A Little Chinese Question
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Dan Sherer
Nov 17, 2025, 8:37:14 PM (12 days ago) Nov 17
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Hello all,
I have a question regarding a line of Tang prose by Liǔ Zōngyuán (柳宗元)(773-819). I have a Japanese petition from 1599 that almost directly quotes this line:
伏以天啓聖期神資良弼The origin appears to be this petition.
I'm trying to get a passable translation of the line but I'm a little wary of my own attempt. My current best bet is:
I bow down and look, and heaven has opened a sagacious age, and the gods aid wise ministers.(I will note that my Japanese writter has tweaked the quote slightly, so it reads:
伏見天啓聖期神資良弼Has anyone got any guidance they can give me on this?
Thanks,
Dan
萬井 良大
Nov 18, 2025, 8:17:01 AM (11 days ago) Nov 18
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Dear Dan,
‘伏以天啓聖期神資良弼必有懲討’ is supposed to be a whole sentence. ‘伏以’ is a set phrase meaning ‘Humbly, I state that.’ As for my rendering of the whole, I would translate it as: Humbly, I state that (伏以), with the sacred opportunity (聖期) prepared by Heaven (天啓) and the wise ministers (良弼) endowed with divine gifts (神資), they (the rebels; 件賊) shall be struck down (必有懲討).
As for the letter addressed to Tokugawa Ieyasu from the Hokke sect community, dated Keichō 4 (1600), 11th month, 13th day, being labeled ‘Fushimi,’ this likely plays on the fact that at the time Ieyasu was entrusted with Fushimi Castle. Namely, it also implys Ieyasu himself.
I hope it would be helpful.
Yoshihiro Man'i
On 2025/11/16 17:37, Dan Sherer wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I have a question regarding a line of Tang prose by Liǔ Zōngyuán (柳宗元)(773-819). I have a Japanese petition from 1599 that almost directly quotes this line:
>
>> 伏以天啓聖期神資良弼
> The origin appears to be this petition. <https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=70963#>
> PMJS is a forum dedicated to the study of premodern Japan.
> To post to the list, email pm...@googlegroups.com
> For the PMJS Terms of Use and more resources, please visit www.pmjs.org.
> Contact the moderation team at mod...@pmjs.org
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‘伏以天啓聖期神資良弼必有懲討’ is supposed to be a whole sentence. ‘伏以’ is a set phrase meaning ‘Humbly, I state that.’ As for my rendering of the whole, I would translate it as: Humbly, I state that (伏以), with the sacred opportunity (聖期) prepared by Heaven (天啓) and the wise ministers (良弼) endowed with divine gifts (神資), they (the rebels; 件賊) shall be struck down (必有懲討).
As for the letter addressed to Tokugawa Ieyasu from the Hokke sect community, dated Keichō 4 (1600), 11th month, 13th day, being labeled ‘Fushimi,’ this likely plays on the fact that at the time Ieyasu was entrusted with Fushimi Castle. Namely, it also implys Ieyasu himself.
I hope it would be helpful.
Yoshihiro Man'i
On 2025/11/16 17:37, Dan Sherer wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I have a question regarding a line of Tang prose by Liǔ Zōngyuán (柳宗元)(773-819). I have a Japanese petition from 1599 that almost directly quotes this line:
>
>> 伏以天啓聖期神資良弼
>
> I'm trying to get a passable translation of the line but I'm a little wary of my own attempt. My current best bet is:
>
>> I bow down and look, and heaven has opened a sagacious age, and the gods aid wise ministers.
> (I will note that my Japanese writter has tweaked the quote slightly, so it reads:
>
>> 伏見天啓聖期神資良弼
> Has anyone got any guidance they can give me on this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan
>
> --
> I'm trying to get a passable translation of the line but I'm a little wary of my own attempt. My current best bet is:
>
>> I bow down and look, and heaven has opened a sagacious age, and the gods aid wise ministers.
> (I will note that my Japanese writter has tweaked the quote slightly, so it reads:
>
>> 伏見天啓聖期神資良弼
> Has anyone got any guidance they can give me on this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan
>
> PMJS is a forum dedicated to the study of premodern Japan.
> To post to the list, email pm...@googlegroups.com
> For the PMJS Terms of Use and more resources, please visit www.pmjs.org.
> Contact the moderation team at mod...@pmjs.org
> ---
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Leonardo Wolfe
Nov 18, 2025, 8:23:55 PM (11 days ago) Nov 18
to PMJS: Listserv
To chip in with my own rendering,
“I humbly submit that Heaven has mandated an era of sagacious rule, and that divine providence has bestowed virtuously capable ministers as worthy aides.”
Feel free to provide any feedback or corrections.
Kind regards,
Leonardo Wolfe
“I humbly submit that Heaven has mandated an era of sagacious rule, and that divine providence has bestowed virtuously capable ministers as worthy aides.”
Feel free to provide any feedback or corrections.
Kind regards,
Leonardo Wolfe
Dan Sherer
Nov 19, 2025, 10:00:38 AM (10 days ago) Nov 19
to pm...@googlegroups.com
Thank you to everyone who responded both on and off list.
The document is actually a pretty reasonable one to understand, but my abilities with Tang Chinese are somewhat lacking.
Just to check with everyone who has responded, as I understand it, the change of 以 to 見 has no substantive effect on how you would translate it (other than a nod-and-wink to Ieyasu). Would you say that this is correct?
Also, to Profs. Man'i and Wolfe: you seem to disagree on what 聖期 means. I hade assumed that it was equivalent to 聖世, i.e. a particularly good emperor's reign, and that this seems to be Prof. Wolfe's reading. Looking at Morohashi and the source Prof. Nie suggested, there seems to be a broader idea of an "age of sages" as well. Could I ask for your thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Dan
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Leonardo Wolfe
Nov 19, 2025, 4:13:08 PM (10 days ago) Nov 19
to PMJS: Listserv
Dear Dr. Sherer,
Sadly, it will be a few more years until I'm bestowed with the title of Prof., as I'm currently between MA programmes at the moment, but to try to answer your questions...
In my "rendering", and I somewhat intentionally avoided the term "translation", I've tried to add context, so it's not a word-for-word translation. Having said that, I still feel that there are nuances to the Chinese concepts of 天 and 神 which aren't fully conveyed in English; at least in my opinion.
In terms of my rendering, the online version of the Merriam-Webster dictionary states,
You might expect the root of sagacious to be sage, which, as an adjective, means "wise" or, as a noun, "a wise person." Despite similarities of spelling, sound, and sense, the two words are not closely related. Sagacious comes from sagire, a Latin verb meaning "to perceive keenly." Etymologists believe that sage comes from a different Latin verb, sapere, which means "to taste," "to have good taste," or "to be wise."
Despite this, however, it seemed to be the most grammatically appropriate term, with the term 聖人 also sharing the same logogram of 聖 with 聖世. Furthermore, the "Mandate of Heaven" (天命) seems to be a more contextually appropriate reference, and so I chose to refer to that instead of a more literal translation of 天启圣期.
As for the difference between 伏以 and 伏見, my understanding is that the former relates to reasoning and that the latter relates to observation, but that it's a small nuance and still, ultimately, involves verbal prostration.
As always, any feedback and corrections are welcome.
Kind regards,
Leonardo Wolfe
Sadly, it will be a few more years until I'm bestowed with the title of Prof., as I'm currently between MA programmes at the moment, but to try to answer your questions...
In my "rendering", and I somewhat intentionally avoided the term "translation", I've tried to add context, so it's not a word-for-word translation. Having said that, I still feel that there are nuances to the Chinese concepts of 天 and 神 which aren't fully conveyed in English; at least in my opinion.
In terms of my rendering, the online version of the Merriam-Webster dictionary states,
You might expect the root of sagacious to be sage, which, as an adjective, means "wise" or, as a noun, "a wise person." Despite similarities of spelling, sound, and sense, the two words are not closely related. Sagacious comes from sagire, a Latin verb meaning "to perceive keenly." Etymologists believe that sage comes from a different Latin verb, sapere, which means "to taste," "to have good taste," or "to be wise."
Despite this, however, it seemed to be the most grammatically appropriate term, with the term 聖人 also sharing the same logogram of 聖 with 聖世. Furthermore, the "Mandate of Heaven" (天命) seems to be a more contextually appropriate reference, and so I chose to refer to that instead of a more literal translation of 天启圣期.
As for the difference between 伏以 and 伏見, my understanding is that the former relates to reasoning and that the latter relates to observation, but that it's a small nuance and still, ultimately, involves verbal prostration.
As always, any feedback and corrections are welcome.
Kind regards,
Leonardo Wolfe
Anne Walthall
Nov 20, 2025, 10:41:10 AM (9 days ago) Nov 20
to pm...@googlegroups.com
This is what Michael Fuller, a specialist in classical Chinese, says about the sentence:
The line is from the memorial 賀誅淄青逆賊李師道狀 (”Memorial of Congratulations on the Chastisement of the Rebellious Thief Li Shidao of Ziqing”) and the line is
伏以天啟聖期，神資良弼，必有懲討，以致升平。
“I bow down and submit that when Heaven begins a sage era and the numinous provides the excellent minister, there must be a punitive military campaign to bring ascendent peace.”
The archaic (and therefore elegant, formal) phrase 良弼 is from the 尚書.
Hope this helps!
Anne Walthall
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Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2025 12:31 PM
To: PMJS: Listserv <pm...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [PMJS] A Little Chinese Question
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2025 12:31 PM
To: PMJS: Listserv <pm...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [PMJS] A Little Chinese Question
To view this discussion visit
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萬井 良大
Nov 20, 2025, 10:41:19 AM (9 days ago) Nov 20
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Dear Dan,
I think that changing “伏以” to “伏見” does not significantly alter the meaning.
Regarding “聖期,” I translated it as “the sacred opportunity,” but I had in mind the sense of “the sacred timing” or “the sacred occasion.”
In this context it should be understood as a shorter span than 聖世. One could interpret it as 聖世 if the rebellion had continued since before Emperor 憲宗’s accession, but considering that the rebellion actually took place during his reign, I don’t think it can be interpreted as 聖世.
By the way, I am not a professor; please just call me Yoshi.
I hope my thoughts are helpful.
Best regards,
Yoshi
On 2025/11/20 5:31, Leonardo Wolfe wrote:
> Dear Dr. Sherer,
>
> Sadly, it will be a few more years until I'm bestowed with the title of Prof., as I'm currently between MA programmes at the moment, but to try to answer your questions...
>
> In my "rendering", and I somewhat intentionally avoided the term "translation", I've tried to add context, so it's not a word-for-word translation. Having said that, I still feel that there are nuances to the Chinese concepts of 天 and 神 which aren't fully conveyed in English; at least in my opinion.
>
> In terms of my rendering, the online version of the Merriam-Webster dictionary states,
>
> You might expect the root of /sagacious/ to be sage, which, as an adjective, means "wise" or, as a noun, "a wise person." Despite similarities of spelling, sound, and sense, the two words are not closely related. /Sagacious/ comes from /sagire/, a Latin verb meaning "to perceive keenly." Etymologists believe that /sage/ comes from a different Latin verb, /sapere/, which means "to taste," "to have good taste," or "to be wise."
I think that changing “伏以” to “伏見” does not significantly alter the meaning.
Regarding “聖期,” I translated it as “the sacred opportunity,” but I had in mind the sense of “the sacred timing” or “the sacred occasion.”
In this context it should be understood as a shorter span than 聖世. One could interpret it as 聖世 if the rebellion had continued since before Emperor 憲宗’s accession, but considering that the rebellion actually took place during his reign, I don’t think it can be interpreted as 聖世.
By the way, I am not a professor; please just call me Yoshi.
I hope my thoughts are helpful.
Best regards,
Yoshi
On 2025/11/20 5:31, Leonardo Wolfe wrote:
> Dear Dr. Sherer,
>
> Sadly, it will be a few more years until I'm bestowed with the title of Prof., as I'm currently between MA programmes at the moment, but to try to answer your questions...
>
> In my "rendering", and I somewhat intentionally avoided the term "translation", I've tried to add context, so it's not a word-for-word translation. Having said that, I still feel that there are nuances to the Chinese concepts of 天 and 神 which aren't fully conveyed in English; at least in my opinion.
>
> In terms of my rendering, the online version of the Merriam-Webster dictionary states,
>
>
> Despite this, however, it seemed to be the most grammatically appropriate term, with the term 聖人 also sharing the same logogram of 聖 with 聖世. Furthermore, the "Mandate of Heaven" (天命) seems to be a more contextually appropriate reference, and so I chose to refer to that instead of a more literal translation of 天启圣期.
>
> As for the difference between 伏以 and 伏見, my understanding is that the former relates to reasoning and that the latter relates to observation, but that it's a small nuance and still, ultimately, involves verbal prostration.
>
> As always, any feedback and corrections are welcome.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Leonardo Wolfe
> On Wednesday, 19 November 2025 at 15:00:38 UTC Dan Sherer wrote:
>
> __
> Despite this, however, it seemed to be the most grammatically appropriate term, with the term 聖人 also sharing the same logogram of 聖 with 聖世. Furthermore, the "Mandate of Heaven" (天命) seems to be a more contextually appropriate reference, and so I chose to refer to that instead of a more literal translation of 天启圣期.
>
> As for the difference between 伏以 and 伏見, my understanding is that the former relates to reasoning and that the latter relates to observation, but that it's a small nuance and still, ultimately, involves verbal prostration.
>
> As always, any feedback and corrections are welcome.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Leonardo Wolfe
> On Wednesday, 19 November 2025 at 15:00:38 UTC Dan Sherer wrote:
>
>
> Thank you to everyone who responded both on and off list.
>
> The document is actually a pretty reasonable one to understand, but my abilities with Tang Chinese are somewhat lacking.
>
> Just to check with everyone who has responded, as I understand it, the change of 以 to 見 has no substantive effect on how you would translate it (other than a nod-and-wink to Ieyasu). Would you say that this is correct?
>
> Also, to Profs. Man'i and Wolfe: you seem to disagree on what 聖期 means. I hade assumed that it was equivalent to 聖世, i.e. a particularly good emperor's reign, and that this seems to be Prof. Wolfe's reading. Looking at Morohashi and the source Prof. Nie suggested, there seems to be a broader idea of an "age of sages" as well. Could I ask for your thoughts on this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan
>
> On 11/19/2025 3:13 AM, Leonardo Wolfe wrote:
>> To chip in with my own rendering,
>>
>> “I humbly submit that Heaven has mandated an era of sagacious rule, and that divine providence has bestowed virtuously capable ministers as worthy aides.”
>>
>> Feel free to provide any feedback or corrections.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Leonardo Wolfe
>> On Tuesday, 18 November 2025 at 13:17:01 UTC 萬井 良大 wrote:
>>
>> Dear Dan,
>>
>> ‘伏以天啓聖期神資良弼必有懲討’ is supposed to be a whole sentence. ‘伏以’ is a set phrase meaning ‘Humbly, I state that.’ As for my rendering of the whole, I would translate it as: Humbly, I state that (伏以), with the sacred opportunity (聖期) prepared by Heaven (天啓) and the wise ministers (良弼) endowed with divine gifts (神資), they (the rebels; 件賊) shall be struck down (必有懲討).
>>
>> As for the letter addressed to Tokugawa Ieyasu from the Hokke sect community, dated Keichō 4 (1600), 11th month, 13th day, being labeled ‘Fushimi,’ this likely plays on the fact that at the time Ieyasu was entrusted with Fushimi Castle. Namely, it also implys Ieyasu himself.
>>
>> I hope it would be helpful.
>>
>> Yoshihiro Man'i
>>
>>
>> On 2025/11/16 17:37, Dan Sherer wrote:
>> > Hello all,
>> >
>> > I have a question regarding a line of Tang prose by Liǔ Zōngyuán (柳宗元)(773-819). I have a Japanese petition from 1599 that almost directly quotes this line:
>> >
>> >> 伏以天啓聖期神資良弼
>> > The origin appears to be this petition. <https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=70963# <https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=70963#>>
> Thank you to everyone who responded both on and off list.
>
> The document is actually a pretty reasonable one to understand, but my abilities with Tang Chinese are somewhat lacking.
>
> Just to check with everyone who has responded, as I understand it, the change of 以 to 見 has no substantive effect on how you would translate it (other than a nod-and-wink to Ieyasu). Would you say that this is correct?
>
> Also, to Profs. Man'i and Wolfe: you seem to disagree on what 聖期 means. I hade assumed that it was equivalent to 聖世, i.e. a particularly good emperor's reign, and that this seems to be Prof. Wolfe's reading. Looking at Morohashi and the source Prof. Nie suggested, there seems to be a broader idea of an "age of sages" as well. Could I ask for your thoughts on this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan
>
> On 11/19/2025 3:13 AM, Leonardo Wolfe wrote:
>> To chip in with my own rendering,
>>
>> “I humbly submit that Heaven has mandated an era of sagacious rule, and that divine providence has bestowed virtuously capable ministers as worthy aides.”
>>
>> Feel free to provide any feedback or corrections.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Leonardo Wolfe
>> On Tuesday, 18 November 2025 at 13:17:01 UTC 萬井 良大 wrote:
>>
>> Dear Dan,
>>
>> ‘伏以天啓聖期神資良弼必有懲討’ is supposed to be a whole sentence. ‘伏以’ is a set phrase meaning ‘Humbly, I state that.’ As for my rendering of the whole, I would translate it as: Humbly, I state that (伏以), with the sacred opportunity (聖期) prepared by Heaven (天啓) and the wise ministers (良弼) endowed with divine gifts (神資), they (the rebels; 件賊) shall be struck down (必有懲討).
>>
>> As for the letter addressed to Tokugawa Ieyasu from the Hokke sect community, dated Keichō 4 (1600), 11th month, 13th day, being labeled ‘Fushimi,’ this likely plays on the fact that at the time Ieyasu was entrusted with Fushimi Castle. Namely, it also implys Ieyasu himself.
>>
>> I hope it would be helpful.
>>
>> Yoshihiro Man'i
>>
>>
>> On 2025/11/16 17:37, Dan Sherer wrote:
>> > Hello all,
>> >
>> > I have a question regarding a line of Tang prose by Liǔ Zōngyuán (柳宗元)(773-819). I have a Japanese petition from 1599 that almost directly quotes this line:
>> >
>> >> 伏以天啓聖期神資良弼
>> >
>> > I'm trying to get a passable translation of the line but I'm a little wary of my own attempt. My current best bet is:
>> >
>> >> I bow down and look, and heaven has opened a sagacious age, and the gods aid wise ministers.
>> > (I will note that my Japanese writter has tweaked the quote slightly, so it reads:
>> >
>> >> 伏見天啓聖期神資良弼
>> > Has anyone got any guidance they can give me on this?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Dan
>> >
>> > --
>> > PMJS is a forum dedicated to the study of premodern Japan.
>> > To post to the list, email pm...@googlegroups.com
>> > For the PMJS Terms of Use and more resources, please visit www.pmjs.org <http://www.pmjs.org>.
>> > I'm trying to get a passable translation of the line but I'm a little wary of my own attempt. My current best bet is:
>> >
>> >> I bow down and look, and heaven has opened a sagacious age, and the gods aid wise ministers.
>> > (I will note that my Japanese writter has tweaked the quote slightly, so it reads:
>> >
>> >> 伏見天啓聖期神資良弼
>> > Has anyone got any guidance they can give me on this?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Dan
>> >
>> > --
>> > PMJS is a forum dedicated to the study of premodern Japan.
>> > To post to the list, email pm...@googlegroups.com
>> > Contact the moderation team at mod...@pmjs.org
>> > ---
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PMJS: Listserv" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pmjs+uns...@googlegroups.com <mailto:pmjs+uns...@googlegroups.com>.
>> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/0edf1cc0-5ba2-4209-8d12-74fb2bac5648%40gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/0edf1cc0-5ba2-4209-8d12-74fb2bac5648%40gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/0edf1cc0-5ba2-4209-8d12-74fb2bac5648%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/0edf1cc0-5ba2-4209-8d12-74fb2bac5648%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>> > ---
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>>
>> --
>> PMJS is a forum dedicated to the study of premodern Japan.
>> To post to the list, email pm...@googlegroups.com
>> For the PMJS Terms of Use and more resources, please visit www.pmjs.org <http://www.pmjs.org>.
>> --
>> PMJS is a forum dedicated to the study of premodern Japan.
>> To post to the list, email pm...@googlegroups.com
>> Contact the moderation team at mod...@pmjs.org
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>
> --
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> Contact the moderation team at mod...@pmjs.org
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Leonardo Wolfe
Nov 20, 2025, 10:41:53 AM (9 days ago) Nov 20
to PMJS: Listserv
Dear Dr. Sherer,
Sadly, it will be a few more years until I'm bestowed with the title of Prof., as I'm currently between MA programmes at the moment, but to try to answer your questions...
In my "rendering", and I somewhat intentionally avoided the term "translation", I've tried to add context, so it's not a word-for-word translation. Having said that, I still feel that there are nuances to the Chinese concepts of 天 and 神 which aren't fully conveyed in English; at least in my opinion.
In terms of my rendering, the online version of the Merriam-Webster dictionary states,
You might expect the root of sagacious to be sage, which, as an adjective, means "wise" or, as a noun, "a wise person." Despite similarities of spelling, sound, and sense, the two words are not closely related. Sagacious comes from sagire, a Latin verb meaning "to perceive keenly." Etymologists believe that sage comes from a different Latin verb, sapere, which means "to taste," "to have good taste," or "to be wise."Sadly, it will be a few more years until I'm bestowed with the title of Prof., as I'm currently between MA programmes at the moment, but to try to answer your questions...
In my "rendering", and I somewhat intentionally avoided the term "translation", I've tried to add context, so it's not a word-for-word translation. Having said that, I still feel that there are nuances to the Chinese concepts of 天 and 神 which aren't fully conveyed in English; at least in my opinion.
In terms of my rendering, the online version of the Merriam-Webster dictionary states,
Despite this, however, it seemed to be the most grammatically appropriate term, with the term 聖人 also sharing the same logogram of 聖 with 聖世. Furthermore, the "Mandate of Heaven" (天命) seems to be a more contextually appropriate reference, and so I chose to refer to that instead of a more literal translation of 天启圣期.
As for the difference between 伏以 and 伏見, my understanding is that the former relates to reasoning and that the latter relates to observation, but that it's a small nuance and still, ultimately, involves verbal prostration.
As always, any feedback and corrections are welcome.
Leonardo Wolfe
On Wednesday, 19 November 2025 at 15:00:38 UTC Dan Sherer wrote:
Leonardo Wolfe
Nov 22, 2025, 1:50:35 AM (7 days ago) Nov 22
to PMJS: Listserv
Dear Prof. Walthall,
Thank you for sharing Michael Fuller's translation, however, I must admit that the use of "when" could be construed as being a little confusing.
My understanding is that an explicit reference is being made to the current emperor, especially given the mention of "minister", and so, logically, it should refer to the present, rather than a future time—particularly as stating "when" in the sense of a future time seems somewhat treasonous.
As an aside, the first version of my second reply, which contained a typo, seems to have been accidentally approved, and so I apologise for any confusion caused.
Kind regards,
Leonardo Wolfe
Thank you for sharing Michael Fuller's translation, however, I must admit that the use of "when" could be construed as being a little confusing.
My understanding is that an explicit reference is being made to the current emperor, especially given the mention of "minister", and so, logically, it should refer to the present, rather than a future time—particularly as stating "when" in the sense of a future time seems somewhat treasonous.
As an aside, the first version of my second reply, which contained a typo, seems to have been accidentally approved, and so I apologise for any confusion caused.
Kind regards,
Leonardo Wolfe
Anne Walthall
Nov 24, 2025, 11:07:51 PM (4 days ago) Nov 24
to PM...@googlegroups.com
For those of you intrigued by the ins and outs of Chinese memorial structure.
Anne Walthall
From: Michael A Fuller <mafu...@uci.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2025 9:41 PM
To: Anne Walthall <walt...@uci.edu>
Subject: RE: [PMJS] A Little Chinese Question
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2025 9:41 PM
To: Anne Walthall <walt...@uci.edu>
Subject: RE: [PMJS] A Little Chinese Question
Anne,
My sense of the syntax of the line is Topic-Comment rather than coordinate. That is, Topic:[天啓聖期神資良弼]::Comment:[必有懲討]. This is usually rendered in English as “if…., then…” or “when…,then….” As part of the rhetorical style of writing a memorial, Liu begins with a sententious general proposition and then explain how the assertion applies to the current situation.
However, this is a Chinese reading of the line. It strikes me that it is important to get a sense of how a member of the Japanese elite would have read it at the beginning of the Tokugawa era. It does not seem to have been collected into any Chinese prose anthology imported into Japan, so, no help there. For example, would they have taken 神 as kami?
Michael
From: Anne Walthall <walt...@uci.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2025 8:10 PM
To: Michael A Fuller <mafu...@uci.edu>
Subject: Fw: [PMJS] A Little Chinese Question
What do you think of this response to your translation? Is Wolfe making any sense at all?
Anne
From:
pm...@googlegroups.com <pm...@googlegroups.com>
on behalf of Leonardo Wolfe <leonardo...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2025 12:32 PM
To: PMJS: Listserv <pm...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [PMJS] A Little Chinese Question
Dear Prof. Walthall,
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/2afc39be-a6d4-442c-abb3-9eeaf35afa98n%40googlegroups.com.
Leonardo Wolfe
Nov 26, 2025, 9:09:33 PM (3 days ago) Nov 26
to PMJS: Listserv
Dear Prof. Walthall,
Thank you for sharing Prof. Fuller's response.
As I understand the situation, the second part of the line isn't quoted in the Japanese source. That aside, in terms of the original memorial, which I believe was written in 819 given that is when Li Shidao was allegedly executed, Emperor Xianzong of Tang was the emperor at the time, and he was subsequently given the posthumous titles of 聖神章武孝皇帝 and 昭文章武大聖至神孝皇帝 (see links below).
https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E6%86%B2%E5%AE%97%E8%81%96%E7%A5%9E%E7%AB%A0%E6%AD%A6%E5%AD%9D%E7%9A%87%E5%B8%9D%E8%AB%A1%E8%AD%B0%EF%BC%88%E5%85%83%E5%92%8C%E5%8D%81%E4%BA%94%E5%B9%B4%E4%BA%94%E6%9C%88%EF%BC%89
https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E6%86%B2%E5%AE%97%E5%8A%A0%E8%AB%A1%E6%98%AD%E6%96%87%E7%AB%A0%E6%AD%A6%E5%A4%A7%E8%81%96%E8%87%B3%E7%A5%9E%E5%AD%9D%E7%9A%87%E5%B8%9D%E8%AD%B0
As the rest of the original memorial heaps praise on the emperor, I find it difficult to reconcile this with a future "when", particularly as the first document was written shortly after his death. Having said that, I appreciate Prof. Fuller's point.
Perhaps some additional insight can also be gleaned from the below, which is quoted from the bottom of the first document.
謹按諡法，兵禁殘暴曰「聖」，應變無方曰「神」，洪度大明曰「章」，為人除害曰「武」，慈惠愛親曰「孝」。戮鯨鯢而清四海，不曰聖乎！裁造作而刑一德，不曰神乎！洞明哲而貞百度，不曰章乎！推仁義而服萬物，不曰武乎！戴尊親而諧五典，不曰孝乎！《書》曰：「惟天聰明，惟聖時憲，法也敏也。」謹酌之諡法，質諸六經，謹上尊諡曰。「聖神章武孝皇帝。」廟號「憲宗」。
Kind regards,
Leonardo Wolfe
Thank you for sharing Prof. Fuller's response.
As I understand the situation, the second part of the line isn't quoted in the Japanese source. That aside, in terms of the original memorial, which I believe was written in 819 given that is when Li Shidao was allegedly executed, Emperor Xianzong of Tang was the emperor at the time, and he was subsequently given the posthumous titles of 聖神章武孝皇帝 and 昭文章武大聖至神孝皇帝 (see links below).
https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E6%86%B2%E5%AE%97%E8%81%96%E7%A5%9E%E7%AB%A0%E6%AD%A6%E5%AD%9D%E7%9A%87%E5%B8%9D%E8%AB%A1%E8%AD%B0%EF%BC%88%E5%85%83%E5%92%8C%E5%8D%81%E4%BA%94%E5%B9%B4%E4%BA%94%E6%9C%88%EF%BC%89
https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E6%86%B2%E5%AE%97%E5%8A%A0%E8%AB%A1%E6%98%AD%E6%96%87%E7%AB%A0%E6%AD%A6%E5%A4%A7%E8%81%96%E8%87%B3%E7%A5%9E%E5%AD%9D%E7%9A%87%E5%B8%9D%E8%AD%B0
As the rest of the original memorial heaps praise on the emperor, I find it difficult to reconcile this with a future "when", particularly as the first document was written shortly after his death. Having said that, I appreciate Prof. Fuller's point.
Perhaps some additional insight can also be gleaned from the below, which is quoted from the bottom of the first document.
謹按諡法，兵禁殘暴曰「聖」，應變無方曰「神」，洪度大明曰「章」，為人除害曰「武」，慈惠愛親曰「孝」。戮鯨鯢而清四海，不曰聖乎！裁造作而刑一德，不曰神乎！洞明哲而貞百度，不曰章乎！推仁義而服萬物，不曰武乎！戴尊親而諧五典，不曰孝乎！《書》曰：「惟天聰明，惟聖時憲，法也敏也。」謹酌之諡法，質諸六經，謹上尊諡曰。「聖神章武孝皇帝。」廟號「憲宗」。
Kind regards,
Leonardo Wolfe
Anne Walthall
Nov 27, 2025, 7:53:32 PM (2 days ago) Nov 27
to pm...@googlegroups.com
Dear Mr. Wolfe,
This is really not something that holds my interest. I was only trying to help out the man who first raised the query on the PMJS list serv.
Sincerely,
Anne Walthall
From: pm...@googlegroups.com <pm...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Leonardo Wolfe <leonardo...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2025 3:14 AM
To: PMJS: Listserv <pm...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: [PMJS] A Little Chinese Question
To: PMJS: Listserv <pm...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: [PMJS] A Little Chinese Question
To view this discussion visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/09ccd4aa-05d0-468a-9a11-24fbbbb315edn%40googlegroups.com.
David Bennett
Nov 28, 2025, 1:07:14 PM (21 hours ago) Nov 28
to Pre-modern Japanese Studies
Thank you Mr. Wolfe.
To many of us, this was a very interesting discussion!
Personally, I think it is nice to seeing the community pull together to re-visit some translations and approaches to better understanding these type of questions.
Keep them coming!
David Bennett
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/SA1P221MB1173F46D1080A02C9DF88872D8DFA%40SA1P221MB1173.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.
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