the

> grid.   This invalidates any contact, as you will not get his grid.'
>
>
> As I've already stated, I've_never_ seen this and if I did, I'd skip it and run

> with the next guy I found. As harsh as it might sound, without a grid square
> exchange the contact is of little value to me.
>
> I think we all what the same thing but as the saying goes, there's more then one
> way to skin a cat.
>
> The wind is NOT blowing in favor of CM mode (as attested to by the Bobs, and
> evidenced by folks who spend much time on .313 and/or the loggers).
>
> .-James K7KQA
>
> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:35 PM, Marshall P. Williams <k5...@k5qe.com
> <mailto:k5...@k5qe.com>> wrote:
>
> Hello Dave and everyone interested in this topic...RR on SSB/CW if things

> are "Open".  Any decent op can work one every 10-15 sec on SSB if the band
> is really open.  There is no hope of anything like this on any of the
> digital modes.  A suggestion is that during times when Es is possible, you

> should keep one of your VFOs on 50.125 or 50.130 looking for SSB using the

> Dual Watch facility of your radio.  If SSB is heard on Es, you can hit one

> button and be there.
>
> I did not mention it before, but as I recall, it takes 1 or 2 sequences
> more to use the "funny little numbers" than it does to use the contest
> mode.
>
> Often, in an attempt to "shorten" the number of sequences, the people that
> are NOT in the contest mode skip the first message which has the grid and
> go right to the second or third message which(as I recall) don't have the

> grid.   This invalidates any contact, as you will not get his grid.
>
> GRIDS mean something AND are required for contesting.  The funny little
> numbers don't mean anything.  Why the WSJT-HF ops are so enamored with
> them is a mystery.
>
> GL to everyone in the June contest.  I hope to work many PNW ops via Es on
> 6M or EME on 2M, 222, or 432.  On your rising moon, I can work stations
> that have one or two good antennas and 300+W, especially on 2M and 222.  I

> know this, if you don't try, you won't work me.
>
> 73 Marshall K5QE
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 14, 2018 9:59 pm, Dave Miller wrote:
> > Thank you Marshall,
> > The long version of the article cleared up lots of questions I had.
> > Best point was if there is decent propagation use SSB or CW
> > Hope your recovery continues.
> > Dave
> > VE7HR
> > On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 3:26:08 PM UTC-4, W7BA wrote:
> >
> >> I have a question for everyone; why were we not using NA VHF contest
> >> mode for the 6M Sprint Contest?
> >>
> >>
> >> 73, Bob, W7BA
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> >>
> >
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