Michael Pye
Professor of the Study of Religions
University of Marburg, Germany (retired)
Visiting Professor, Otani University, Kyoto, Japan
Zitat von Richard Bowring <rb...@cam.ac.uk>:
Dear Matthew,
Two old guidebooks to Kyoto have some interesting theories. The Kamo River flood level one sounds unlikely to me. The other two theories associate them somehow with the imperial family. Unfortunately, the guidebooks do not seem like especially reliable sources.
According to one, “The Palace grounds, containing an area of about 26 acres, are surrounded by a high wall of earth and plaster covered with a tile roof. This wall is marked with five horizontal white stripes whose origin is uncertain. According to some they at first showed the heights reached by the Kamo River in some of its inundations; while others say that the lines represent five straw ropes that in ancient times were stretched about the place where an Emperor was encamped. The same ornament is used on the walls of temples that have been intimately associated with the Imperial Family.”
M. Ichihara, Official Guide-Book to Kyoto and the Allied Prefectures (Nara: Meishinsha, 1895), 76-77.
About Daigo-ji, another had this to say in passing: “The white wall with its five Imperial stripes borders the road at the left…”
Thomas Philip Terry, Terry’s Japanese Empire: With Chapters on Manchuria, the Trans-Siberian Railway, and the Chief Ocean Routes to Japan (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1914), 507.
I wonder if we could find those stripes in old emaki.
Chris Mayo
Ph.D. student
EAS Department, Princeton University
I'm just looking at an excellent photograph of the sanmon of Joruriji,
which has roofed walls to right and left with...three bands. The
spacing seems to be the key, rather than the number, so it's more
likely to be just the way to build a certain kind of wall.
In that particular case, the bands seem to be just slightly let in
rather than stuck on. I'll be passing through Shokokuji and the Gosho
tomorrow morning and will take a very close look at the precise way in
which these bands are worked there.
I'm curious, having built a few walls myself (though not that kind!).
There are different styles of pointing both for brick walls and stone
walls (in England), sometimes it's firmed in leaving a little groove,
and sometimes the cement is made to protrude in clean lines, giving a
distinctive surface profile, and sometimes it's made to slant so that
the rain drips off well to the front.
Michael
Michael Pye
Professor of the Study of Religions
University of Marburg, Germany (retired)
Visiting Professor, Otani University, Kyoto, Japan
Zitat von Christopher MAYO <cm...@Princeton.EDU>:
> Dear Matthew,
>
>
>
> Two old guidebooks to Kyoto have some interesting theories. The Kamo River
> flood level one sounds unlikely to me. The other two theories associate
> them somehow with the imperial family. Unfortunately, the guidebooks do not
> seem like especially reliable sources.
>
>
>
> According to one, "The Palace grounds, containing an area of about 26 acres,
> are surrounded by a high wall of earth and plaster covered with a tile roof.
> This wall is marked with five horizontal white stripes whose origin is
> uncertain. According to some they at first showed the heights reached by
> the Kamo River in some of its inundations; while others say that the lines
> represent five straw ropes that in ancient times were stretched about the
> place where an Emperor was encamped. The same ornament is used on the walls
> of temples that have been intimately associated with the Imperial Family."
>
> M. Ichihara, Official Guide-Book to Kyoto and the Allied Prefectures (Nara:
> Meishinsha, 1895), 76-77.
>
>
>
> About Daigo-ji, another had this to say in passing: "The white wall with its
> five Imperial stripes borders the road at the left."
Niels Guelberg
Just a couple more facts to keep you going, in fact two examples from Nara:
a) Next to the eastern gate of Shinyakushiji there is a wall with six
bands, the uppermost being only just under the tiles and thus scarcely
a symbolic statement. In the good quality photo I have here (but in a
book, so can't attach it) these bands seem very clearly to be inset,
as a strip of cement would be.
b) Next to the eastern gate of Gankoji is a wall with three visible
bands, but the wall surface has partly come away, being a layer of not
more than a couple of centimetres (modern ruler!) and the cement in
some places has come away too. Or rather, it has come out leaving a
deeper slit, so we can tell that it's definitely a pointing and
holding material and not just decoration. Since quite a bit of the
wall surface has come away, we can surmise from the proportions of
what remains that there were originally four bands in this case.
So, three, four, five, six. I can't really imagine that there's any
fancy symbolism here. It's just a well tried way to finish off mud
walls with a secure surface, anyway for a good long time. And
buildings of similar proportions have (or had) similar sized walls.
best wishes,
Michael Pye
Professor of the Study of Religions
University of Marburg, Germany (retired)
Visiting Professor, Otani University, Kyoto, Japan
Zitat von guel...@waseda.jp:
"Yoroikabe" is a common technic among masons of Shikoku, as f.e. by using Tosa
shikkui. So it would be a functional trait which envolved in a stylistic one.
Niels Guelberg
>Dear Colleagues,
>
>I'm intrigued by the comments so far and look forward to more. Let me make a
>few additions here:
>
>I'm a little skeptical about the theory of a structural trait evolving into
>a stylistic flourish. I myself do not focus on such things in my own work
>but my Japanese colleagues certainly do. They would have picked up on this.
>Moreover, if, in fact, the phenomenon is isolated to the capital, about
>which I have little confidence, then the structural argument becomes even
>weaker, it would seem. Also, among those who have commented on the topic,
>past and present, there is almost universal agreement about there being some
>symbolic relationship to the palace (禁裏).
>
>But there are also clues that make me think otherwise:
>
>Christopher's comment led me to examine several *Rakuchu-rakugaizu-byobu*,
>> M. Ichihara, *Official Guide-Book to Kyoto and the Allied Prefectures*(Nara: Meishinsha, 1895), 76-77.
>>
>>
>>
>> About Daigo-ji, another had this to say in passing: "The white wall with
>> its five Imperial stripes borders the road at the left…"
>>
>> Thomas Philip Terry, *Terry's Japanese Empire: With Chapters on Manchuria,
>> the Trans-Siberian Railway, and the Chief Ocean Routes to Japan* (Boston:
The striped walls are called "sujibei" (筋塀): Most explanations say that the stripes stand for the grade (the fifth is the highest) of the inhabitant.
Formerly used by the nobility; the temples received permission to use the stripes from the imperial house or other aristocratic families.
青蓮院は土塀の五本の筋が示す通り平安時代から続く天台宗京都三門跡の一つで境内全域が国の史跡に指定され江戸時代には筆頭門跡であった格式の高い寺院です。
But what about the other temples which have them?
土塀の五本の筋が示す通り平安時代から続く....sounds plausible, but then Shokokuji wasn't
built until 1382.
There is a tendency in Tendai or Tendai-related statements for people
just to make up anything. The quotation went on to refer to the
monzeki, as if there is a connection, but other temples which have the
bands in their walls are not monzeki. So methinks it's a question of
pride, positioning and story-telling.
But of coure it's interesting that the number of bands, though varied,
was often five. This was evidently a satisfactory number for the
height of the intended wall, for which no doubt permission was
required. Competing with the Gosho was not a good idea, until it
eventually came even to that....
Was there anything in pre-modern Japan for which one didn't need
permission? :)...
Michael Pye
Professor of the Study of Religions
University of Marburg, Germany (retired)
Visiting Professor, Otani University, Kyoto, Japan
Zitat von "robin d. gill" <robin...@gmail.com>:
> --
> "Rise, Ye Sea Slugs!"
>
> >
>
Five parallel white plaster lines signify nobility and monzeki 門跡 temples, monzeki ji-in 門跡寺院, temples to which a member of the imperial family has retired.
いわゆる「筋塀」と言われる土塀。
白い三本の横筋は、寺の格を表す。
京都などで多く見かける有名な寺(門跡寺院など)は五本。
五本が最高の格式。
五本以外の横筋(定規筋と言う)は珍しい。
http://hkangawa.web.infoseek.co.jp/newpage32.html
塀のお話
http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~kotonara/heinoohanasi.htm
But I guess you have seen all this already.
Very interesting thread. Maybe best ask a shakansan in Kyoto who is
involved in constructing and upkeeping these walls.
GABI
> http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/t/tsuiji.htm
>
>
> The explanation offered
>
>
> Five parallel white plaster lines signify nobility and monzeki 門跡 temples,
> monzeki ji-in 門跡寺院, temples to which a member of the imperial family has
> retired.
>
> perhaps helps explain the somewhat random distribution.
> Cheers,
>
> Steve Forrest
>
snip the rest
The number of stripes on a temple wall is an indicator of that temple's status, it's 寺格. It is said that the use of 5 lines is reserves for use at sectarian headquarter temples. Those temples with fewer lines have a lower status.
In the past, there were strict rules about the number of lines a temple could use in their walls. From Meiji, however, the rules began to break down and it became such that temples were free to do what they wanted. That said, even today, many temples are aware of the tradition and the number of lines they use reflects this. Sometimes, when a provincial sub-temples [that have no inherent status?] builds walls with 5 lines, they are scorned by those around them for their lack of common sense.
As an aside, I have heard that there is a sectarian headquarter temple somewhere in Kyoto that boasts 7 lines in their walls. I'll have to get back to you on this, however, because I've forgotten which one it is.
I went to Shokokuji and the Gosho this morning as promised, passing
some other temples on Teramachi. Two or three of the latter have
stripes on their walls. They are stuck on, evidently being in
prefabricated strips, which also tend to peel off again. The
structural function which I still think is probably the origin (i.e.
applying the outer wall coating in strips) no longer applies. They
even use these thin strips at the Gosho now. They're only about 2 mm
thick. When you go up close for a photo an alarm bell goes and a voice
warns you that this is a national treasure and we should take care of
it...
At Shokokuji I noticed that practically all the walls have no stripes.
Only the walls around the southern gate (towards the Gosho) have the
stripes. There are five, with rather big spaces between them. To the
left of the south gate is the gate known as the Chokushimon, and the
walls to left and right of this have the stripes. In other words they
are there to welcome the chokushi.
There is an extremely courteous and knowledgeable porter on duty, and
he said it's only for the Chokushimon (not quite true, because of the
short stretch of wall to the right of the southern gate. The spaces,
he said, are rather large because of the height of the wall. When the
wall is less high, the spaces are smaller. I.e. it should still be five.
Some modern temple buildings (nearby) step their walls in a manner
reminiscent of the banded ones, - a bit like having a plastic bamboo
fence.
So looking at it from here:
(a) a useful structural feature became stylised
(b) the pattern on the palace walls was adopted elsewhere as a compliment
(c) this reflects a hierarchical relation to the imperial household
(d) further afield, variations occurred, with or without permission.
So I'm not sure that it's all that mysterious really....
I don't think there's much point speculating about the "five". Once
established it was copied (as usual in Japan). The very fact that it
wasn't always five shows the relative insignificance of the number,
beyond the initially established convention.
But of course if anybody finds prior evidence to the contrary, as
opposed to speculation a posteriori, OK.
Michael Pye
Professor of the Study of Religions
University of Marburg, Germany (retired)
Visiting Professor, Otani University, Kyoto, Japan
Zitat von Matthew Stavros <msta...@gmail.com>:
>> http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~kotonara/heinoohanasi.htm<http://www.eonet.ne.jp/%7Ekotonara/heinoohanasi.htm>
>>
>> But I guess you have seen all this already.
>>
>> Very interesting thread. Maybe best ask a shakansan in Kyoto who is
>> involved in constructing and upkeeping these walls.
>>
>> GABI
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/t/tsuiji.htm<http://www.aisf.or.jp/%7Ejaanus/deta/t/tsuiji.htm>
Dear all,
I do not have the "Coaldrake´s Architecture and Authority in Japan" at hand for the moment but he might very well have mentioned something on this. I am pretty convinced that the bands are marks of status and class most probably in relation to the imperial order. There is no use to examine how the plaster cover of the today walls is made in order to get any clues about the origin and technique. On its surface, almost all architectural traces standing today depart in almost all detailed aspects from its "origin" or, as the case with all monuments all over the world also Japanese architectural works mirror the present time or at least the period since its last renovation, fire, owner or shift in use. Matthew Stavros, you mentioned Ryoanji in your first posting as an example of a temple that was not an imperial temple but I am sure you know that before it became a temple the grounds belonged to an estate of the Imperial Fujiwara family. For a visitor to the newly erected Heiankyo in 1000th century the only thing to be seen were the endless walls in its huge grid system. These walls and their porticoes told the visitor everything they needed to know about the inhibitor on the other side. The wall together with its portico was indeed of highest importance in all early capitals in Japan. I would truly be surprised if this has not been a subject for thorough Japanese research. I am very interested in your question in the answers. It is an exiting thread to follow.
Sincerely
Karin Löfgren
Ph.D. Architect SAR/MSA
Many years ago, I was staying with a host family in Kyoto. As I
recall, a member of the host family pointed out the five banded walls
and claimed that they indicated an imperial connection. However, also
recall seeing five banded walls other places where there is unlikely
to be any imperial connection.
However, there is another rather obvious possible explanation:
Japanese have for a rather long time standardized building components
just as loom widths have been somewhat standardized.
Japanese also have a well known architectural objective to inclose
space with the best rooms being innermost.
Japanese also have a well known aversion to the number four.
Combining a standard width section, the need to avoid the number
four, and a desire to enclose space with a wall about five shaku high
you can easily obtain the observed architectural feature.
If you are looking for esoteric explanations, then the five elements
one is probably it. Other symbolic numbers appear in the gasho
gesture which unifies the six undesirable and the four desirable
rebirths.
Barbara Nostrand
Some further responses.
Karin Löfgren's observation "I am pretty convinced that the bands are
marks of status and class most probably in relation to the imperial
order" would be approved of by a thoughtful temple priest at Enjoji,
an independent Tendai-like temple on Teramachi, just to the east of
the Gosho, who yesterday told me exactly the same. Five shows the
highest status and reflects the imperial connection, for whatever
reason. Temples with lower status have less bands, he said. There
doesn't seem any reason to doubt this as a valid, central answer to
the question as originally posed.
About: "There is no use to examine how the plaster cover of the today
walls is made in order to get any clues about the origin and
technique." No doubt (as KL says) "On its surface, almost all
architectural traces standing today depart in almost all detailed
aspects from its "origin"...."
This isn't always quite true in Japan, where some traditional
structures are rebuilt meticulously using the existing (i.e.
traditional techniques). This is only partly the case in the mud and
tiled walls, even though they are still made of mud and tiles (and
surface plaster).
But apart from that (as a mere lay person in building matters, if
sometimes hands-on) I can't quite agree that there is simply no use in
examing the technique, even if it has changed. We can see from a
careful look today that whereas there apparently used to be real
grooves in the mud, separating manageable panels of surface plaster,
there is now just a stuck on band. This it "originally" was not,
agreed, but this very knowledge about the grooves tells us that the
bands earlier very likely had something to do with the construction,
as well as being a statement of status. It would be interesting to
know just when the structure-based design gave way to the design only
(including for the Gosho!), but we probably never will...
By the way, I noticed another variation on some bands yesterday,
namely a raised "pointing" which separated the panels of surface
plaster, and this may also be a late reminsicence of the
constructional funtion.
As to shaku (c.f. Barbara Nostrand) the spacing presumably began with
a standard measurement, but the fact that there later came to be a
considerable difference in the spaces in some cases (as in the very
big ones at Shokokuji) shows again that priority came to be given to
the number rather than the technique, at least from some stage
onwards. In general, while there are very fixed measurements for all
kinds of things, there is an astonishing variety of supposedly
standard measurements. Think of tatami. Or think of the differing
Hertz cycles used in Kanto and Kansai electricity...
Returning to the concept of "origin", surely the "origin" in this case
lies in the combination of a construction and the meaning initially
assigned to it. So there need be no great cause for disagreement.
When it comes to "explanation" on the other hand, we have to be very
much aware that some later explanations reflect various positioning by
the players. We already saw this in one contemporary Tendai quotation
(Robin Gill) which was evidently pulling rank with the help of an
inaccurate historical statement (i.e. that the five bands show the
Heian period origin of the temple - they may do, but not necessarily).
Similarly, unless there is some early textual evidence for a link to
"five elements", the five levels in a stupa, etc. there isn't much
point in thinking about it. Later, even if pre-modern references to
any "explanations" like that would be just as speculative as modern
guesswork.
It's well known that in general odd numbers are preferred in Japanese
designs of any kind and that the number four is avoided. However it is
not always completely avoided. Again, this can't really be used in
explanation in this particular case, unless there is an early
documentation for it.
So it's: how to build a wall - plus - who are you trying to impress....
best wishes,
Just for the fun of it, from my last visit to Temple Town, Teramachi in Yonago,
here are photos of the gate walls.
Most walls had been destroyed during the earthquake in 2001.
Many walls have wooden boards now, some seem sujibei 筋塀.
It was great to read all your comments on the wall structures !
http://traveloguegokuraku.blogspot.com/2008/05/temple-walls.html
Gabi
here is the full thread
http://groups.google.com/group/pmjs/browse_thread/thread/680213ff87e94ead?hl=en
.
The bands are markers of several different statuses, which is why it
is so difficult to ascertain their function. The imperial connection
accounts for some cases of their use. Temples of monzeki status had
them as well but so too do the walls of temples that are the top of a
particular shuha or sect. (This would, incidentally, explain why
Shokokuji now has the five banded walls). Such emphasis on shuha
suggests that this other use of the five bands as a marker arose in
the Tokugawa period (admittedly this is my assumption. Further
research should clarify, but the Rakuchu Rakugai byobu's depiction of
Shokokuji with four bands may indicate an earlier ranking system).
More recently, however, the five banded walls designate structures
that are national treasures (kokuho)--such as Ryoanji--while three
bands denote prefectural treasures (bunkazai). Branch temples
(mastuji) would not have them, unless they were more recently
designated as a kokuho or juyo bunkazai. I hope this explanation
clarifies.
Best wishes,
Tom Conlan
Associate Professor of Japanese History
Bowdoin College