Cw is not a digital mode

[STEPHEN L SALA]

In contesting, digital modes are those solely initiated by computers. Rtty is the most common. Joe Taylor has provided us with neat digital modes. CW is not recognized as digital. As an example, the upcoming wwdxc salmon run contest has three mode categories: phone, cw, and digital. Two or more modes used in the contest, subject to minimum % requirements, is considered a mixed mode. Entry.
Steve
K7awb

[Stephen Hanselman]

While you make good points I still stick by the idea that on-off transitions in a pattern define a digital code.

This was more of an amusement that the opening salvo in a digital v. CW. There is enough of that over on the moon-net reflector.  In other words it was a joke, or at least an attempt at one.

Having said that it still does meet both of the definitions of a digital signal.  It is an on-off coded pattern generated by the definition of a wet-wear computer with electrical connections to an electro-mechanical I/o device.

Again, it's meant to be a chuckle!  

Regards,

 

Stephen Hanselman, KC4SW

Datagate Systems, LLC

3107 North Deer Run Road #24

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[k6...@juno.com]

CW is the ORIGINAL digital mode.
No question about that.
K6YK

On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 18:29:21 +0000 STEPHEN L SALA <k7...@msn.com> writes:
>
> In contesting, digital modes are those solely initiated by
> computers. Rtty is the most common. Joe Taylor has provided us with
> neat digital modes. CW is not recognized as digital. As an example,
> the upcoming wwdxc salmon run contest has three mode categories:
> phone, cw, and digital. Two or more modes used in the contest,
> subject to minimum % requirements, is considered a mixed mode.
> Entry.
> Steve
> K7awb
>
> --
> ~The Voice of the Pacific NorthWest VHF Society~
> You are subscribed to the Google Groups "PNWVHFS" group.
> To post to this group, send email to PNW...@googlegroups.com
> To read message history, visit
> http://groups.google.com/group/PNWVHFS
> ---
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>

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[Stephen Kangas]

So, why is RTTY considered "digital" and CW is not? My teletype machine is not a computer, analog or otherwise, instead is an electromechanical devise as is a CW key. Of course, BOTH have been emulated via computer hardware & software technologies.

BTW, I understand the joke, but like some other humor it points out a real misunderstood issue. Curious minds want to know. Smacks of politics to me. 😉

Stephen W9SK (BSIT, BSEE)

[Mark Spencer]

I believe the concept of "machine generated" vs "human generated" signals may be at play here. (Yes I know CW can be generated by a computer and back when I used to contest with RTTY I could sometimes tell by listening to the audio from my receiver when a station was calling CQ without looking at the screen.)

I would characterize CW as a human generated Digital mode (:

Just my opinions (:

[k6...@juno.com]

I think the "new" definition of "digital" is anything that has to be
sent/received
by a computer or Teletype machine, and no operator brain involved. Other
than pushing a button
or clicking a mouse.

John, K6YK (NO BS, just an old telegraph guy)




On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 15:24:31 -0700 "Stephen Kangas" <ste...@kangas.com>
writes:

> So, why is RTTY considered "digital" and CW is not? My teletype
> machine is not a computer, analog or otherwise, instead is an
> electromechanical devise as is a CW key. Of course, BOTH have been
> emulated via computer hardware & software technologies.
>
> BTW, I understand the joke, but like some other humor it points out
> a real misunderstood issue. Curious minds want to know. Smacks of

> politics to me. ??

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[Frank Bechdoldt]

Digital is on and off, zeros and ones.
Analog is one of a few things.
Several tones. Or tones of a certain length.
In the case of CW you have 3 states.
1.Dead air.
2. Short tones.
3. Long Tones.

In digital you can replicate few by sending zeros for dead air. And a 1 for a dot and two 1's for a dash. But the computer or the operator has to make two actions to make the dash.

In cw only one action is made doing either a dot or a dash.

Frank
K3uhf


Sent from my iPhone

[Del Morissette]

To add to the discussion (and, hopefully, the chuckle):

CW can easily be generated by a computer (and certainly much better, faster, and cleaner than I can do it by hand). On the reception side, some of the new software decoders are also much better than I at decoding it.

Wonder if we will have a new split in the CW contest community with computer generated/read CW being grouped with the digital modes while  those of you with the skill to do it the old fashioned way still have a CW category?

[Stephen Kangas]

Slight clarification: in digital signals, it is VERY common for short and long "on" (1) and "off" (0) states. A "clock" signal is used to measure timing in order to separate consecutive 1s and 0s...similar to how the human brain's internal "clock" separates "dots" and "dashes" in CW.

Also, as you likely already know, we live in an entirely analog world, ie no "real" digital exists (with arguably the exception at the quantum physics level of particle "spin" and similar traits, but even that is debated by some physicists as we continue to discover new "analog" states at the atomic level). The point there is that what we call digital modes MUST be converted from the human analog actions to digital, and back into an analog form before RF transmission, and back into the (hopefully) faithful digital form by the receiver, and finally back into some analog form for a human to perceive. Examples: human hand movement (which is analog) against an electromechanical device such as a Morse code key or computer keyboard switches (even Assistive device such as a microphone for speech recognition for the blind) that generates a signal that may be converted into a series of on/off digital states, which in turn is used to modulate an RF carrier, often by phase modulating a steady sound tone or RF frequency or amplitude modulating an analog RF carrier via "on" and "off" states (it's never a perfect on/off rise/fall, the RF signal overshoots, rings, etc, in an expected analog fashion), then a receiver picks up that RF signal with additional analog changes (fading, multipath, etc), the digital signal is demodulated and processed in ways that often mimic an entirely analog receiving system, finally the digital signal is converted to an analog form suitable for the human as a pattern of lighted symbols on a display monitor or sound emanating from a loudspeaker (or vibration for a deaf & blind person's hand).

I'm simply pointing out that there is essentially no difference between CW and PSK31 regarding the terminology we're using here...they're both digital, and they both must be present on the air and to/from humans in analog form. The distinction being drawn here is entirely political...what people disagree over based on what each may call "common sense" or some unstated or difficult to state characteristic and how each camp may have gained political support from others in their herd or pertinent government agency.

Another effect of this: during my entire computer industry career I have witnessed confusion on both sides of "analog" and "digital". Many digital engineers I know are so deep in the weeds of their profession that it is largely lost on them that we live in an purely analog world and they therefore sacrifice usability and user understanding for their preconceived notions when designing software and hardware. Many non-techies (read: managers and marketeers) see the world completely opposite and sacrifice innovation when selecting projects to fund or how to promote.

All of the above is why I find the original post humorous as intended. It's healthy IMO to point out the discontinuity in our community through humor (and otherwise), and spur discussion about things that sometimes don't make much sense. The joke is on us.

Stephen W9SK

-----Original Message-----
From: pnw...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pnw...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Bechdoldt
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2017 9:25 AM
To: k6...@juno.com
Cc: k7...@msn.com; PNW...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [PNWVHFS] Cw is not a digital mode