Looking for Help with A Puzzling Set of Characters 八角

[LeRon Harrison]

Hello PMJS Readership,

I'm more of a watcher of the Listserv, but as I'm repeatedly running into a wall I thought I'd reach out to see if I could some help with this problem. I'm beginning a translation of the Taigensho (體源抄), the treatise by the Muromachi period sho player Toyohara Muneaki, but finding a reading for these first two character is turning up nothing. The entire opening sentence of the introduction is:

八角しる御めぐみ世にあまねくをはしませば、九重のうちまとに嵐のかぜも枝をならさぬ時にあひて、人の心ものびらかに、民のｋまど烟（けむり）たえずぞ有りける。

I'm inclined to read the 八 as やつ due to the 九重 which appears in this sentence and a yatsushima in the next sentence, but I'm not finding entry for these two characters together. Any help the Listserv could give on this is very greatly appreciated.

LeRon Harrison

[Huisu Yun]

I think It might be related to 八隅知 found in Old Japanese poetry, in which case 八角しる would be read yasumi shiru.

However, I'm not really sure, since I'm not familiar with classical Japanese texts.

Huisu Yun

2021년 9월 27일 월요일 오후 2시 30분 52초 UTC+9에 LeRon Harrison님이 작성:

[David Eason]

Dear Dr. Harrison,

I just saw your message to the list and, although it is well beyond my
area of expertise, in looking over the line of text that you included I
started to wonder if maybe the characters「八角」are read “hakkaku” and are
a
reference to the octagonal shaped bronze lantern (八角灯籠) cast and placed
in
front of the Daibutsuden at Tōdaiji in 752.

The lantern is adorned on four of its eight sides with reliefs depicting 「音
声菩薩」 (onjō bosatsu), and in each of the four reliefs this same
Bodhisattva
is shown playing a different instrument, including a shō in the
southeastern panel.


Sincerely,

David Eason

---
Dr. David Eason (デービット・イーソン)
准教授、外国語学部、関西外国語大学
david...@gmail.com / easo...@kansaigaidai.ac.jp
「己が分を知りて及ばざる時は速かに止むを智といふべし」





On 9/27/21, 2:36 AM, "'LeRon Harrison' via PMJS: Listserv"

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[Mikhail Skovoronskikh]

Dear Dr. Harrison,

To me this combination of characters appears to be an alternative spelling of やすみしる, which seems to be more commonly rendered 八隅知る in modern publications.

Best regards,

Mikhail Skovoronskikh

[Richard Bowring]

I think this should be read ‘yasumi’, ie 八隅, the whole world.
Richard Bowring

[GUELBERG Niels]

Dear LeRon,

it is a makurakotoba (「やすみしる」) used for the emperor.

See Masafusa's poem in Gyokuyo wakashu no. 1096:

「やすみしるわがすべらぎの御世にこそさかゐのむらの水もすみけれ」

Hope that helps

Niels

---

差出人: pm...@googlegroups.com <pm...@googlegroups.com> が Richard Bowring <rb...@cam.ac.uk> の代理で送信
送信日時: 2021年9月27日 15:28
宛先: pm...@googlegroups.com <pm...@googlegroups.com>
件名: Re: [PMJS] Looking for Help with A Puzzling Set of Characters 八角

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/C8E0103F-DBC3-4130-A983-E0482507CC13%40cam.ac.uk.

[David Eason]

Dear All,

I am glad to see that actual experts have chimed in. The reading “yasumi”
shiru seems to be undoubtedly correct.

In my haste I should have written in my last message - but did not - that
I was not suggesting the term 八角 was a direct reference to the lantern in
front of Tōdaiji but rather that I thought that through this particular
phrasing the text might be at least invoking it and the connected image of
“onjō bosatsu” in some fashion. Now, that, too may turn out to be nothing
more than a hasty and ill-informed guess on my part, as I do not have
access to a copy of the full text, but I am in any case relieved to see
others providing more grounded explanations.


Best,

David Eason

---
Dr. David Eason (デービット・イーソン)
准教授、外国語学部、関西外国語大学
david...@gmail.com / easo...@kansaigaidai.ac.jp
「己が分を知りて及ばざる時は速かに止むを智といふべし」

On 9/27/21, 3:28 PM, "Richard Bowring" <pm...@googlegroups.com on behalf of

>https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/C8E0103F-DBC3-4130-A983-E0482507CC1
>3%40cam.ac.uk.

[LeRon Harrison]

Thank you everyone for your help with this. Muneaki draws on and make references to poetry so opening with a makurakotoba makes total sense. David, thank you for your input on the lantern. One of the reasons for translating Taigensho is its intersectionality; Muneaki talks about Japanese literature, Chinese poetry, and NIchiren Buddhism and their relationship to court music. That the swapping the character 角 in for 隅 points to something is a possibility. He may have the lantern and the Bosatsu in mind. I'll keep that in mind when I get to the sections where he discusses Nichiren Buddhism and Lotus Sutra. Again thank you everyone for your help with this.

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[Alexander Vovin]

Yasumisisi (actually yasumitisi) is perfectly analyzable makura-kotoba) If we read man'yōgana correctly it is yasu mit--i-si "was filled with pease/ease'. For further details seemy commentary to MYS 1.3  (Vovin, Brill 2017,pp. 25-26). Hope this helps,

Best wishes,

Alexander Vovin
Membre élu d'Academia Europaea
Directeur d'études, linguistique historique du Japon, de la Corée et de l'Asie centrale

ECOLE DES HAUTES ETUDES EN SCIENCES SOCIALES;

CENTRE DE RECHERCHES LINGUISTIQUES SUR L'ASIE ORIENTALE

Membre associé de CENTRE DE RECHERCHES SUR LE JAPON

Laureate of 2015 Japanese Institute for Humanities Prize for a Foreign Scholar

Editor-in-chief, series Languages of Asia, Brill

Co-editor, of International Journal of Eurasian Linguistics, Brill

PI of the ERC Advanced Project, AN ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE JAPONIC LANGUAGES

105 Blvd Raspail, 75006 Paris

sasha...@gmail.com
https://ehess.academia.edu/AlexanderVovin

https://www.edj-vovin.com/

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[Robert F Wittkamp]

Dear Mr. Vovin,

the reading “yasu mit—i-si” has been criticized by Torquil Duthie (2018, Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies 81.1, pp. 182-183), and I have to agree. For in Shoki nihongi, 日竝知 repeatedly stands for “Hinamishi” (or “PÎnamîsi” in your Book 1, p. 127), who is Kusakabe no miko (see for example Shin Nihon koten bungaku taikei volumes 12, p.2 and 13, p.2). Without doubt 知 represent shi/si. 

With regards, 

Robert Wittkamp

Am 2021/09/29 um 04:32 schrieb Alexander Vovin <sasha...@gmail.com>:



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[Alexander Vovin]

Dear Mr. Whittkamp,

I am afraid I find Duthie's critique not substantiated by any substantial arguments. His only argument is that the reading YASUMISISI was maintained for 800 years. But as we all well know, "respect the authorities, but trust none". My response to that is quite simple.

1) The first commentary on the MYS is 500 years later than the original text. By the 13th c. the language underwent a radical restructuring of its phonology, of which the folks in the 13th c. were not aware.

2) YASUMISISI does not make any sense, while YASU MIT-I-SI does.

3) The simple fact is that 知 has Late Han Chinese (LHC) reading /tri/, which became Early Middle Chinese /ți/ with a retrolex initial -- a highly unlikely sound to transcribe /s/.

As for your comment, please read my commentary attentively.  It cleanly states that  知 OCCURS for /si/ only in the texts written with man'yōgana B. In man'yōgana group A it can't be used for SI only for TI.

All the best,

Alexander Vovin
Membre élu d'Academia Europaea
Directeur d'études, linguistique historique du Japon, de la Corée et de l'Asie centrale

ECOLE DES HAUTES ETUDES EN SCIENCES SOCIALES;

CENTRE DE RECHERCHES LINGUISTIQUES SUR L'ASIE ORIENTALE

Membre associé de CENTRE DE RECHERCHES SUR LE JAPON

Laureate of 2015 Japanese Institute for Humanities Prize for a Foreign Scholar

Editor-in-chief, series Languages of Asia, Brill

Co-editor, of International Journal of Eurasian Linguistics, Brill

PI of the ERC Advanced Project, AN ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE JAPONIC LANGUAGES

105 Blvd Raspail, 75006 Paris

sasha...@gmail.com
https://ehess.academia.edu/AlexanderVovin

https://www.edj-vovin.com/

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 3:57 PM Alexander Vovin <sasha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Mr. Whitkamp

I am afraid I find duties critique without  basis. Someone has to have a thorough understanding of OJ historical phonology and the way how man'yoogana works. As for your comment, please read my commentary attentively.  It cleanly states that  SIRU OCCURS for si only in the texts with man'yogana B. In manyogana group A it can't be used for SI only for TI.

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[Robert F Wittkamp]

Dear Mr. Vovin,

as for the reconstruction of the readings from the late Heian period onwards, I agree with you completely. I know, of course, that in some respects we are much closer to the texts today than people were 1000 years ago.

Following your advice, I have re-read the commentaries on poems 1.3 (yasumishishi/yasu mîtisi) and 1.49 (hinamishi/PÎnamîsi), this time as attentively as possible. However, in you commentary you write “But 知 always stands for ti, never for si” (p. 24), and I could not find your subdivision into “man’yōgana A” and “man’yōgana B.” Please let me know to which commentary you are referring to.  

Furthermore, I have to add that I am not entirely convinced of your interpretation as „was filled with pea[c]e/ease.“ Poem 1.38 contains Hitomaro’s writing 安見知之 for yasumishishi. You don’t explain this, but Omodaka, who has 知 in his man’yōgana list for chi but not shi (!), explains as 安らかに見そなわす (Jidaibetsu kokugo daijiten jōdaihen, p. 761). This reading also provides problems, but, on the other hand, it is well known that Hitomaro experimented a lot with Chinese characters and that “to see” had a strong political meaning. His interpretation as “to see” may be wrong, but it should not be dismissed easily. At least, it is something that an educated contemporary saw in the phrase. In other words, even if your interpretation is correct, the phrase may have a different meaning or different meanings in the Man’yōshū. As I’m sure you know, in Book 1 we are talking about here, Jitō Tennō is clearly depicted as a “seeing ruler.”

Be that as it may, my “comment” refers neither to Duthie’s argument nor the Man’yōshū, but to the Shoku nihongi. As I have written, shi or si in “PÎnamîsi” (your reading; a reading that you do not question)/ hinamishi is written there with the character 知 (日竝知). Thus, for me as a layman in linguistics 知 in Shoku nihongi stands for shi/si. Does this use thus belong to what you call “man’yōgana B”? In any case, in the Shoku nihongi, it is not a problem of the reading reconstructed centuries later, but of the original writing which leaves no doubt. Perhaps the problem needs further exploration.

By the way, I personally do not exclude the possibility that something that “does not make any sense” today may nevertheless had made sense a long time ago. Hitomaro possibly tried to make “his sense” better comprehensible, and it also must have made some sense to those five scholars from the Nashitsubo poem office who started to translate the Man’yōshū two centuries later. However, these constructions of “sense” do not fit with your interpretation. “Sense” is a concept of cultural and social (or communication) studies, and I have to think about the question of whether “it does not make any sense” can be an academic argument for the interpretation of ancient texts. At least, Hitomaro proved you wrong.

With best regards,

Robert Wittkamp

2021/10/09 1:07、Alexander Vovin <sasha...@gmail.com>のメール:



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