Plover and steno for multiple languages (English and French)

[Quentin Lebastard]

Hello,

I'm interested in learning steno.

However I use my computer to write roughly half the time in French and half the time in English.

I've found a github project for french language (https://github.com/azizyemloul/plover-france), but it's a different keyboard layout than the english one.

With specifics for the accents and such.

I don't want to learn two different layouts though. Is there any way to write in English and French with the same keyboard layout ?

Thanks

Best regards

[Vicente Mendoza]

Hi there,

I'm in the same scenario. I use Case Catalyst to write English Steno, but I have started writing a Spanish dictionary with Plover. I still have a far way to go with the Spanish dictionary since I've just started.  

You can modify dictionary entries to be whatever you want them to be. I kept the same English Steno keyboard, but modified the last four letters and the vowels to be what I need them to be for Spanish keeping the same English Steno keyboard. See Stanley stenographer's website and Plover Open Steno dictionaries and there's a French dictionary on the Plover dictionaries Aziz Yemoloul French dictionary.   Always think out of the box and you will find a solution for what you are trying to accomplish. 

Vicente Mendoza

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[Ted Morin]

There are three ways to accomplish multilingual/multicontext writing in Plover (in my opinion). The first two require Plover 4, which is still in development (but highly recommended if you are okay with having to remake your config sometimes between updates)

System plugins

“System” plugins basically swap out the entire rules that dictate the steno-part of Plover. You can change the literal layout of the keys, rename keys, and each system has its own, separate list of dictionaries from the other systems.

Example: https://github.com/benoit-pierre/plover_michela Michela, an Italian phonetic theory used by the Italian parliament. It’s written on a piano-like machine.

There’s also a plugin to enable switching the active system from a steno stroke: https://github.com/nsmarkop/plover_system_switcher

Hot swapping dictionaries

If you’re lucky enough to be writing a language that’s similar enough to English to share a system with English, great! You can just define your second-language in a separate dictionary, though you might need to override some erroneous application of orthographic rules in that language’s dictionary. Then, you can enable/disable the language dictionary with a stroke using this plugin: https://github.com/KoiOates/plover_dict_commands

Sharing the namespace

This is probably the least likely scenario, but I’d like to mention it: you can map your second language to unused strokes from your first language. This is less applicable for a real language, but it’s how I program with the steno machine. I have my own “subsystem” that I use in order to support, say, function definitions in python, JavaScript, etc.

French

So—back to French. This is my second language (je suis canadien)! I’m actually really interested in getting it working in Plover, and I have access to documentation on a workable theory that uses the Ireland layout (the same one that Plover uses by default). As for Grandjean, I haven’t found a realtime (conflict-free) dictionary or learning resource so I’ve tabled that completely.

Where I’m running into issues is with conjugation. There’s another member from France here that pointed out that we need some kind of intelligent conjugation tools in Plover in order to reduce strain for the stenographer. In the theory book I have access to, I assumed that they explicitly defined grammar like so:

• TU: tu
• A: a
• TU/A: tu as

This works… to a point. The counterexample provided to me was: « Toi qui peux envisager la difficulté d’un tel travail ne le situes donc pas parmi les tâches impossibles ? »

Notice “situes”.

I believe it would be incredibly useful to pave the path on how to incorporate grammar into systems, and whatever solution is developed can’t just be a static analyzer because steno will come out in realtime… there’s a limit to how far back you can go without disrupting the user, and in some ways the user can help you out (maybe by explicitly adding S’s or ^ent’s where appropriate).

Anyways, all that to say, French is probably one of the most promising systems available for writing bilingual because there’s a fully developed theory in use by hundreds of stenographers in Québec.

I believe Spanish is up there, as Stanley Sakai has developed a system for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGZ43TID9jU

And on the other side of things, I believe one of the more prominent Michela users is developing an English dictionary for bilingual writing.

If you are interested in checking out the available systems, I’ve started to compile a list here: https://github.com/openstenoproject/plover/wiki/Chorded-Systems

If someone out there has ideas on how to solve the grammar issues (I think I've heard some mumblings about it on the #multilingual channel on the Plover Discord), please get in touch.

Ted

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[Mikein cousa]

I barely know the essence of the Plover program, and only have a minimal grasp of English and French and Arabic phonetics, I have looked at phonetics of  several others casually. English as my native language.

This question led a search "Plover International Phonetic Aalphabet"

Google returns Rethinking the Stenotype (very long) - Google Groups

At at a very naive level it seems to me that an IPA keyboard could work across languages, but of course that would require another design effort and even more complex internalization of chords?

I invite your thoughts on this idea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet

[Quentin Lebastard]

Hello,

Thanks for this detailed answer (merci !)

From what I gather, I can still use the default steno layout in French - which for me is perfect - only one layout to learn !

I'll take a look at your github, and start to learn the letters.

Then when I start to become familiar with steno (might take some time !) maybe I'll come back and try to help with those grammar issues.

So, thanks everyone for your kind answers, and have a great day.

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[Mikein cousa]

Thinking about all this conceptually a bit more....

Given the rich and detailed phonetic alphabet in the IPA (with extensions for special cases such as speech impediments) it strikes me that all steno falls short in situations for very high accuracy. I will need to dig deeper into steno and Plover to confirm that thought.  Right now given this I think I am going to be resistant to investing a lot of time into the massive learning tasks inherent in the Plover dictionaries and complex chord structures.

If you want to have a first look I am recalling several on-line transcription tools and a Window keyboard layout. FYI. I found both very difficult to use and get even a basic sense of rhythm, but I did not invest a lot of time in these efforts.

One example is the sound systems in FR. I looked at this topic briefly a few years ago. If you have an interest in my citations and initial research please feel free to send me a direct email to the address i use here. Also I can refer you to some works on human phonetics. They all speak to the universality of human speech sounds.