Re: [PMJS] Digest for pmjs@googlegroups.com - 4 updates in 2 topics
21 views
Skip to first unread message
Lina Nie
Nov 18, 2025, 9:42:55 AMNov 18
to pm...@googlegroups.com
Dear Dan,
The original text quoted by Liu Zongyuan is from a text he wrote titled "賀誅淄青逆賊李師道狀", Li Shidao was a Koryo originated general who rebelled against Tang court and was killed by his followers in the 810s.
So for the sentence 伏以天啟聖期，神資良弼，必有懲討，以致升平。
I translate it as “By the grace of Heaven, and with divine assistance and wise minister, there must be punishment and attack, so as peace can be achieved":
For classical Chinese translation, you might find this website 漢典 helpful. It is one of the most authoritative dictionaries for classical Chinese. https://www.zdic.net/
Also pleco is another good dictionary of chinese-english translation (This one you need to install on the phone). 伏 for example on Pleco was translated as lean over, so I translate as by grace of, or thanks to, owing to..
I hope it helps!
Sincerely,
Lina
Lina Nie, Assistant Professor History Department Texas A&M University
Board Member of Song Yuan and Conquest Dynasties Studies
On Tue, Nov 18, 2025 at 7:36 AM <pm...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
This Message Is From an External SenderThis message came from outside your organization.
- A Little Chinese Question - 2 Updates
- On the translation of "skandha" as "yin" 陰 - 2 Updates
Dan Sherer <danshe...@gmail.com>: Nov 16 10:37AM +0200
Hello all,
I have a question regarding a line of Tang prose by Liǔ Zōngyuán (柳宗元)(773-819). I have a Japanese petition from 1599 that almost directly quotes this line:
伏以天啓聖期神資良弼
The origin appears to be this petition.
I'm trying to get a passable translation of the line but I'm a little wary of my own attempt. My current best bet is:
I bow down and look, and heaven has opened a sagacious age, and the gods aid wise ministers.
(I will note that my Japanese writter has tweaked the quote slightly, so it reads:
伏見天啓聖期神資良弼
Has anyone got any guidance they can give me on this?
Thanks,
Dan
萬井 良大 <ihso...@gmail.com>: Nov 18 09:37PM +0900
Dear Dan,
‘伏以天啓聖期神資良弼必有懲討’ is supposed to be a whole sentence. ‘伏以’ is a set phrase meaning ‘Humbly, I state that.’ As for my rendering of the whole, I would translate it as: Humbly, I state that (伏以), with the sacred opportunity (聖期) prepared by Heaven (天啓) and the wise ministers (良弼) endowed with divine gifts (神資), they (the rebels; 件賊) shall be struck down (必有懲討).
As for the letter addressed to Tokugawa Ieyasu from the Hokke sect community, dated Keichō 4 (1600), 11th month, 13th day, being labeled ‘Fushimi,’ this likely plays on the fact that at the time Ieyasu was entrusted with Fushimi Castle. Namely, it also implys Ieyasu himself.
I hope it would be helpful.
Yoshihiro Man'i
On 2025/11/16 17:37, Dan Sherer wrote:
Leonardo Wolfe <leonardo...@gmail.com>: Nov 17 01:49AM -0800
Dear Prof. Skovoronskikh,
I would be interested in seeing the chapter that Christopher Larcombe
refers to, however, my theoretical point has perhaps been made clearer by
Yoshihiro Man’i.
To expand upon it a little further, Eric M. Greene, across two separate
footnotes within *Doctrinal Dispute in the Earliest Phase of Chinese
Buddhism: Anti-Mahāyāna Polemics in the Scripture on the Fifty
Contemplations* (2000), remarks,
n. 50: The earliest Chinese Buddhist translations use the word *yin* 陰,
“dark," to translate *skandha*, a rendering that has long been a source of
puzzlement given its seeming lack of connection to the literal meaning of
*skandha* as "heap" or "aggregate" (Tang [1938] 2001: 1.167; Link 1976: 69,
n. 33; Zurcher 1991: 292). Presented as the "dark" components of a human
being, this translation makes of the *skandhas* a set of impurities that
must be cast off. As noted by Peng Ziqiang (2000: 43-52), this does in fact
fit with how An Shigao's translations (where the word is first used) often
present them. It also matches well with the sense here in the *Fifty
Contemplations*, where these "dark elements" are argued to be defilements
that impede liberation.
n. 87: In addition to the more usual *yin* 陰 (see above n. 50), the *Yin
chi ru Jing* also translates *skandha* as *zhong* 種 and sometimes (as here)
combines the two translations as *yin zhong* 陰種. Though *zhong* probably
was originally intended to mean "class" or "category" (Ui 1971: 186), a
reasonable translation of *skandha*, the commentary appears to read it to
mean "seed."
Link: https://poj.peeters-leuven.be/content.php?url=article&id=3269005
Kind regards,
Leonardo Wolfe
On Monday, 17 November 2025 at 02:22:04 UTC Mikhail Skovoronskikh wrote:
Dear all,
Thank you very much for the valuable suggestions. I have especially high
hopes for the relevant chapter in Prof. Funayama's book. I'll place an ILL
order for it right away.
Best regards,
Mikhail Skovoronskikh
On Sun, Nov 16, 2025 at 2:24 AM Christopher Larcombe <cdlar...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Professor Skovoronskikh,
An apposite chapter in a recent monograph by Professor Funayama Tōru 船山徹
(Kyoto University) may throw some clarifying light on the specific case
you're enquiring about:
"Butten ga tsukuridashita jukugo". In chapt. 3 of *Bukkyō kango gogi
kaishaku *(Kyoto: Rinsen Shoten, 2022), pp. 152 - 160.
http://www.rinsen.com/linkbooks/ISBN978-4-653-04516-8.htm
It includes a concise and dense discussion of the derivations of both J.
*go-on* [五陰] and J. *go-un* [五蘊].
SUNY doesn't appear to have it. However, Princeton does (I presume it's
available via inter-library loan):
https://catalog.princeton.edu/catalog/99125543729606421
I can get a hold of a scan of the relevant chapter if you cannot obtain the
book yourself.
Regards,
Christopher Larcombe
-------- Original message --------
From: Mikhail Skovoronskikh <ms3...@georgetown.edu>
Date: 16/11/25 11:26 (GMT+09:30)
To: pm...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [PMJS] On the translation of "skandha" as "yin" 陰
Dear colleagues,
While my question concerns comparative Buddhology more than premodern
Japanese studies, I wonder if anyone on the list familiar with this subject
can give me a quick hint regarding the following curious translation choice.
It is a well-known fact that early Chinese translations of Buddhist texts
favor the term "yin" 陰 when rendering the Sanskrit/prakrit "skandha," or
"aggregate." In later translations, the same word is almost ubiquitously
translated as "yun" 蘊, best illustrated by the famous 五蘊皆空 line from the *Heart
Sutra*.
Now, I am really curious about why early translators chose "yin," literally
"obscuration," to convey the meaning of "skandha," literally "heap,
collection." Trying to find out the answer, I turned to some scholarship by
Nattier and Mair, but couldn't locate a specific explanation. Nattier does
discuss how unconventional (and erroneous) translations could arise from
prakrit idiosyncrasies, but for such a fundamental term to be
(mis?)-translated as "obscuration" there must have been some compelling
reasons.
I wonder if any of you who work with Buddhist texts could chime in on this
specific case. I will add, briefly, that doctrinally the rendering
"obscuration" may make some sense in some contexts (the five aggregates
obscuring or clouding the nirvāṇa-element, etc.), but it could also be
rather confusing in light of the presence of some very compelling
alternatives (*kleṣa*, *āvaraṇa*, *ās(ś)rava*, etc.). In any event, I would
very much appreciate your help.
Best regards,
Mikhail Skovoronskikh
--
PMJS is a forum dedicated to the study of premodern Japan.
To post to the list, email pm...@googlegroups.com
For the PMJS Terms of Use and more resources, please visit www.pmjs.org.
Contact the moderation team at mod...@pmjs.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"PMJS: Listserv" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to pmjs+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/CAK9hvFtsyb72Chkxj%2BxDbDP%3DxpS4wmQ9LFUe7nSP1DoNLDdoYg%40mail.gmail.com
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/CAK9hvFtsyb72Chkxj%2BxDbDP%3DxpS4wmQ9LFUe7nSP1DoNLDdoYg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
.
--
PMJS is a forum dedicated to the study of premodern Japan.
To post to the list, email pm...@googlegroups.com
For the PMJS Terms of Use and more resources, please visit www.pmjs.org.
Contact the moderation team at mod...@pmjs.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"PMJS: Listserv" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to pmjs+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/691977a2.170a0220.ff030.8461%40mx.google.com
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/691977a2.170a0220.ff030.8461%40mx.google.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
.
Mikhail Skovoronskikh <ms3...@georgetown.edu>: Nov 17 10:43PM -0500
Dear Leonardo and everyone,
These are very informative footnotes, and they do strengthen the
"obscuration" hypothesis. I will make sure to share relevant excerpts from
Professor Funayama's chapter here once I've got a hold of it. Let's see
whether his findings shed more light on the matter.
In the meantime, I can't help but share a brief quote from the *Mohe
zhiguan *(Chapter 5), which strongly suggests that the "obscuration"
interpretation was accepted by Zhi Yi himself:
陰者，陰蓋善法，此就因得名。又陰是積聚，生死重沓，此就果得名。
"Aggregates (*yin*) obscure wholesome dharmas [that lead to enlightenment];
this is a designation applied according to cause. Aggregates also refer to
accumulation. Since birth and death are repeatedly [experienced by beings],
this is a designation applied according to effect/fruit."
Please forgive my clunky rendering--I have no access to Prof. Swanson's
monumental translation, and am not familiar with Zhi Yi's idiom. But it
appears to be the case that he understands *yin *as meaning,
etymologically, both "obscuration" and "accumulation," and I think the
latter supports Dr. Man'i's conjecture. To paraphrase Zhi Yi's position in
simpler terms, aggregates are called *yin *(obscurations) because their
presence "obscures" wholesome dharmas and practices that lead to liberation
(cause argument); they are also *yin *(accumulations), visible
manifestations of our repeated wandering in saṃsāra (effect/fruit argument).
Best regards,
Mikhail Skovoronskikh
On Mon, Nov 17, 2025 at 8:37 PM Leonardo Wolfe <leonardo...@gmail.com>
wrote:
You received this digest because you're subscribed to updates for this group. You can change your settings on the group membership page.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it send an email to pmjs+uns...@googlegroups.com.
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages