New laptop with 30 key rollover

[Omar Hughes]

Wondering if this will work:

https://www.asus.com/Notebooks/ROG-G752VS/

Are there any other laptops on the market with this?

[Mirabai Knight]

That is extremely exciting!!! I hope it's true. If so, I will buy the HECK out of that laptop. Fingers crossed! I've never heard of a laptop with any kind of antighosting or more than 6-key rollover before!!!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Plover" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ploversteno+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Mirabai Knight, CRC, RDR
StenoKnight CART Services
917 576 4989
m...@stenoknight.com
http://stenoknight.com

[Jason Woofenden]

Looks like a real thing :)

You can buy it from Amazon if you prefer: http://a.co/e0Vo6W2

--
Jason

> That is extremely exciting!!! I hope it's true. If so, I will buy the
> HECK out of that laptop. Fingers crossed! I've never heard of a
> laptop with any kind of antighosting or more than 6-key rollover
> before!!!
>
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 6:51 PM, Omar Hughes <naom...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Wondering if this will work:
> >

> > [1]https://www.asus.com/Notebooks/ROG-G752VS/

> >
> > Are there any other laptops on the market with this?
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Plover" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> > send an email to [2]ploversteno...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit [3]https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

>
> --
> Mirabai Knight, CRC, RDR
> StenoKnight CART Services
> 917 576 4989
> m...@stenoknight.com
> http://stenoknight.com
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Plover" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to ploversteno...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

> References
>
> 1. https://www.asus.com/Notebooks/ROG-G752VS/
> 2. mailto:ploversteno...@googlegroups.com
> 3. https://groups.google.com/d/optout

[Ted Morin]

Probably wise to try it in store to make sure it doesn't fail with steno-like combos.

On Jan 16, 2017 11:42 PM, "Jason Woofenden" <ja...@jasonwoof.com> wrote:

Looks like a real thing :)

You can buy it from Amazon if you prefer: http://a.co/e0Vo6W2

--
Jason

> That is extremely exciting!!! I hope it's true. If so, I will buy the
> HECK out of that laptop. Fingers crossed! I've never heard of a
> laptop with any kind of antighosting or more than 6-key rollover
> before!!!
>
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 6:51 PM, Omar Hughes <naom...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Wondering if this will work:
> >
> > [1]https://www.asus.com/Notebooks/ROG-G752VS/
> >
> > Are there any other laptops on the market with this?
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Plover" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> > send an email to [2]ploversteno+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

> > For more options, visit [3]https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
> Mirabai Knight, CRC, RDR
> StenoKnight CART Services
> 917 576 4989
> m...@stenoknight.com
> http://stenoknight.com
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Plover" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to ploversteno+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> References
>
> 1. https://www.asus.com/Notebooks/ROG-G752VS/

> 2. mailto:ploversteno+unsub...@googlegroups.com
> 3. https://groups.google.com/d/optout

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Plover" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ploversteno+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Omar Hughes]

On top of it you have a VR ready laptop!

I might be able to find one somewhere (I think I saw one at demo in one of the malls here in UAE). 

I don't know how to use steno yet but I'm extremely interested in learning this skill. 

Could you give me some instructions in the event that I or anyone else that happens to come across one, can determine if it's suitable?

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 10:13:34 AM UTC+4, Ted Morin wrote:

Probably wise to try it in store to make sure it doesn't fail with steno-like combos.

On Jan 16, 2017 11:42 PM, "Jason Woofenden" <ja...@jasonwoof.com> wrote:

Looks like a real thing :)

You can buy it from Amazon if you prefer: http://a.co/e0Vo6W2

--
Jason

> That is extremely exciting!!! I hope it's true. If so, I will buy the
> HECK out of that laptop. Fingers crossed! I've never heard of a
> laptop with any kind of antighosting or more than 6-key rollover
> before!!!
>
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 6:51 PM, Omar Hughes <naom...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Wondering if this will work:
> >
> > [1]https://www.asus.com/Notebooks/ROG-G752VS/
> >
> > Are there any other laptops on the market with this?
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Plover" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> > send an email to [2]ploversteno...@googlegroups.com.

> > For more options, visit [3]https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
> Mirabai Knight, CRC, RDR
> StenoKnight CART Services
> 917 576 4989
> m...@stenoknight.com
> http://stenoknight.com
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Plover" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to ploversteno...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> References
>
> 1. https://www.asus.com/Notebooks/ROG-G752VS/
> 2. mailto:ploversteno+unsub...@googlegroups.com
> 3. https://groups.google.com/d/optout

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Plover" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ploversteno...@googlegroups.com.

[paulo paniago]

 

Hello Mirabai,

my advice is that you don’t spend all that money in this laptop yet. A believe you are so passionate about plover that you would be able to do it just to test its steno compatibility. But at that price level, I’m afraid you would be disappointed at how few people followed, even saying they were so excited too, and was willing to pay anything for a laptop with n-key rollover.

 

I saw someone mentioning a gaming laptop in this forum a while ago that had n-key rollover and could perhaps be used with plover. After some digging I believe they were talking about this laptop:

 

https://www.msi.com/news/detail/3wyHmLjBeJQh_iVP1g1WpZ6tHS_2dcF8NIXUqApIK69GR3dgWmnX1DSaAv-d7KgDmjIOcUqX5wfWhkree3uQRw~~

 

 

But at 3,500 dollars and weighting more than 10 pounds, I’m not surprised they didn’t seam very excited at that discussion. And I got to say, I didn’t liked it very much either. Even if I had that kind of money, I felt it was huge, and probably not very comfortable to use it on the lap since it’s qwerty keys where placed in the left side instead of the middle of the keyboard, with the number pad and a touch-pad at the right.

About this Asus gaming laptop I confess that I’m not so excited either. I guess it would be a good option for the professional stenographer that, instead of buying another laptop, would have a backup machine in their own notebook in case anything goes wrong with their main device. Or, on the other hand, for the plover user who already like games. This way he would have both in one, a steno enabled laptop and a supposedly top performance gaming laptop.

But, personally, if I were to spend at 3.000 to 2.700 dollars on steno equipment, I would stay with my lighter not so expensive laptop and buy a professional steno machine, perhaps one of those from stenovations that could easily fit in my bag.

Also, I might be wrong, but I didn’t found much information on that page about its keyboard, and from the images, it doesn’t seam to me that they would be mechanical switches. It looks like they made a membrane keyboard to cut costs or weight/size or put in some mechanical switches with very short travel (2.5mm). In any case, it would probably not be very friendly for beginners and I guess this laptop, when closed, wouldn’t have space between the upper and lower part to accept putting steno keycaps.

So, in my opinion, it seams very expensive for an enhanced gaming performance that most ploverers wouldn’t care about with a, perhaps, steno enabled keyboard that might not be so great. 

 The optimistic side I see about this, is that n-key rollover laptops seams to be beginning to appear. If it is being produced by a popular brand as Asus, instead of a niche specific one, that means it is highly probable that others will follow. And maybe soon enough we will have a lighter, cheaper and better option for steno typing.  

 

 

[paulo paniago]

Oh, I’m sorry, this Asus laptop is 2,545 dollars in that page from amazon and not the 2,700 to 3,000 dollars I’ve mentioned above. But still too expensive in my opinion… big and heavy also 17.3 inches with 9 pounds.

 

[Omar Hughes]

That's not the only one that Asus shows having rollover.

https://www.asus.com/Notebooks/ROG-GL502VM-7th-Gen-Intel-Core/overview/

This one weighs 2.2kg and can get it for just $1299

 https://www.amazon.com/15-6-inch-G-SYNC-2-6GHz-GL502VM-GeForce/dp/B01KB0WJ1G

[Andrew Martin]

I don't see the big deal tbh. If it's just for steno, it's not that hard to take a usb nkro keyboard with you, then you can choose whatever laptop you want and not be limited to only "gaming" ones with the unnecessary GPU, added weight, and associated pricetag.

I would spend the money saved on an Ergodox or Stenoboard or whatever, and end up with a much more usable setup for cheap.

But I guess it's not all in the one box then.

Andrew

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Plover" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ploversteno+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[paulo paniago]

 

 “This one weighs 2.2kg and can get it for just $1299”

 

Now I am excited!!!!

If anybody has the chance to try one of these at a store, I believe it is not difficult to test its anti-ghosting capabilities. If I remember correctly, Mirabai did something like this to test the SideWinder when it first arrived:

all you have to do is press those main 20 keys that correspond to the ones we use in steno for the vowels and consonants all at once (qawsedrfcvnmujikolp;). Try it a few times and if they all register, consistently 20 letters, independent on the order, than the keyboard will probably work for Plover.

[paulo paniago]

 

 “But I guess it's not all in the one box then.”

 Yes, but that is actually a strong advantage if you have to frequently use the notebook on your lap while waiting for an appointment or traveling in a train (“metrô” those urban trains, don’t remember the word in English).

[paulo paniago]

 

I’ve been researching this page again, about the $1299 Asus, as I’ve been for a long time eager to get a steno laptop, but looking at that keyboard I think it unfortunately might not work well for steno.

The keys in this one have even smaller travel than the more expensive Asus and if you look at them, you can see that they were designed aesthetically similar to Apple’s keyboards, with square keys and a solid space in between them.

And it is there where I see the problem. The keys doesn’t touch each other and it would probably be difficult to press two keys at the same time, by just pressing the gap between them. There would only be 1.8mm travel to actuate them with the keyboard case blocking your finger.

 

[Andrew Martin]

Yes, I absolutely hate chiclet keyboards. Mushy little islands. You're right, they would be unusable for steno.

There are online nkro testing websites. If you want to test the laptop, you can open the browser to one of those and hold down as many keys as you can.

Andrew

 

--

[paulo paniago]

 

Yes, “unusable” is probably a better word. If it was an external keyboard, than some specially designed keycaps could potentially solve that problem, but than again, steno keycaps probably wouldn’t fit inside this thin closed laptop.

[Ted Morin]

The question of an NKRO laptop has been in the back of my mind since this thread came up, and I decided this morning to look into it.

I’ve noticed a few things…

• All the laptops on the market seem to use the same “30-key rollover” design. It’s not verified whether or not this works with Plover.
• There are some laptops (looking at you Lenovo) that claim “anti-ghosting (up to three keys)”, so watch out.
• Apparently the MSI anti-ghosting is not very good.
• Asus and Gigabyte (and their Aorus) are the only laptop manufacturers that claim 30-key rollover, probably using the same parts.
• Only Asus has a 15.6” screen, the others are all 17” with this feature.
• The options for 15” are GL502 and GL553.
• The GL553 is the cheaper option as it has a lower-tier graphics card.

Looking at $1,000 to $2,500 depending on which model and how you configure it.

Some thoughts I have about these laptops:

• They look dumb, unfortunately.
• Their battery life is reviewed rather poorly (2-4 hours).
• I bet with thin hard material you could make the chiclet keyboard more steno-friendly.

I think my dream machine would be an ultrabook with NKRO for stenoing on the go.

The Razer Blade Stealth has the right form factor and claims “anti-ghosting” but no claim on the number of keys leaves me doubtful about its viability.

The other route I’m thinking of would be Clevo or other customizable laptops, maybe contacting that sort of company and asking about getting an NKRO option for purchase would be a good start.

And yes, while the Stenomod and SOFT/HRUF are great options for cheap steno hardware, it doesn't discount the fact that sometimes you can't bring things with you. For example, perhaps if I'm going to a cottage for a weekend I'll just bring a laptop, and it would be pretty cool to be able to steno with that on the go, or just stenoing on your lap while lying on the couch.

​

On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 7:32 AM, paulo paniago <ppani...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Yes, “unusable” is probably a better word. If it was an external keyboard, than some specially designed keycaps could potentially solve that problem, but than again, steno keycaps probably wouldn’t fit inside this thin closed laptop.

--

[paulo paniago]

 

Nice thoughts Ted, I am always impressed at how clear you can see things. Judging by the way you put it, it seams to me that a steno enabled laptop that is good enough to worth its cost is yet to come, but if anyone is willing to try that:

 “I bet with thin hard material you could make the chiclet keyboard more steno-friendly”,

 I would be very interested to see how it goes…

[Ted Morin]

Tonight I visited Best Buy and took a look at some of their display models. In short: success!

The Asus laptops definitely have enough NKRO for Plover:

The keyboard itself has a little give -- the machine's case bends as you press into it. Pictured is the 17" version but the 15" version with both RGB and just plain old red backlighting both worked with NKRO. The cheapest was $999CAD which is relatively low.

I found another keyboard which seemed to support NKRO on certain Alienware machines. The AW15R3 was *much* more expensive but had a better-feeling keyboard for steno because it wasn't chiclet. The chiclet ones on the Asus would definitely need some material to make pressing two keys easier (TK, PW, AO, etc.) but on the Alienware it wasn't too bad. Unfortunately these ran for $2000+.

Finally, I didn't get the chance to try a Razer Blade (there were none present) but I did message some poor soul on the local classifieds and got him to run a test for me. While he didn't try the full steno layout like I had the chance to, he did confirm that ASDF CV NM JKL; worked, which is really promising.

I'll pursue this Razer further and see how it feels.

Lookin' good.

[Ted Morin]

The Razer does not have NKRO :(

But the feel of that laptop is fantastic. Such a shame.

--

[Ted Morin]

Okay, here's my list of NKRO laptops. I'm going to skip the 17" displays as at that point you may as well be using an external keyboard (Gigabyte and Aorus options are only in 17").

Alienware 13, $1,000 ($1,100 for a good screen)

Alienware 15, $1,200

The Alienwares can quickly increase price as you customize RAM, screen, video card, and hard disk. I'm talking $2,000 to $3,000.

Asus GL502 (15") $1,000+

Asus GL553 (15") $1,000+

The Alienware keyboards are nicer-feeling for steno purposes, and probably don't need any modifications to hit two keys at once. However, the form factor on the Alienware 13" is kind of awful. It's really big due to its gaming intentions, but it is the smallest option listed in this email. The weight of the GL553 is the same as the Alienware 13.

To use the Asus for Plover, you'd probably want to create a "bridge" between pairs of keys that you could hit.

As for me... I'm not sure I'd want any of these options. I want an ultralight like the Macbook, Razer Blade, Lenovo Yoga, or Asus Zen, but these options definitely lack NKRO.

Next step: touch sensitive wireless paper-thin steno machine to put on the palm rests? I don't know :O

[Steven Tammen]

What I'm planning on doing long term (once I get up to acceptable steno speeds) is carrying around something like Scott's second version of the SOFT/HRUF (split, tentable, steno machine) with a Microsoft Surface. Ever since I got my Kinesis Advantage for non-steno typing, I haven't been able to stand my laptop's keyboard. Having a daily driver keyboard/stenotype plus tablet just seems to make so much more sense than a laptop with a shoddy keyboard. (Even now, something like a mid-range Surface Pro 4 + Planck/SOFT HRUF/Stenomod is on par price wise with what you guys are discussing).

Bonus points if someone CADs up a portable stand to attach the tablet and input device to, or jury rigs a camera tripod for the same purpose. Think Infinity Ergonomic stand but open source. I've been dreaming of having something like this in college lectures for a while now.

Just my 2c

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ploversteno...@googlegroups.com.

[Mirabai Knight]

I use a Surface pro 4 with my StenoMod. Turn the type keyboard upside down and attach it to the Surface with its magnets: Now you've got a flat plane to rest the steno machine on, and because the type keyboard is upside down, even though the magnets are holding it in place, it doesn't connect, so there are no errant qwerty keypresses. Works quite well! 

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ploversteno+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Steven Tammen]

I'm too cheap to buy the type keyboard if I'm only going to use it as a stand, haha. 

Assuming you have a desk/table of roughly the right height, just using the tablet's stand to prop it up and placing the stenotype on the desk/table works fine short term, but it would be best to have something with the screen more towards eye level and the stenotype more towards lap level to improve posture and minimize muscle tension. I have a system a set up at home where I have the proper ergonomic angles, but I've never figured out a good way to make it portable (hence the stand idea).

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Plover" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/ploversteno/Xj-7gv16_1k/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to ploversteno+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Ted Morin]

As a follow-up on Razer, I emailed them a few times about NKRO being a useful feature, to no real result other than "we'll share your feedback with the engineering team".

Not sure if it's coincidence, but I tried the new Razer Blade Stealth (2018, 8th-gen i7) in-store and it has what appears to be 14-key rollover (up from previous generations which had certain combinations of 4 keys failing!), which I think is good enough for steno 👍

I'd wager that the other 2018 Razer Blade (14", 15", and Pro 17") also have similar rollover, but the Stealth is probably the best version for what I'm looking for (longish battery life, extreme portability). The only downside is that the little ridges between the chiclet keys make it hard to produce combinations like "AO" and "EU", but I think that could be alleviated with some well-placed material on the keyboard. I'd probably try bridging the gap stuff that pressing on the crack would push both neighboring keys down…

Finally, I've added it to my list of NKRO laptops on the wiki and compared to other offerings, it has the smallest screen size and weighs 3 lbs compared with the next lightest offering, the Gigabyte Aero 15 at 4.6 lbs.