Kanji Question from Kamakura

[Mark Schumacher]

Hi PMJS Members

As always, I am confused.

When comparing magic mirrors 魔鏡 from the Edo period,

I run across three variations in Amida's Nenbutsu 念佛.

旡 ・ 无 ・ 無 (how about 𣠮?). Do they all mean the same thing? Why the difference?

See examples below.

--

MARK SCHUMACHER Tel/Fax: 0467-67-5005 (in Japan) and 81-467-67-5005 (outside Japan) https://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/buddhism.shtml

[Michael Jamentz]

Hello Mark et al.

I recommend the glypwiki site. You can see many alternative characters for 無, including the ones you mention. 

I don't know why anyone would choose other characters, except for obvious ease in producing the simpler versions.

https://glyphwiki.org/wiki/u7121

Best,

m jamentz

--
PMJS is a forum dedicated to the study of premodern Japan.
To post to the list, email pm...@googlegroups.com
For the PMJS Terms of Use and more resources, please visit www.pmjs.org.
Contact the moderation team at mod...@pmjs.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PMJS: Listserv" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pmjs+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/c03ffb67-1381-1a4e-bf2d-be077df1356b%40onmarkproductions.com.

[Brian Ruppert]

Dear Mark,

Hello! I would just note that  无 ・ 無 mean exactly the same thing--the former easy to write in any medium, essentially. I'm not quite sure about the first is read as "mu(seru)" or "mu(sebu)", is based on the middle character 无, though the meaning in museru is to choke (on food etc.). My guess is that the use of this special first character is an oddity, constituting only a variation on the exact same meaning (部首＝无）. I doubt there's anything else going on. I see that Michael Jamentz has just responded too.

Take care,

Brian Ruppert

Kanagawa University

On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 12:15 PM Mark Schumacher <m...@onmarkproductions.com> wrote:

--

PMJS is a forum dedicated to the study of premodern Japan.
To post to the list, email pm...@googlegroups.com
For the PMJS Terms of Use and more resources, please visit www.pmjs.org.
Contact the moderation team at mod...@pmjs.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PMJS: Listserv" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pmjs+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/c03ffb67-1381-1a4e-bf2d-be077df1356b%40onmarkproductions.com.

[Lisa Kochinski]

Hi Mark, 

The reading for 无 is mu, so 南无 reads namu. 旡 Is an alternate form of 无, so 南旡 also reads namu.

Hope you are doing well in Kamakura!

Best regards,

Lisa

--

PMJS is a forum dedicated to the study of premodern Japan.
To post to the list, email pm...@googlegroups.com
For the PMJS Terms of Use and more resources, please visit www.pmjs.org.
Contact the moderation team at mod...@pmjs.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PMJS: Listserv" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pmjs+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/c03ffb67-1381-1a4e-bf2d-be077df1356b%40onmarkproductions.com.

--

Lisa Kochinski


携帯電話から送信
Sent from my mobile

[Lisa Kochinski]

Hello again Mark,

To continue the discussion, there are many different ways of rendering the sounds of the two characters in namu. In the 南無 entry in the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism, Charles Muller lists:  南牟; 南謨; 南忙; 那謨, 那模, 那麻, 納莫, 納慕; 娜母; 曩莫, 曩謨, 捺麻, 捺謨, etc.

Best regards,

Lisa Kochinski

PhD Candidate (ABD)

University of Southern California

[Cynthea Bogel]

Dear colleagues,

On the topic of reading Japanese, I am reminded of a relatively new app for Kuzushiji, MIWO, developed by Tarin Clanuwat, a classical literature and informatics scholar.

On the app:

https://fontstand.com/news/essays/kuzushiji-recognition-with-ai/

which also has a bibliography for her.

Also this:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/interview-tarin-clanuwat-classical-japanese-literature/id1473685440?i=1000467798911

For learning there is also KuLA:

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/%E3%81%8F%E3%81%9A%E3%81%97%E5%AD%97%E5%AD%A6%E7%BF%92%E6%94%AF%E6%8F%B4%E3%82%A2%E3%83%97%E3%83%AAkula/id1076911000

which has an age rating of 4 years old and over… .

And for those of you headed to Japan at long last, there is this related exhibition! A gaggle of non-Japanese cursive script-readers should turn up and disabuse them. I can’t report on it as I am in the US., but I hope someone else will do so.

Regards,

Cynthea

Cynthea J. Bogel

 , 

Professor, Kyushu University

Visiting Scholar, The Edwin O. Reischauer Institute of Japanese Studies at Harvard University (Feb. 2022–Feb. 2023)  

On Jul 23, 2022, at 11:28 PM, Michael Jamentz <meja...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Mark et al.

I recommend the glypwiki site. You can see many alternative characters for 無, including the ones you mention. 

I don't know why anyone would choose other characters, except for obvious ease in producing the simpler versions.

https://glyphwiki.org/wiki/u7121

Best,

m jamentz

On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 12:15 PM Mark Schumacher <m...@onmarkproductions.com> wrote:

Hi PMJS Members

As always, I am confused.

When comparing magic mirrors 魔鏡 from the Edo period,

I run across three variations in Amida's Nenbutsu 念佛.

旡 ・ 无 ・ 無 (how about 𣠮?). Do they all mean the same thing? Why the difference?

See examples below.

<Fsp1L5iFkEV6K03x.png><auZz3oP8QObXLdEr.png><Dnu1vcxY0TF9tiga.png>

--

MARK SCHUMACHER Tel/Fax: 0467-67-5005 (in Japan) and 81-467-67-5005 (outside Japan) https://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/buddhism.shtml

--
PMJS is a forum dedicated to the study of premodern Japan.
To post to the list, email pm...@googlegroups.com
For the PMJS Terms of Use and more resources, please visit www.pmjs.org.
Contact the moderation team at mod...@pmjs.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PMJS: Listserv" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pmjs+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/c03ffb67-1381-1a4e-bf2d-be077df1356b%40onmarkproductions.com.

--
PMJS is a forum dedicated to the study of premodern Japan.
To post to the list, email pm...@googlegroups.com
For the PMJS Terms of Use and more resources, please visit www.pmjs.org.
Contact the moderation team at mod...@pmjs.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PMJS: Listserv" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pmjs+uns...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/CAEu_BgdH%2BmDacSVPZom94Z9HDYfVdAFEM9FUxzoduodjEZpRmg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Kazuhiro Okada]

Hi Mark,

I’d love to add one thing that 旡 is not same as 无, one of the variants of 無, but easily confusable with that.
𣠮 is a reconstructed variant of 無 from the Shuowen Jiezi Seal Script graph.

See the database entries below for other examples:
https://www.chise.org/est/view/character/%E6%97%A0
https://search.hng-data.org/search/%E7%84%A1

Best regards,


--
Kazuhiro Okada
oo....@gmail.com



> 2022/07/24 14:15、Lisa Kochinski <lis...@gmail.com>のメール:

>
> Hello again Mark,
>
> To continue the discussion, there are many different ways of rendering the sounds of the two characters in namu. In the 南無 entry in the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism, Charles Muller lists: 南牟; 南謨; 南忙; 那謨, 那模, 那麻, 納莫, 納慕; 娜母; 曩莫, 曩謨, 捺麻, 捺謨, etc.
>
> Best regards,
> Lisa Kochinski
> PhD Candidate (ABD)
> University of Southern California
>
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2022 at 22:01 Lisa Kochinski <lis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> The reading for 无 is mu, so 南无 reads namu. 旡 Is an alternate form of 无, so 南旡 also reads namu.
>
> Hope you are doing well in Kamakura!
>
> Best regards,
> Lisa
>
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2022 at 20:15 Mark Schumacher <m...@onmarkproductions.com> wrote:
> Hi PMJS Members
>
> As always, I am confused.
>
> When comparing magic mirrors 魔鏡 from the Edo period,
>
> I run across three variations in Amida's Nenbutsu 念佛.
>
> 旡 ・ 无 ・ 無 (how about 𣠮?). Do they all mean the same thing? Why the difference?
>
> See examples below.
>
>
>

> <Fsp1L5iFkEV6K03x.png><auZz3oP8QObXLdEr.png><Dnu1vcxY0TF9tiga.png>

>
> --
> MARK SCHUMACHER
> Tel/Fax: 0467-67-5005 (in Japan) and 81-467-67-5005 (outside Japan)
> https://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/buddhism.shtml
>
>

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/CAKi0wioC8OEifT48Q0pgj-8DERqqUQdqwGtZEcLetw83QQC-gg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Mark Schumacher]

Hello Again PMJS

Thanks for everyone's responses. This is really fun. What a mess.
Just learned that “Namo Amida Butsu" 南无阿弥陀佛 (Hail Amida Buddha) is a particular spelling / pronunciation unique to the Nishi Honganji 西本願寺派 sect of New Pure Land Buddhism 浄土真宗.

なむあみだぶつ
南無阿弥陀佛
南無阿彌陀佛
南旡阿弥陀佛
南无阿弥陀佛
南元阿弥陀佛
   
Trad. | Simple

彌 → 弥
無 → 旡
無 → 无
無 → 元
無 → 𣠮

So much to learn, so little time.

As the Germans say: "Too soon old, too late smart."

rock on, mark in kamakura

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/CAKi0wioC8OEifT48Q0pgj-8DERqqUQdqwGtZEcLetw83QQC-gg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Raji Steineck]

Hi Mark and all,

as an addition to Lisa Kochinski's message: these various transliterations of "namu" also come with various pronunciations

– besides "namu" I have come across "namo", "nōmaku" and "nōbō", for example, although not in the context of the 六字名号.

Sometimes different schools have different pronunciations of the same formula, which appears to me as an expedient way to emphasize lineage in a culture of 'secret' transmissions.

Yours,

Raji

Prof. Dr. Raji C. Steineck

Japanologie, Asien-Orient-Institut

Universität Zürich

Zürichbergstrasse 4

8032 Zürich

Schweiz/Suisse/Svizzera

---

Von: pm...@googlegroups.com <pm...@googlegroups.com> im Auftrag von Lisa Kochinski <lis...@gmail.com>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 24. Juli 2022 07:15
An: pm...@googlegroups.com <pm...@googlegroups.com>
Betreff: Re: [PMJS] Kanji Question from Kamakura

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/CAKi0wioC8OEifT48Q0pgj-8DERqqUQdqwGtZEcLetw83QQC-gg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Pinnington, Noel J - (noelp)]

Interesting information, thanks!

I notice that this app was constructed using versions of Genji Monogatari. I have in the past found GM among the easiest works to read, as it uses a lot of kana, and very few kanji. I wonder how effective the app is with Edo period materials, which I generally find much harder to read.

Noel Pinnington

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 23, 2022, at 22:45, Cynthea Bogel <cjb...@gmail.com> wrote:



External Email

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/80A4111E-ADA0-4865-BB8B-2D1B5BF591CD%40gmail.com.

[Mark Blum]

Dear Mark and others,

These variant forms of 無 or 无 are about design, not meaning, since the characters represent the sound of the Sanskrit word namo from namas, which in this case expresses a multitude of meanings, at times a personal commitment or an expression of faith, at times a call for help, at times a sort of "hail to the chief". Since there is no meaning to the 南 or the 無, artists felt they could redesign these things in different ways and there are many unusual forms the characters take. The namo pronunciation today is largely confined to the Hongwanji-ha school of Jōdoshinshū (Nishi Honganji), as they insist on following a holograph of Shinran in which the pronunciation na mo is shown as a kind of rubi. It is quite possible that this pronunciation was transmitted from China as it fits the expected Sanskrit form after saṃdhi rules apply where namo results from namas + a combination, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it pronounced that way in Shingon phrases, but identifying pronunciations at different periods can be tricky b/c as Raji pointed out, as a lineage would often distinguish itself that way. Since this phrase ritually functions like a mantra, sound matters to some traditions but not all. The Jōdoshū and Higashi Honganji Shinshū people dropped namo for namu long ago, similar to the way in which modern Mandarin doesn't worry about the pronunciation in the Six Dynasties. It appears that once things get standardized in the Edo period, nearly everyone pronounces this as namu, I assume because of the weight of the mu pronunciation of 無・无 nearly everywhere else.

Mark Blum 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/ZRAP278MB0739EEC0C4F364977E23E6D9C7929%40ZRAP278MB0739.CHEP278.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.

[Ross Bender]

Lest we forget:

NAMU HACHIMAN DAIBOSATSU

Ross Bender