Profitable Plot

[Falange]

Have you guys heard a Company called Profitable Groups? They just
started their business in Hong Kong and some of my family and fds
bought a polot of land in England and paying a lot of money. The
company is new, and i am not sure am i falling in a trap or not. You
have any idea? People seem to believe everything....would you mind
helping me by replying this email? Thanks a lot!

[nicky]

Would be very careful with any land deals now. Can you get any of the
names of people running and have them checked out in the UK. Altho
saying this the brains behind the scam I fell into kept his name out
of the business. If in doubt..steer clear!

[kevtan]

The company started as Profitable Plot Limited Company based in the
UK. They later closed the UK operations in the last quarter of 2006
because of problems with the FSA (Financial Services Authority) which
oversees all CIS (Collective Investment Scheme) businesses in the
country. They transferred everything to a new company Profitable
Plots Pte Ltd based in Singapore. They have made the Singapore office
as their HQ since then and have recently ventured into other more
conventional real estate products and shorter terms land-linked
financial instruments. The Profitable Group was recently formed as an
umbrella company for the various PP companies in Malaysia, Singpapore,
the Philippines, Thailand, Canada, Indonesia and Hongkong. I am not
sure whether it is actually a separate legal entity, like a holding
company registered somewhere.

I signed up for 10 plots of their Concorde Village/Hounslow Star
Programme in Kuala Lumpur in July 2006 and converted that into 11
regular plots around July 2007, i.e. I am holding 11 plots to-date. I
did the conversion because I was impressed with the progress achieved
for the Hounslow project. (The progress documentations are in their
Client Portal, ask your relative who bought the plots to show you.)
But please note that this is a long-term (3 ot 10 years?) investment.
Besides that, unless you are familiar with UK land laws, the risk
could be significant and nothing is sure. Your must have the right
risk appetite for this kind of investment. Of course, as in all
investments, you must do your own due diligence and avoid being
scammed. As you can see from the many online forums, there are indeed
a lot of land scams around.

[kevtan]

Hi Falange,
I replied yesterday but it seemed that my reply was lost in transit!
I will make another try here.

The company started as the Profitable Plot Company Limited based in
the UK, London a few years ago. It closed its London's office and
transferred everything to another company Profitable Plots Pte Ltd
based in Singapore in the last quarter of 2006. Since then they have
made their Singapore branch the HQ and they have also ventured into
more conventional real estate products and other shorter term land-
linked financial instruments (see the www.ProfitableGroup.com website
for more details). The main reason for moving to Singapore in 2006 I
think was that the company was having problems with the FSA (Financial
Services Authority), which oversees and regulates CIS (Collective
Investment Scheme) businessess in the UK. Many so-called UK land-
banking companies were forced to liquidate by the UK authorities the
last 2 years.

The Profitable Group was recently publicised as the umbrella company
for the various PP companies in Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, the
Philippines, Canada, Indonesia, Brunei and Hong Kong. I am not sure
whether PG is an actual legal entity (i.e. a holding company
registered somewhere) or just a loosely used marketing brandname.

I purchased 2 units of their Star Programme for Concorde Village/
Hounslow project (equivalent to 8-10 regular plots) around July 2006.
Later in July 2007, I converted the 2 units Star Programme to 11
regular plots which I am still holding to-date. The reason I opted
for the conversion to the regular plots instead of redeeming the 2
Star Programme units was that I was impressed with the planning
progress achieved for the Hounslow project. Detalied progress
documentation is available online in PP's Client Portal, so please ask
your relative who has bought the plots to show you if necessary.

PP's plots are long-term (3-10 year?) investments and the risk can be
significant as planning approval is not guaranteed. Do you have the
right risk appetite for this kind of investment? If not, better stay
away from it - peace of mind. As in all investments, we have to do
our own due diligence (e.g. land title check, land status, suitability
of land for development, fair valuation, legality of the product,
reputation of the company and its directors/parties involved,
existence of conflict of interests, protection in the contract for
plot owners etc etc), and avoid being scammed. As you can see from
the many online forums on land-banking investment, there are indeed
many land scams around.

On Apr 16, 6:10 pm, Falange <Falange.r...@gmail.com> wrote:

[PropertySCAM]

We have allowed kevtan's posts to stand because, although he appears
to be a PP insider, his posts raise important questions and then fail
to answer them. We still suggest that potential investors undertake
comprehensive due diligence and don't simply take PP's word for it or,
for that matter, the word of an an anonymous poster at Google Groups.

[kevtan]

Dear PropertSCAM,
I am not a PP insider, more a potential victim of some ingenious land-
banking scam if things don't turn out right or an astute investor if
things are well. Only time will tell. I fully agree with you that
all potential investors should never take anyone's word for it.

On the personal side, as I have already invested my money in one of
PP's product, i.e. the Hounslow project, and there is no easy exit
arrangement for me now, my only re-assurance is to carry out on-going
due diligence and to follow-up closely on any new developments. That
is the main reason I join online forum like this one. Anyway, if
there is anyone who wants to clarify, share or discuss anything
regarding PP's Hounslow project (I have little interest in their other
projects/products), I am more than happy to participate.

> > > helping me by replying this email? Thanks a lot!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[mengHup]

>>> I was impressed with the planning
> > > progress achieved for the Hounslow project.

KevTan

I would see the following as the independent indicators show
little or no chance of a profitable event ever happening with any
Profitable Plots land.

1: Profitable Plots have not to date been successful in getting
planning permission approved at any of the 4 sites they mention on the
Profitable Group web site - Nafferton, Spring Grove, Cherry Tree
Grove, Hounslow.
2: Their planning consultants are not independent, they sit on the
board of profitable group
3: A hounslow land plot without planning permission is already marked
up 15 times on its purchase price of 347 pounds
4: The Hounslow local authority has made clear statements that the
land will not get planning permission.
5: The Profitable Group expert planning consultants (DLP) either
failed to spot, or failed to identify to investors a basic covenant on
Profitable Group land (google cherry tree grove colchester and look at
the planning application) - why do you believe they have any
credibility to advise on the potential of Concorde Village ?
6: They have some pretty dodgy looking offers like "AAA" investments
which give guaranteed returns looking much like ponzi schemes
7: They were forced to close down in the UK and had to refund to UK
investors
8: They make no reference to negative local planning statements in any
of their marketing material.

On that basis can you summarise for those of us who dont have access
to the portal what "progess" you think has been made ?
Are you offering hidden magic secrets that can only be revealed by
buying the product - a tactic more often used by cults and
scams ?
Revealing true positive information would surely only drive the value
of the investment land up and increase confidence in the Profitable
Group ? Why not reveal this secret you have ?

There are those of us who suspect that the reason for the "portal" is
to both control the information flow to you and try and sell you more
of the same without it being questioned. I would like to know how
often they try and upsell portal members into other projects and
products.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[kevtan]

Hi mengHup,

There are quite a number of associated documents for each project in
the PP Client Portal. For Concorde Village/Hounslow, there are about
17 associated documents. I called my Client Service manager in Kuala
Lumpur whether the information in the Client Portal was confidential
and he said no but PP would prefer not to overload potential clients
or interested parties with too much technical information. That was
their reason for not making the information public.

For our interest here in this forum, and since you have asked for it,
I will provide a link to a pdf document published last year on
Hounslow by Mott MacDonald, a company specialises in geo-environmental
study. As it would not be appropriate for me to provide a direct link
to PP Client Portal, I have downloaded a copy of the report to another
website for this purpose. Besides that, I will also provide the
latest update report ( 28 April 2008) from PP on the same project.
However, I would like to highlight here that I am providing this
information in good faith strictly for discussion by members of this
group, with no intention whatsoever for any personal gains in
promoting or campaigning against PP's or any other parties' product,
and I should not be held liable for any direct or indirect loss
suffered by anyone as a result of using or relying on the information
provided here. From a personal standpoint, as PP Hounslow plot owner,
I do not want to see anything negative arising from my own action.

Here you go:

"Latest Report from DLP Consultants:

A Stage 2 ecological study is underway following the recommendations
of the first Mott Macdonald study last year. It should be completed
in June.

Chelgate have identified key stakeholders and have begun a series of
lobby meetings. As part of this process DLP Design have revisited the
Master Plan, taking into account the constraints plan prepared by Mott
MacDonald following completion of the Geo Environmental Study at the
close of 2007.

We have also asked Chelgate to give some thought to investigating the
mood of the Sibson community who would be displaced by the proposed
Third Runway with a view to devising a strategy to relocate the
community to Concorde Village.

We have been tracking an application at the nearby Industrial Estate.
In brief, it proposes redevelopment of the existing industrial,
storage and related uses to provide up to 5000 sq m of new B1c/B2 use
and 23,000 sq m of B8 warehousing.

Following GLA Members’ indication of approval Hounslow Members also
voted to approve, contrary to their Officers’ recommendations at the
West Area Committee (Planning) on 7 December 2006, and the Sustainable
Development Committee on 30 April 2007. the Committees asked officers
to negotiate a Section 106 package, and the application returned to
Planning Committee in June and the Sustainable Development Committee
on 9 July 2007. Both resolved to support it. It was then advertised
as a departure to the Secretary of State resulting in a call- in.
there will now be a public inquiry set for 24th June

We have been investigating education requirements and provision with a
view to determining the need for a primary school – update report to
be provided if possible.

To assist Chelgate with stakeholder consultations a series of
alternative Master Plans has been developed showing 100% residential
and a variety of mixed use and employment alternatives. "

Here's the link to Mott MacDonald study done last year:
http://www.whatlifestyle.com/hounslow/PhaseIIReport.pdf (4.4MB)

[JamesLea]

Hi KevTan

What is your opinion now especially after all the UK bad press around
the 5000 UKLI plots , and also the failure of the Profitable Plots
Cherry Tree Grove Site to get planning permission ?
This site shows all the many reports submitted for PP Cherry Tree
Grove

http://www.planning.colchester.gov.uk/WAM/findCaseFile.do?appNumber=073130

The reports made no difference as the policies were not covered.

Do you believe Concorde Village will be different and if so why ?

This press
http://www.bt.com.bn/en/local_business/2008/03/29/profitable_plots_sales_in_brunei_growing

Says 600% profit once 9000 plots sold so i guess that is what you are
looking for.
Do you still feel comfortable with your investment ? Is there any
update on the schedule for a planning application to be issued for
Concorde Village ? In fact any idea when the 9000 plots will be
sold ?

Thanks

Jim

[kevtan]

Hi Jim,

Scams and legality aside, from my point of view, the main risk in
putting our money in this kind of "investment" is that the money pool
runs out for whatever reasons before planning approval, which is not
guaranteed, is given. I can only hope that this will not happen to
PP.

While I fully sympathise with people who have invested their hard-
earned money in UKLI plots, I am not really bothered very much by all
the bad press as far as my investment in PP Concorde Village is
concerned. Neither am I surprised if they face problems in getting
planning permissions in Spring Grove, Cherry Grove or other projects,
as long as there is proof that they are making efforts in doing so.

To answer your question, I am in fact not very comfortable with my
investment in PP, but more because of some other reasons.

I am more worried about whether PP is spending the plot buyers' money
on corporate expansion and promotion, as we can see from the new
Profitable Group website and TV commercials, instead of allocating the
money to the SLPT (Strategic Land Planning Trust) for obtaining
planning approval. I am sure consultants like Mott MacDonald, DLP and
Chelgate don't come cheap. What if the SLPT runs out money?

Another worrying trend is PP always comes up with short-term
derivative products linked to the Concorde Village and asks existing
plot owners to put in more money. They call them fast-track AAA
products. I am very worried about this trend!

The progress information in the Client Portals is very summarised. To
know more, we have to go to the various websites of the local
authorities such as the one for Colchester you posted here. As for
CV, I still have not seen any applications for planning approval in
the Hounslow's website which I checked occasionally. My conlcusion is
that while there are indeed a lot of reports and master plans in the
Client Portal from the planning and geo-physical consultants, they
still have not submitted the application for planning approval to the
Hounslow Borough Council yet. They said there was supposed to be a
public enquiry regarding CV on the 24th June 2008 (see PP Group
website on CV). Was there one? So far no news from them yet.

According to my Account Manager, PP has sold out all the 9000 plots.
PP originally claimed that the ROI would be at least 338% (not 600%),
upon planning approval, not upon sale of the 9000 plots. Now they
have repriced each plot at Pounds 8,000 from the original Pounds 5,625
with possible ROI of 250% (they claimed). PP will help existing plot
owners who want to cash out to sell the plots to new buyers at the new
price for 15% commission. Those who do not want to cash out can also
invest more money in what they call fast-track AAA products linked to
CV.

I hope I have answered your questions.

Regards,
Kevin Tan

On Jun 29, 9:28 am, JamesLea <jms...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi KevTan
>
> What is  your opinion now especially after all the UK bad press around
> the 5000 UKLI plots ,  and also the failure of the Profitable Plots
> Cherry Tree Grove Site to get planning permission ?
> This site shows all the many reports submitted for PP Cherry Tree
> Grove
>

> http://www.planning.colchester.gov.uk/WAM/findCaseFile.do?appNumber=0...

>
> The reports made no difference as the policies were not covered.
>
> Do you believe Concorde Village will be different and if so why ?
>

> This presshttp://www.bt.com.bn/en/local_business/2008/03/29/profitable_plots_sa...

[JamesLea]

> I am more worried about whether PP is spending the plot buyers' money
> on corporate expansion and promotion, as we can see from the new
> Profitable Group website and TV commercials, instead of allocating the
> money to the SLPT (Strategic Land Planning Trust) for obtaining
> planning approval.  I am sure consultants like Mott MacDonald, DLP and
> Chelgate don't come cheap.  What if the SLPT runs out money?

Well if they sold all the 9000 plots they made around 47 million
pounds gross profit minus sales commissions and expenses etc.
They ought to have enough money to buy the planning department not
just advisors :-)

> Another worrying trend is PP always comes up with short-term
> derivative products linked to the Concorde Village and asks existing
> plot owners to put in more money.  They call them fast-track AAA
> products. I am very worried about this trend!

I never understood the AAA thing .
Derivatives tend to be high risk in the financial markets.
A derivative backed by a land banking product must have an
interesting risk profile.

> According to my Account Manager, PP has sold out all the 9000 plots.
> PP originally claimed that the ROI would be at least 338% (not 600%),
> upon planning approval, not upon sale of the 9000 plots.  Now they
> have repriced each plot at Pounds 8,000 from the original Pounds 5,625
> with possible ROI of 250% (they claimed).  PP will help existing plot
> owners who want to cash out to sell the plots to new buyers at the new
> price for 15% commission.  Those who do not want to cash out can also
> invest more money in what they call fast-track AAA products linked to
> CV.

You mean they have sold out the 9000 and they are now selling existng
5k client plots to new clients at 8K ?
Thats an interesting business. I wonder how many people are selling
and i wonder who is buying ?
There is a lot of money moving around here - i would think the right
place to focus it is on getting planning permission.
I have an interest in one plot and my friend and i would like to
unload it after the UKLI thing.
I will ask him to look into this.

[Adrien Richardson]

Excuse me for jumping in. I am not up to date with all the small facts, but
let me tell you a related experience.
I purchased two plots from Property Spy back in 2003 for 60,000 pounds (yes
60,000!). This was before the Hugh jump in property prices in the UK.
I tried to sell one of these plots through Property Spy's "resale"
department as early as 2004. I foolishly waited three years with e-mails and
phone calls, all the time they would re-assure me that they were marketing
the plot. As history will show they were doing absolutely nothing. More
recently, and because of this experience, I was in contact with property
Spy, who said very politely that they had "redirected" their companies
interests, and were no longer in the business of selling Plots, or anything
to do with Plots.
Because of this experience, my whole life fell apart. I am mostly through it
now, but it is a kind of "grieving" period one has to go through knowing
everything you worked for in gone.

Be smart. These companies will do absolutely anything to make you think your
funds are safe.

Adrien