Phonetic Transcription for "Yamato"

[Jeffrey Kotyk]

Hi everyone,

The Wamyō ruiju shō 倭名類聚抄 has the following entry for 大和:

大和   於保夜万止

I understand that this is supposed to be read as Oho[Ō]-Yamato, but I was wondering why 止 is read as と ? 

The on-yomi reading would be し, and the other kanji are being used phonetically based on their on-yomi readings. Is 止 here the kun-yomi  "と"  (like と・む / 止む)?

Similarly, below we see this:

山門    夜万止

This appears to be Yamado, not Yamashi, correct?

Many thanks for any clarification,

Jeffrey Kotyk

University of British Columbia

--

Jeffrey Kotyk

PhD, Leiden University (2017).

MA, Komazawa University (2011).

BA, University of Alberta (2009).

[Александр Запрягаев]

Hello!

Yes, 止 is clearly a kungana for tö (tömar-/tömë-). In fact, it is the predecessor of katakana’s ト.I think it is the most frequent character to render tö in the Man’yōshū. 

Alexander Zapryagaev

четверг, 21 октября 2021 г. в 09:06:55 UTC+3, kot...@gmail.com:

[Duthie, Torquil]

Dear Jeffrey and all,

 

止looks like a case of 借訓, but it is actually a so-called 古音 reading (ie, from the Han, Wei dynasties). It is used in some of the oldest instances of phonographic writing (as well as in MYS, etc, of course). Another example of this is the reading “o” for 意.

 

Best wishes,

 

Torquil

 

Torquil Duthie

Asian Languages and Cultures, UCLA

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[John Kupchik]

Hi Jeffrey,

to2 was the phonographic reading of 止 in the Asuka and Nara periods. It seems to reflect the Old Chinese pronunciation *tǝʔ (see, for example, page 454 of John Bentley's 2016 book "ABC Dictionary of Ancient Japanese Phonograms"). There are other phonograms from this time period that also reflect earlier Old Chinese readings.

Best wishes,

John Kupchik
The University of Auckland

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[萬井 良大]

Dear Jeffrey,

There are some kinds of on-yomi, such as go-on(呉音), kan-on(漢音), tō-on(唐音). For example, the kanji 行 has three on-yomi. The Go-on is "gō" or "gyō," Kan-on is "Kō," Tō-on is "An."

These three types of on-yomi are classified by the time when kanji was imported. Go-on was imported before Nara period. Kan-on was imported in Nara period. Tō-on was imported in Kamakura period.

Actually, there is one more type of on-yomi, called Ko-on(古音). It was imported before Go-on was imported. 止(to) is Ko-on. Furthermore, Hiragana と was created from 止.

山門 is pronounced as "Yamato." Both yama and to are kun-yomi. In Japanese, the gate is と. Today, 戸 is normally used for a Kanji.

All the best,
Yoshihiro Man'i

[S. Tsumura]

While we are on the subject of on-yomi, there is still another type, besides go-on(呉音), kan-on(漢音), tō-on(唐音). It is the kan-yô-on (慣用音) (or 馴れ), “customary reading”. The Kôjien defines it as
呉音・漢音・唐音以外に、わが国で昔から通用している字音。「消耗」の「耗」を「もう」、「輸出」の「輸」を「ゆ」として用いる類。When one searches, there are many common examples as shû 宗, nyô　女, cha 茶, gai 街, do 土.
It appears to be different from the “old on 古音” as the Kojien defines it differently and gives different examples, as 呉音以前に日本に伝わった漢字音。「意」をオ、「巷」をソとする類。

Susan Tsumura

> On Oct 21, 2021, at 16:24, 萬井 良大 <ihso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Jeffrey,
>
> There are some kinds of on-yomi, such as go-on(呉音), kan-on(漢音), tō-on(唐音). For example, the kanji 行 has three on-yomi. The Go-on is "gō" or "gyō," Kan-on is "Kō," Tō-on is "An."
>

[Alexander Vovin]

Dear all,

The reading tə for 止 well predates Late Han and Wei periods. At that time the initial consonant was already an affricate: LHC tśəɁ > EMC tśïᴮ. It reflects OC *təɁ (OC *-ə rhyme).  止 does not appear in the man'yōgana B, therefore it belongs only to the man'yōgana A, which was filtered through the Old Korean writing system. Indeed,  止 is attested, e.g., in Kyunye's <請佛住世歌>. This explains how this OC reading made it to Asuka-Nara Western Old Japanese.

Alexander Vovin
Membre élu d'Academia Europaea
Directeur d'études, linguistique historique du Japon, de la Corée et de l'Asie centrale

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Editor-in-chief, series Languages of Asia, Brill

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[Jeffrey Kotyk]

Thanks everyone for the insightful responses! I was confused because I looked at the fanqie 反切 for 止 and saw 諸市切, but I was thinking in terms of Middle Chinese pronunciation,

 but we clearly need to look back to Old Chinese!

It is fascinating that an Old Chinese reading (Baxter–Sagart gives *təʔ) was employed in this way in Japan. Now it all makes sense.

Interestingly, the Hou Han shu 後漢書 gives 邪馬台 for Yamato (其大倭王居邪馬台國).

Jeffrey Kotyk

University of British Columbia

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[Or Porath]

Dear all,

Jeffrey's question has led to a very interesting discussion. There is a tendency to ascribe to 止 the folk etymology of tomeru/tomaru. I am wondering if there are any other examples for kanji that we tend to associate with kun sounds, but in fact have Chinese readings (or even vice versa)?

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--

Or Porath, PhD
Postdoctoral Researcher and Instructor

Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations
University of Chicago

[Alexander Vovin]

It is because in Han times 台 was read thə. Therefore all the controversy concerning the location of "Yamatai" goes out of the window. Yamatə could only be in Yamatə.

Alexander Vovin
Membre élu d'Academia Europaea
Directeur d'études, linguistique historique du Japon, de la Corée et de l'Asie centrale

ECOLE DES HAUTES ETUDES EN SCIENCES SOCIALES;

CENTRE DE RECHERCHES LINGUISTIQUES SUR L'ASIE ORIENTALE

Membre associé de CENTRE DE RECHERCHES SUR LE JAPON

Laureate of 2015 Japanese Institute for Humanities Prize for a Foreign Scholar

Editor-in-chief, series Languages of Asia, Brill

Co-editor, of International Journal of Eurasian Linguistics, Brill

PI of the ERC Advanced Project, AN ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE JAPONIC LANGUAGES

105 Blvd Raspail, 75006 Paris

sasha...@gmail.com
https://ehess.academia.edu/AlexanderVovin

https://www.edj-vovin.com/

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/CAF-r9vNcJaotmkcx-15%2BruP8VYizGOhszkLmU9hT860UNFhieQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[kfrida...@gmail.com]

One of the more interesting examples of this phenomena that I’ve come across is the etymology of the character “bu” (武) claimed by Japanese bugeisha. Chinese and modern Japanese martial art lore likes to ascribe the character’s origins to the idea of stopping (止) a spear (矛 or 戈), although the actual etymology is probably about marching with a spear (with the 止 element representing feet or footprints, rather than stop). But some Japanese classical schools koryū claim the character’s reading comes from musubu (often written as 生ぶ) and that it refers to acts of creation, such as when Izanami and Izanagi created the Japanese islands using a spear. The significance of the difference is, of course, that it puts an even more positive spin on the idea of martial art—asserting that it’s not just about stopping violence, but about active creation. It’s an interesting example, at any rate, of phonetic gymnastics in the pursuit of shūgen (祝言).

 

--

Best,

 

--Karl

 

======================================

カール・フライデー 歴史学博士

Karl Friday, PhD

Professor Emeritus 名誉教授

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[Александр Запрягаев]

Big thanks to all the esteemed perticipants here, who have persuasively shown 止 to be in its origin an ongana, likely filtered through a Korean intermediary. Yet, a note of interest concerning the realization of such an origin (or lack thereof): despite being heavily used in probably every other Old Japanese source (up to Shoku Nihongi poems and the edicts), 止  is completely absent from the poetry of Kojiki and Nihon Shoki. As these are the only two sources that self-consciously applied the intent to use ongana only, it could be a hist that for Nara Japanese scribes, unaware of Old Chinese pronunciations but knowing there tome- well, 止 was already felt to be a kungana.

Alexander Zapryagaev

пятница, 22 октября 2021 г. в 03:42:46 UTC+3, kfrida...@gmail.com:

[Alexander Vovin]

The absence of 止 in the Kojiki and the Nihonshoki is easily explained. It could not be used in the Nihonshoki for the simple reason that the man'yōgana B is based on the LMC phonology, and in LMC it was already /tśï/. Kojiki strives to use just one ongana for the same syllable (very much unlike MYS). 止 was not the choice, but if you look into the contemporary or even earlier mokkan, you will see plenty of examples with 止

Alexander Vovin
Membre élu d'Academia Europaea
Directeur d'études, linguistique historique du Japon, de la Corée et de l'Asie centrale

ECOLE DES HAUTES ETUDES EN SCIENCES SOCIALES;

CENTRE DE RECHERCHES LINGUISTIQUES SUR L'ASIE ORIENTALE

Membre associé de CENTRE DE RECHERCHES SUR LE JAPON

Laureate of 2015 Japanese Institute for Humanities Prize for a Foreign Scholar

Editor-in-chief, series Languages of Asia, Brill

Co-editor, of International Journal of Eurasian Linguistics, Brill

PI of the ERC Advanced Project, AN ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE JAPONIC LANGUAGES

105 Blvd Raspail, 75006 Paris

sasha...@gmail.com
https://ehess.academia.edu/AlexanderVovin

https://www.edj-vovin.com/

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