FT8 frequencies for 2m and 70cm --tentative decision

[Brett KG7GDB]

The FT-8 digital mode is extremely popular now. Part of the success lies in built in frequencies for HF through 6m. (For example 50.313 MHz is used on 6m, and is selected via a pull down menu on WSJT-X.)
A similar menu frequency choice isn't provided for 2m and 70 cm, but can be tuned manually.
We discussed the need to have a common operating frequency which meets ITU Region 2 band plans for CW, Digital, and SSB operations.

After some discussion at the conference, we will be testing 144.174 MHz USB for VHF club contacts, contesting and weak signal FT-8 work.
We will also try 432.500 MHz USB for UHF weak signal and contest work.

These frequencies are within the Region 2 band plan for SSB,CW, and DM allocations, and shouldn't interfere with EME, beacons, or other common amateur uses.
Please test the feasibility of using FT8 on these frequencies. If we can provide a "watering holes" for this mode, it should facilate unscheduled contacts, and may help us make better use of sporadic and tropospheric openings.

You may want to try 5-100 watts power at first to see how well you do.
On HF, it is possible to send and receive to -23 dB with no errors.

Using PSKreporter and self-spotting you will see other receiving stations mapped with signal reports. Use this to help understand your antenna pattern, reach, etc. Try leaving you rig tuned to the frequencies and just receive other stations for several hours to catch openings.

Any ideas or feedback on the use of these frequencies for FT8 are helpful.
Thanks in advance for you input.

Brett
KG7GDB
Salem, OR CN84ku

[Phil Logan-Kelly]

Personally, Brett, I think MSK144 might be better than FT-8 on 6 and up. With even a dipole in this mode signals can be bounced off of aircraft and meteor trails. I'm guessing they can also be pounced off of mountains like Rainier or Hood and most of us have beams. It only takes about 1/2 second to decode a signal.

Just my thoughts.

Phil

KD7ZD

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

[Mark Spencer]

I'm happy to try FT8 bands over 50 MHz. I have some concerns about the frequency stability of my radios when using FT8 on 144 MHz and up but I don't see any harm in trying.

73
Mark S
VE7AFZ

[Roger]

FT8 was used throughout this last E's season on 50.313. I made many east coast contacts where other modes would have never worked from my QTH.

73, Roger

W7TZ

CN83ia

Grid Busters 

w7tz.webs.com

--
~The Voice of the Pacific NorthWest VHF Society~
You are subscribed to the Google Groups "PNWVHFS" group.
To post to this group, send email to PNW...@googlegroups.com
To read message history, visit http://groups.google.com/group/PNWVHFS
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PNWVHFS" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pnwvhfs+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Michael Schulz]

More than happy to point the antenna south and let it run during the day to see what I can hear and let WSJT-X send
reports to pskreporter.

73 Mike K5TRI

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pnwvhfs+u...@googlegroups.com.

[Roger]

Glad to hear a 2m freq has been established for FT8. Let the fun begin.

73, Roger

W7TZ

CN83ia

Grid Busters 

w7tz.webs.com

[Mark Spencer]

Anyone interested in trying FT8 on 144 MHz before or after the Tuesday and Sunday 144 MHz nets ?

I'm also trying to get back in the habit of running MSK144 on 144 MHz on week day mornings before 07:30 local.

73
Mark S
VE7AFZ

[Michael Schulz]

I had a similar thought given that people are already in front of their
radios :).

I'd be up for that.

As for MS .. I'll be looking for you on Pingjockey. I'm usually on there
around 6 am PST in the morning while having
my first coffee.

73 Mike K5TRI

[Mark Spencer]

K7VE is qrv now on 144.174 FT8

Audible in my loud speaker.

Am calling back with 200 watts but no luck so far.

[Mark Spencer]

Thanks Mike. Hope to work you on one or more of the digital modes in 144 MHz. If FT8 is viable on 144 MHz from my home station I'll try and schedule a portable outing to test things out in the field.

(I have some nagging doubts about the frequency stability of my radios (especially in a portable setting vs running in my shack.)

[Michael Schulz]

Running right now pointing 180 deg from CN87wp. Will go QRT at 2100z.

Thanks Mark for first 144 MHz FT-8 QSO!

73 Mike K5TRI

[Mark Spencer]

And K5TRI and I just completed in FT8..

His signal was speaker audible on my end.

The Freq as displayed by WSJT-x started at 1495 and ended at 1468. Still we managed to complete. (I'm not sure where the drift came from it, may well have been from my receive converter.)

Much fun (:

Thanks Mike !

73 Mark S
VE7AFZ

[Michael Schulz]

Speaker "copy" here as well. I was running 100 W into 14 elements on a 15' boom mounted on the mast on the roof of my house
approx. 25 ft. above ground.

I'm suspecting the drift came from my IC-746pro as it was turned on just a minute prior to our contact. Either way, good fun. Too
bad we're too close for MS :).

202000 -9 -0.0 1417 ~ CQ VE7AFZ CN89 ~Canada

------------------------------------- 2m

202030 -5 -0.0 1430 ~ CQ VE7AFZ CN89 ~Canada

------------------------------------- 2m

202200 -4 -0.1 1431 ~ K5TRI VE7AFZ +13

------------------------------------- 2m

202230 -7 -0.1 1430 ~ K5TRI VE7AFZ RRR

73 Mike K5TRI

[Michael Schulz]

I see somebody running right now but the timing is off, so no decodes.

If you're on Windows, right click on the time in the status bar, select "Adjust Date/Time" and find the settings for
setting the time. Click on "Internet time", then "Change Settings". There you can either sync directly with time.nist.gov
or time.windows.com which are more or less the same by clicking on "Sync Now".

If you're on Linux, simply enter "ntpdate pool.ntp.org" in your shell of choice.

73 Mike K5TRI

--
~The Voice of the Pacific NorthWest VHF Society~
You are subscribed to the Google Groups "PNWVHFS" group.
To post to this group, send email to PNW...@googlegroups.com
To read message history, visit http://groups.google.com/group/PNWVHFS
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PNWVHFS" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pnwvhfs+u...@googlegroups.com.

[Mark Spencer]

Cool.. 9 elements here (also on an approx 15 foot boom.) maybe 40 feet above ground level beaming at approx 165 degrees. (My usual heading for working into the PNW.)

Was running approx 100 watts, using my mashup of an icom706Mkiig (with TCXO) on TX, Demi converter on RX feeding an Icom 7300, power amp, pre amp and some other bits and pieces to cope with strong near by signals just below the ham band.

Thanks again

73
Mark S
VE7AFZ

[KJ6KO]

Something to keep in mind on FT8, if one of you is drifting a little, the program will follow the drift on both ends causing both to move around the band.  Best thing to do is once you have established a freq, uncheck the "TX=RX" box and your tx will stay still but the RX will follow the one that is drifting.

 

Looking forward to trying you guys up there from down here in CM98! 

 

1KW and 17el on 2m

 

KJ6KO

[Mark Spencer]

Good point. I'm also thinking we should probably spread ourselves out a bit more than normal on HF and 50 MHz. So far when operating from my home station the software seems to be coping with the typical drift on 144 MHz. My radios also seem to be doing quite a bit better than the typical .5 ppm stability spec for a TCXO. I'll be curious to see what happens while roving / operating portable.

I'm also making an effort not to TX un necessairly when I see other stations trying to complete.

73
Mark S
VE7AFZ

[Brett KG7GDB]

Speaking of spread-PSKreporter shows lots of contacts on 144.200 FT8 now (Monday ) Nice DX, distances, too. Take a look.

Also, KN7K (CN85) was heard by K4AR in EM76  reported on PSKreporter on FT8 145.371--Is that shift into the repeater allocation real? We definitely need to stay away from repeaters. I'm going to email KN7K and see what he actually used.

I'm not sure about using the SSB/CW  144.200 calling frequency for FT8. It may cause QRM for those CW operators, right? It is very convenient to have a place to rest your receiver and leave it to decode.

This is why we should try a unique frequency we can agree on for this mode.

I'm going to leave my GP9 vertical on receive in CN84ku on 144.200 today and see what I can hear today, but I will move it to 144.174 for Tuesday.

 Hopefully someone can hit me down here for a test. 

I can also receive 432.500 on that GP9 antenna, and while it is not a beam, it is pretty sensitive to received signals, and I'm spotting every 15secs.

-Brett

KG7GDB

[Brett KG7GDB]

I contacted Sergey, KN7K by email and got a very strange reply:

"I think it is some kind of mistake.

I am TX-ng today FT8 on 18,21,24,28 and 50mhz to check propagation and working only on 18mhz."

Wow, some kind of glitch or error in spotting; I guess we don't have to worry about QRM on the repeater band.

I downloaded the WSJT-X RC3 software which came out on Monday 16-Oct, and will be receiving on 144.174 today using my GP-9 vertical in CN84ku over the hills from most of you in South Salem.

A strong bounce off Mary's Peak may reach me, but most of you will probably not copy my CQs. I will transmitting occasionally today with about 45 watts. Sorry I don't have my 2m beam installed at this time. I will try to transmit and receive before and after the 2m SSB Tuesday weak signal net.

Check to see if any 2m spots occur on

 

https://pskreporter.info/pskmap.html

-Brett

KG7GDB

[Don Poaps]

I'm new using FT 8 Call on HF. In our area, we have a lot of Hams who cannot use HF antenna's etc. I have been mentioned this on va7rby 145.350 on Thursday 8:00 pm (sudden hint) I'm very interested in the VHF/UHF frequency  

73

Don

[Charles Miller]

As far as I've been able to determine, it looks like 144.174 and 432.065 for FT8. I don't think it has been finalized yet.

73, Chuck N6KW

--

~The Voice of the Pacific NorthWest VHF Society~
You are subscribed to the Google Groups "PNWVHFS" group.
To post to this group, send email to PNW...@googlegroups.com
To read message history, visit http://groups.google.com/group/PNWVHFS
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PNWVHFS" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pnwvhfs+u...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to pnw...@googlegroups.com.

[ERIC OLSON]

That seems to be what folks are using.

But make sure you have VHF/UHF features enabled and N/A contest mode checked.

Eric N7EPD

---

From: pnw...@googlegroups.com <pnw...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Charles Miller <alu...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 9:32:06 AM
To: pnw...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [PNWVHFS] Re: FT8 frequencies for 2m and 70cm --tentative decision

 

[ba...@k7bwh.com]

432.065 or 432.075?

 

At one time I was told 432.075 so that’s what I put on the PNW web page for Digital Modes. I don’t want to muddy the waters; as webmaster I just want to  publish whatever people agree on.

 

Barry Hansen K7BWH
PNWVHFS Webmaster

Seattle, WA  CN87us

 

From: pnw...@googlegroups.com <pnw...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Charles Miller
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2018 9:32 AM
To: pnw...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [PNWVHFS] Re: FT8 frequencies for 2m and 70cm --tentative decision

 

As far as I've been able to determine, it looks like 144.174 and 432.065 for FT8. I don't think it has been finalized yet.

73, Chuck N6KW

---

On 2018-09-08 08:48, Don Poaps wrote:

[Hal Goodell, N7NW]

Right in the EME area.  How about going above 432.1?

 

Hal, N7NW

[Mark Spencer]

I seem to recall running FT8 on 432.500 several months ago.

[Hal Goodell, N7NW]

That would be a good choice.

Hal

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Spencer
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2018 11:01 AM
To: PNWVHFS
Subject: Re: [PNWVHFS] Re: FT8 frequencies for 2m and 70cm --tentative
decision

[Paul Drahn]

That was in my notes from the last conference. But no one there!

Paul, KD7HB

On 9/9/2018 11:01 AM, Mark Spencer wrote:
> I seem to recall running FT8 on 432.500 several months ago.
>

--
Paul Drähn (pronounced:drain), President
Jodeco, Inc.
an electronics assembly service
217 SW Pumice Ave. suite G
Redmond, OR 97756

[map9...@gmail.com]

Hi All,

It would be great if the whole country was in sync. with call frequencies
and center frequencies.

Hope this information will help you all.

For 432, here's what's going on in the Eastern US
432.000-.070 EME (all modes)
432.070-.200 SSB/CW (and maybe some digital) operating
432.100 SSB/CW call frequency
432.150-.200 A very few Beacons
432.270-.400 Beacons (actual, but most beacons are in the .300-.350 segment)
432.300-.400 Beacons per ARRL and IARU Region 2

FT8 and other digital mode operations in the 432.200-.300 and/or
432.400-433.000 segments would be unlikely to cause interference to other
existing stations. To be fair, except for the beacons, there is little weak
signal operation above 432.150.

At our Eastern VHF Conference, last April, Tony, K8ZR had a talk and
subsequent spirited discussion on "VHF Band Plans for FT8" to a packed room.
Both 50 and 432 were commented on as mostly not a problem with interference,
but 144 was a different story.

So, most of the discussion was about 144. The choice of 144.174 as the FT8
center freq. was the main issue. By April, interference had already happened
on the East Coast. There's some established regular use by SSB ops, and a
couple of nets, in that immediate area, especially on 144.175. A couple of
months after the conference, a proposal to move FT8 down to around 144.165
was fairly well received, but nothing was decided. There were comments from
the Digital EME ops that they would suffer interference if terrestrial
digital modes moved down in frequency, as some Digital EME ops says they
need to use 144.100 to .150. But, for the amount of Digital EME that is
actually ongoing, the need for 50 Khz is overstated. Given the nature and
mostly narrow bandwidths of the different digital modes, both EME and
terrestrial should be able to easily fit into 144.100-.165. That is, at this
time. Who knows how the digital world will change in a few years. But, the
likelihood that the bandwidth of Digital signals will get even more narrow
is pretty good, and Digital operations will require even less spectrum. Of
course, just like any of us using any legal mode, a couple of digital
stations wanting to make a contact could listen and find a clear frequency
and use any part of 2 meters above 144.100.

For FT8 center frequencies, how 'bout something like this?
144.160
222.160 or .260
432.260 (or maybe 432.160) 432.500 would be a fine choice also.
902.160 or .260 or 903.160 or .260
1296.160 or .260
2304.160 or .260
3456.160 or .260
5760.160 or .260
10368.160 or .260
etc. There may be some potential minor interference issues on 222, 432, and
902/903.

73
Mark Casey, K1MAP
Hampden, Mass. FN32sb
NEWS

VHF Super Conference – April 25-28, 2019
Holiday Inn - Washington-Dulles Airport
Sterling, VA

[Roger]

Although posting a list of standard operating frequencies per band per mode at the operating station is SOP for me (old and lack of gray matter),  it would certainly be nice if the agreed upon band plan had the common khz freq. Thanks to all who take the time to attend the gatherings and participate in planning processes. Though it's rarely expressed, the multitudes like me that you support, appreciate it.

73, Roger

W7TZ

CN83ia

Grid Busters 

w7tz.webs.com

[Mark Spencer]

Hi Mark. From my perspective in CN89 I wouldn't be hugely enthused about running FT8 on a USB dial frequency of 144.160

I'd like to stay as far away from both the MSK144 calling frequency (144.150) and the SSB calling frequency (144.200) as possible. As stations tend to qsy up when the calling frequencies are busy I could see MSK144 going up to a USB dial frequency of at least 144.156 or so during a busy contest. That would allow for one station on 144.150, one station on 144.153 and one station on 144.156. As MSK operations at times use 30 second sequences and FT8 uses 15 second sequences I don't see this working out very well for a near by user running FT8 on 144.160

I realize that in other parts of the country 144.174 is a poor choice for FT8 but in my view it is good for for use in BC and Washington. Having as much separation as possible from other users would seem helpful to me for a weak signal mode.

The custom in this region seems to be to space 144 MHz SSB voice frequencies in 10 KHz intervals during contests and ideally I'd like to see similar spacing for the digital modes that run within a SSB voice channel. It would be a great problem to have if there was enough activity in this region to require a narrower spacing but in the absence of that activity I'd like to maximize the chances of making contacts with the station a that are on the air buy using channel spacing that make the best use of the bandwidth in the region.

Perhaps we do need a separate frequency for trans continental FT8 use ?

73
Mark S
VE7AFZ

[Brett KG7GDB]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to mention that the original suggestion for the 144.174 frequency last year at the conference was that no one had decided on the calling 2M FT8 frequency, and it wasn't part of the WSJT-X preprogrammed frequencies. 

144.174  was similar enough to the 20M FT8 "watering hole" 14.074 to make it easier to remember, and it was within the band plan for digital modes. (144.175 would also work for 144.174 users because the mode uses a 2500 Hz passband decode and can even decode overlapping signals)

After a year, FT8 is by far the most popular digital mode; just check PSKreporter.info statistics. As I write this, 461,563 FT8 spots have been made in the last two hours. FT8Call is next at 1025. JT65 had 93 spots. (Of course WSJT-X automatically uploads FT8 spots every 15 seconds, but the mode definitely is the most popular on all bands).

I think a lot of the success of FT8 is that people can just tune in to a "watering hole," and wait to see if you can decode anything. You don't need a Sked; just call CQ!

Unlike CW or phone signals, I don't find much success tuning around and listening for the sound of the mode. At -20 dB, a signal barely appears on the waterfall; you can't hear it over the noise. But most stations can complete that -20dB contact if there aren't competing louder stations in a pileup, and you have controlled for RFI using ferrites and grounding.

 

I agree we should steer away from EME and MSK144  frequencies, and also the WSPR beacon at 144.489.

The operation on those digital modes use radically different power levels than FT8 (up to legal limit on EME and MSK144, and only up to 50 watts on WSPR). FT8 works quite well on 50 watts on any frequency, and it plays well with others on the band. 

 

In my experience using my all mode radio (IC-7100) for 6m, 2m, and 70cm, there is insufficient dynamic range to  decode both weak signal FT8 at -22dB and high power operations are coming in at +17dB. I try to use 50W or less on all FT8 contacts on all Ham frequencies. Your DX success on FT8 will be due more to favorable propagation--Sporadic E conditions and other stations around listening and replying to your CQ.

FT8 works pretty well on 2M locally using 50w power.  I can't reach the Tuesday evening SSB 2M net (K0JJ in Scapoose) on SSB phone using a short element Yagi, but in testing FT8 before the net, I have successfully copied stations up to 125 miles away using a GP-9 vertical antenna.

People don't seem to be using FT8 much on 70cm in our region. Barry has published 432.075 as the FT8 frequency on the PNWVHFS site.

I don't have a strong opinion on using 432.075 vs. 432.500. Let's just decide on a frequency and start testing it.   We should avoid calling frequencies, EME,  and the WSPR beacon at 432.300, because we don't want to mix strong and weak signal transmissions.

I have tested FT8 with WA9ONY (CN85) using 35W on 432.500 with a corner reflector, and 50W on 144.174 using Quagi, and a GP9 vertical.  We have exchanged similar signal reports on both bands (-14 to -16 dB). Those levels allow perfect FT8 copy over the 61 miles and several mountains between Camas and Salem. 

Anyone else want to try FT8 on 70cm? I'll leave the radio on receive! I just need a frequency!

-Brett

KG7GDB CN84ku