Sogyo Hachiman, Dogyo Shinzo, etc.
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Norman Havens
Jun 9, 2009, 7:11:41 AM6/9/09
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Dear All,
I'm working on the translation of a catalogue for a show at the National Museum and am having trouble coming up with an acceptable expression for the item title 僧形八幡 （sougyou hachiman）. My prefered rendering is "Hachiman in the Style of a Buddhist Monk," using "style" in the sense of a particular type or form, but without using those words. (In fact, someone at the museum suggested "Hachiman in the Form of a Monk," but I think that's just wrong.) Another usage is "Hachiman in priestly attire" or "Hachiman in priestly garb" (vestments?), but somehow I'm still partial to "style, " since for me it expresses the entirety of the depiction--including the tonsure and perhaps other elements as well--not merely the clothing.
Christine Ruth Kanda's (CRK) Shinzou has a section entitled "Hachiman as a monk" (p46), with other explanatory phrases such as "Hachiman's portrayal as a Buddhist monk," "Hachiman . . . represented in monastic garb," and "Hachiman was depicted in the guise of a monk." The latter seems to be an influential rendering since I've found a number of similar examples using "guise," but something still grates on me about the word, perhaps because it's reminiscent of another rendering that I dislike even more, namely "Sogyo Hachiman (Shinto deity) in disguise as a Monk."
I guess I'm asking for reasons why I should not use "Hachiman in the Style of a Buddhist Priest (or monk)"?
If it isn't acceptable, I wonder whether "Hachiman Depicted As a Buddhist Priest" or "Hachiman Portrayed As a Buddhist Priest" would be better, or do you have another suggestion that could pass the censors?
(Another example is Dogyo shinzo 童形神像 --"image of deity in the style of a young boy."
Thanks much.
I'm working on the translation of a catalogue for a show at the National Museum and am having trouble coming up with an acceptable expression for the item title 僧形八幡 （sougyou hachiman）. My prefered rendering is "Hachiman in the Style of a Buddhist Monk," using "style" in the sense of a particular type or form, but without using those words. (In fact, someone at the museum suggested "Hachiman in the Form of a Monk," but I think that's just wrong.) Another usage is "Hachiman in priestly attire" or "Hachiman in priestly garb" (vestments?), but somehow I'm still partial to "style, " since for me it expresses the entirety of the depiction--including the tonsure and perhaps other elements as well--not merely the clothing.
Christine Ruth Kanda's (CRK) Shinzou has a section entitled "Hachiman as a monk" (p46), with other explanatory phrases such as "Hachiman's portrayal as a Buddhist monk," "Hachiman . . . represented in monastic garb," and "Hachiman was depicted in the guise of a monk." The latter seems to be an influential rendering since I've found a number of similar examples using "guise," but something still grates on me about the word, perhaps because it's reminiscent of another rendering that I dislike even more, namely "Sogyo Hachiman (Shinto deity) in disguise as a Monk."
I guess I'm asking for reasons why I should not use "Hachiman in the Style of a Buddhist Priest (or monk)"?
If it isn't acceptable, I wonder whether "Hachiman Depicted As a Buddhist Priest" or "Hachiman Portrayed As a Buddhist Priest" would be better, or do you have another suggestion that could pass the censors?
(Another example is Dogyo shinzo 童形神像 --"image of deity in the style of a young boy."
Thanks much.
============
Norman
Havens
<nha...@gol.com>
Green Gables,
Fujino-machi
&
Kokugakuin University, Tokyo
<http://www2.gol.com/users/nhavens>
". . .And only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Richard Bowring
Jun 9, 2009, 7:20:38 AM6/9/09
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I would go for the simplest, so 'Hachiman as a monk' seems fine. The
longer versions all suggest that he was X pretending to be Y but this
produces a clear (and false) dichotomy. He was not X as Y, but X and
Y (and A and Z too, of course).
Richard Bowring
Cambridge
longer versions all suggest that he was X pretending to be Y but this
produces a clear (and false) dichotomy. He was not X as Y, but X and
Y (and A and Z too, of course).
Richard Bowring
Cambridge
Mark Schumacher
Jun 9, 2009, 8:54:39 AM6/9/09
to pm...@googlegroups.com
Dear Havens-san,
How about "Hachiman manifested as a monk."
Hachiman figures prominently in both Buddhist and Shintō lore,
and thus has various manifestations. Artwork of
Sōgyō Hachiman 僧形八幡 shows him in priestly attire,
and this is commonly translated as "in the guise of a monk."
In my mind, there is nothing wrong with the term "guise."
I don't understand your resistance to its use when
referring to Sōgyō Hachiman. Your preferred phrase "in the style
of" eliminates the nuance of "manifestation," and thus it is
inaccurate. A photo of the famous statue of Sōgyō Hachiman
at Tōdaiji Temple can be found at:
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/tsurugaoka-hachiman.shtml
Below text from:
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/shrine-guide.shtml#hachimangu
Hachimangū Shrines 八幡宮. Hachimangu Shrines worship the 15th Emperor, Ōjin, who was long ago deified as the god Hachiman (lit. "eight banners" which supposedly fell from heaven in legends involving Ōjin). These shrines typically deify three figures -- Emperor Ōjin, his mother Empress Jingu, and Ōjin's wife Himegami. In the late 6th century, the Hachiman cult was based at Usa Hachimangū 宇佐八幡宮 shrine in Ōita Prefecture, with the deity playing an oracular function and exhibiting attributes of both Shintō animism and Korean shamanism. It was only later, sometime in the 9th century, that the deity became associated with Emperor Ōjin, and later still that Hachiman became worshipped as the god of archery and war, ultimately becoming the tutelary deity of the Minamoto Clan (especially Minamoto Yoritomo, founder of the Kamakura shogunate). Hachiman is also considered a Bodhisattva, and thus serves as protector in both Shintō and Buddhist traditions. The Tsurugaoka Hachimangū Shrine in Kamakura ranks among the most prestigious shrines in Japan. There are approximately 30,000 Hachimangu shrines nationwide, with the head shrine at Usa Hachimangu in Ōita Prefecture.
bye now
mark
How about "Hachiman manifested as a monk."
Hachiman figures prominently in both Buddhist and Shintō lore,
and thus has various manifestations. Artwork of
Sōgyō Hachiman 僧形八幡 shows him in priestly attire,
and this is commonly translated as "in the guise of a monk."
In my mind, there is nothing wrong with the term "guise."
I don't understand your resistance to its use when
referring to Sōgyō Hachiman. Your preferred phrase "in the style
of" eliminates the nuance of "manifestation," and thus it is
inaccurate. A photo of the famous statue of Sōgyō Hachiman
at Tōdaiji Temple can be found at:
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/tsurugaoka-hachiman.shtml
Below text from:
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/shrine-guide.shtml#hachimangu
Hachimangū Shrines 八幡宮. Hachimangu Shrines worship the 15th Emperor, Ōjin, who was long ago deified as the god Hachiman (lit. "eight banners" which supposedly fell from heaven in legends involving Ōjin). These shrines typically deify three figures -- Emperor Ōjin, his mother Empress Jingu, and Ōjin's wife Himegami. In the late 6th century, the Hachiman cult was based at Usa Hachimangū 宇佐八幡宮 shrine in Ōita Prefecture, with the deity playing an oracular function and exhibiting attributes of both Shintō animism and Korean shamanism. It was only later, sometime in the 9th century, that the deity became associated with Emperor Ōjin, and later still that Hachiman became worshipped as the god of archery and war, ultimately becoming the tutelary deity of the Minamoto Clan (especially Minamoto Yoritomo, founder of the Kamakura shogunate). Hachiman is also considered a Bodhisattva, and thus serves as protector in both Shintō and Buddhist traditions. The Tsurugaoka Hachimangū Shrine in Kamakura ranks among the most prestigious shrines in Japan. There are approximately 30,000 Hachimangu shrines nationwide, with the head shrine at Usa Hachimangu in Ōita Prefecture.
bye now
mark
-- Mark Schumacher A-to-Z Dictionary of Japanese Buddhist Statuary http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/buddhism.shtml Buddhist Statuary Store http://www.buddhist-artwork.com
Michael Pye
Jun 9, 2009, 9:22:28 AM6/9/09
to pm...@googlegroups.com
Dear Norman, and All,
Yes, simplicity is a virtue. And the difficulty with both "manifested"
and "guise" is that they are a touch more suggestive of the modalities
of the appearance than the original term. Yet the element -gyo is
there (no long signs this evening), and requires something if
possible. And as it happens it is possible in this case, and quite
simply really:
Sogyo - so no katachi - in the form of a monk - Hachiman in the form
of a monk.
Why do more? Leave the further nuances and modalities open, as in the
expression to be translated.
But I'm wondering why you said that "Hachiman in the form of a monk"
is "just wrong"? Is it because you want somehow to tell us more about
it, by using a more complex translation? But shouldn't that be rather
the purpose of a commentary on it, if any?
all best, Michael
Michael Pye
Professor of the Study of Religions
University of Marburg, Germany (retired)
Visiting Professor, Otani University, Kyoto, Japan
Zitat von Mark Schumacher <m...@onmarkproductions.com>:
> Dear Havens-san,
>
> How about "Hachiman manifested as a monk."
> Hachiman figures prominently in both Buddhist and Shinto- lore,
> at To-daiji Temple can be found at:
>
> http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/tsurugaoka-hachiman.shtml
>
> *Below text from:*
> http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/shrine-guide.shtml#hachimangu
> *Hachimangu- Shrines* ???. Hachimangu Shrines worship the 15th
> Emperor, O-jin, who was long ago deified as the god /Hachiman/ (lit.
> his mother Empress Jingu, and O-jin's wife Himegami. In the late 6th
> century, the Hachiman cult was based at Usa Hachimangu- ?????
> shrine in O-ita Prefecture, with the deity playing an oracular function
> and exhibiting attributes of both Shinto- animism and Korean shamanism.
> both Shinto- and Buddhist traditions. The Tsurugaoka Hachimangu- Shrine
> <../html/tsurugaoka-hachiman.shtml> in Kamakura ranks among the most
>>> hachiman). My prefered rendering is "Hachiman in the Style of
Yes, simplicity is a virtue. And the difficulty with both "manifested"
and "guise" is that they are a touch more suggestive of the modalities
of the appearance than the original term. Yet the element -gyo is
there (no long signs this evening), and requires something if
possible. And as it happens it is possible in this case, and quite
simply really:
Sogyo - so no katachi - in the form of a monk - Hachiman in the form
of a monk.
Why do more? Leave the further nuances and modalities open, as in the
expression to be translated.
But I'm wondering why you said that "Hachiman in the form of a monk"
is "just wrong"? Is it because you want somehow to tell us more about
it, by using a more complex translation? But shouldn't that be rather
the purpose of a commentary on it, if any?
all best, Michael
Michael Pye
Professor of the Study of Religions
University of Marburg, Germany (retired)
Visiting Professor, Otani University, Kyoto, Japan
Zitat von Mark Schumacher <m...@onmarkproductions.com>:
> Dear Havens-san,
>
> How about "Hachiman manifested as a monk."
> and thus has various manifestations. Artwork of
> So-gyo- Hachiman ???? shows him in priestly attire,
> and this is commonly translated as "in the guise of a monk."
>
> In my mind, there is nothing wrong with the term "guise."
> I don't understand your resistance to its use when
> referring to So-gyo- Hachiman. Your preferred phrase "in the style
>
> In my mind, there is nothing wrong with the term "guise."
> I don't understand your resistance to its use when
> of" eliminates the nuance of "manifestation," and thus it is
> inaccurate. A photo of the famous statue of So-gyo- Hachiman
> at To-daiji Temple can be found at:
>
> http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/tsurugaoka-hachiman.shtml
>
> *Below text from:*
> http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/shrine-guide.shtml#hachimangu
> *Hachimangu- Shrines* ???. Hachimangu Shrines worship the 15th
> Emperor, O-jin, who was long ago deified as the god /Hachiman/ (lit.
> "eight banners" which supposedly fell from heaven in legends involving
> O-jin). These shrines typically deify three figures -- Emperor O-jin,
> his mother Empress Jingu, and O-jin's wife Himegami. In the late 6th
> century, the Hachiman cult was based at Usa Hachimangu- ?????
> shrine in O-ita Prefecture, with the deity playing an oracular function
> and exhibiting attributes of both Shinto- animism and Korean shamanism.
> It was only later, sometime in the 9th century, that the deity became
> associated with Emperor O-jin, and later still that Hachiman became
> worshipped as the god of archery and war, ultimately becoming the
> tutelary deity of the Minamoto Clan (especially Minamoto Yoritomo,
> founder of the Kamakura shogunate). Hachiman is also considered a
> Bodhisattva <../html/bodhisattva.shtml>, and thus serves as protector in
> tutelary deity of the Minamoto Clan (especially Minamoto Yoritomo,
> founder of the Kamakura shogunate). Hachiman is also considered a
> both Shinto- and Buddhist traditions. The Tsurugaoka Hachimangu- Shrine
> <../html/tsurugaoka-hachiman.shtml> in Kamakura ranks among the most
> prestigious shrines in Japan. There are approximately 30,000 Hachimangu
> shrines nationwide, with the head shrine at Usa Hachimangu in O-ita
> Prefecture.
>
> bye now
> mark
>
>> I would go for the simplest, so 'Hachiman as a monk' seems fine. The
>> longer versions all suggest that he was X pretending to be Y but this
>> produces a clear (and false) dichotomy. He was not X as Y, but X and
>> Y (and A and Z too, of course).
>> Richard Bowring
>> Cambridge
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9 Jun 2009, at 12:11, Norman Havens wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> I'm working on the translation of a catalogue for a show at the
>>> National Museum and am having trouble coming up with an acceptable
>>> expression for the item title ???? (sougyou
>
> bye now
> mark
>
>> I would go for the simplest, so 'Hachiman as a monk' seems fine. The
>> longer versions all suggest that he was X pretending to be Y but this
>> produces a clear (and false) dichotomy. He was not X as Y, but X and
>> Y (and A and Z too, of course).
>> Richard Bowring
>> Cambridge
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9 Jun 2009, at 12:11, Norman Havens wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> I'm working on the translation of a catalogue for a show at the
>>> National Museum and am having trouble coming up with an acceptable
>>> hachiman). My prefered rendering is "Hachiman in the Style of
>>> a Buddhist Monk," using "style" in the sense of a particular type
>>> or form, but without using those words. (In fact, someone at the
>>> museum suggested "Hachiman in the Form of a Monk," but I think
>>> that's just wrong.) Another usage is "Hachiman in priestly attire"
>>> or "Hachiman in priestly garb" (vestments?), but somehow I'm still
>>> partial to "style, " since for me it expresses the entirety of the
>>> depiction--including the tonsure and perhaps other elements as
>>> well--not merely the clothing.
>>> Christine Ruth Kanda's (CRK) Shinzou has a section entitled
>>> "Hachiman as a monk" (p46), with other explanatory phrases such as
>>> "Hachiman's portrayal as a Buddhist monk," "Hachiman . . .
>>> represented in monastic garb," and "Hachiman was depicted in the
>>> guise of a monk." The latter seems to be an influential rendering
>>> since I've found a number of similar examples using "guise," but
>>> something still grates on me about the word, perhaps because it's
>>> reminiscent of another rendering that I dislike even more, namely
>>> "Sogyo Hachiman (Shinto deity) in disguise as a Monk."
>>>
>>> I guess I'm asking for reasons why I should not use "Hachiman in
>>> the Style of a Buddhist Priest (or monk)"?
>>> If it isn't acceptable, I wonder whether "Hachiman Depicted As a
>>> Buddhist Priest" or "Hachiman Portrayed As a Buddhist Priest" would
>>> be better, or do you have another suggestion that could pass the
>>> censors?
>>> (Another example is Dogyo shinzo ???? --"image of deity in
>>> or form, but without using those words. (In fact, someone at the
>>> museum suggested "Hachiman in the Form of a Monk," but I think
>>> that's just wrong.) Another usage is "Hachiman in priestly attire"
>>> or "Hachiman in priestly garb" (vestments?), but somehow I'm still
>>> partial to "style, " since for me it expresses the entirety of the
>>> depiction--including the tonsure and perhaps other elements as
>>> well--not merely the clothing.
>>> Christine Ruth Kanda's (CRK) Shinzou has a section entitled
>>> "Hachiman as a monk" (p46), with other explanatory phrases such as
>>> "Hachiman's portrayal as a Buddhist monk," "Hachiman . . .
>>> represented in monastic garb," and "Hachiman was depicted in the
>>> guise of a monk." The latter seems to be an influential rendering
>>> since I've found a number of similar examples using "guise," but
>>> something still grates on me about the word, perhaps because it's
>>> reminiscent of another rendering that I dislike even more, namely
>>> "Sogyo Hachiman (Shinto deity) in disguise as a Monk."
>>>
>>> I guess I'm asking for reasons why I should not use "Hachiman in
>>> the Style of a Buddhist Priest (or monk)"?
>>> If it isn't acceptable, I wonder whether "Hachiman Depicted As a
>>> Buddhist Priest" or "Hachiman Portrayed As a Buddhist Priest" would
>>> be better, or do you have another suggestion that could pass the
>>> censors?
Quitman Eugene Phillips
Jun 9, 2009, 7:34:35 PM6/9/09
to pm...@googlegroups.com
Dear All,
I would agree with Richard Bowring's suggestion of "Hachiman as a Buddhist
Monk" as a translation simply because it is short and as non-misleading as
any translation of the modern title can be. Without the need to translate,
I would probably be tempted simply to label the image "Hachiman." The monk
form was, after all, the standard representation/conception of the
deity/bodisattva in premodern Japan.
Best,
Gene
Quitman Eugene Phillips
Professor of Art History, East Asian Studies,
and Religious Studies
University of Wisconsin
800 University Avenue
Madison, WI 53706
(608) 263-2289
Fax 265-6425
I would agree with Richard Bowring's suggestion of "Hachiman as a Buddhist
Monk" as a translation simply because it is short and as non-misleading as
any translation of the modern title can be. Without the need to translate,
I would probably be tempted simply to label the image "Hachiman." The monk
form was, after all, the standard representation/conception of the
deity/bodisattva in premodern Japan.
Best,
Gene
Quitman Eugene Phillips
Professor of Art History, East Asian Studies,
and Religious Studies
University of Wisconsin
800 University Avenue
Madison, WI 53706
(608) 263-2289
Fax 265-6425
Ross Bender
Jun 9, 2009, 10:01:23 PM6/9/09
to pm...@googlegroups.com
It should be kept in mind that Hachiman was and is a Shinto deity and that while the kami manifests in various guises fundamentally Hachiman is a kami. The Tamukeyama Hachiman shrine to the east of Todaiji is not as well-known as it might be, but it is the guardian deity of Todaiji and the Daibutsu. Although its present location dates from 1237, it is the heir of the shrine built when Hachiman came to Nara in Tempyo Hoji 1.
Although I have never had the opportunity to attend, the shrine festival is the Tegai-e, often held in the beginning of October, and I believe that that occasion is the only time the Sogyo Hachiman in the Hachiman-den on the Todaiji grounds is available for viewing. If someone has more information about this ritual, I'd be very happy to know.
The shrine itself should not be missed although often is when visiting Nara. Some recent photos are at:
http://rossbender.org/tamukeyama1.html
--
Ross Bender
http://rossbender.org
Although I have never had the opportunity to attend, the shrine festival is the Tegai-e, often held in the beginning of October, and I believe that that occasion is the only time the Sogyo Hachiman in the Hachiman-den on the Todaiji grounds is available for viewing. If someone has more information about this ritual, I'd be very happy to know.
The shrine itself should not be missed although often is when visiting Nara. Some recent photos are at:
http://rossbender.org/tamukeyama1.html
--
Ross Bender
http://rossbender.org
Mark Schumacher
Jun 10, 2009, 7:46:24 AM6/10/09
to pm...@googlegroups.com
Hi Everyone,
I have taken the PMJS debate on Hachiman to heart.,
and have rewritten my entire HACHIMAN page.
VITRUAL TOUR.
SEE 18 PHOTOS OF HACHIMAN AS MONK & RELATED DEITIES
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/tsurugaoka-hachiman.shtml
** the original page was weak; the new page is strong **
I'm sitting atop mountains of books, including
exhibition catalogs, temple brochures, and many
other resources on Buddhist statuary in Japan. It
appears that Yakushiji Temple is the source of the
translation "in the guise of," which has been copied
countless times for images of Hachiman in the form
of a monk. I have changed all references to "in the
form of a monk."
sincerely, mark schumacher
Ross Bender さんは書きました:
I have taken the PMJS debate on Hachiman to heart.,
and have rewritten my entire HACHIMAN page.
VITRUAL TOUR.
SEE 18 PHOTOS OF HACHIMAN AS MONK & RELATED DEITIES
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/tsurugaoka-hachiman.shtml
** the original page was weak; the new page is strong **
I'm sitting atop mountains of books, including
exhibition catalogs, temple brochures, and many
other resources on Buddhist statuary in Japan. It
appears that Yakushiji Temple is the source of the
translation "in the guise of," which has been copied
countless times for images of Hachiman in the form
of a monk. I have changed all references to "in the
form of a monk."
sincerely, mark schumacher
Ross Bender さんは書きました:
Ross Bender
Jun 10, 2009, 9:48:01 AM6/10/09
to pm...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for the remarkable assemblage of photos. Christine Guth Kanda's excellent book (Shinzou: Hachiman Imagery and Its Development, Harvard UP, 1985) discusses and reproduces many of these images, but there are some on your page I had never seen before. The Todaiji Hachiman is the most famous, but even the Boston Museum of Fine Arts posesses one.
BTW, the Taiga-e of Tamukeyama Hachiman is held on October 5. I may be mistaken as to whether the Todaiji Hachiman is available for viewing at that time. There is also a Buddhist rite at the Hachiman-den at Todaiji on November 14, the Kenja-e, commemorating a Kegon founder, Kenja Daishi, but that the image is open to the public seems unlikely.
BTW, the Taiga-e of Tamukeyama Hachiman is held on October 5. I may be mistaken as to whether the Todaiji Hachiman is available for viewing at that time. There is also a Buddhist rite at the Hachiman-den at Todaiji on November 14, the Kenja-e, commemorating a Kegon founder, Kenja Daishi, but that the image is open to the public seems unlikely.
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