[Evangelism] Bad result for Plone at Europython
Jan Ulrich Hasecke
http://ep2011.europython.eu/voting-results
On place 154 of 158: Plone, Dexterity and Diazo (talk by Laurence Rowe)
juh
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Maurizio Delmonte
Did the Plone community miss the voting for the europython program?
http://ep2011.europython.eu/voting-results
On place 154 of 158: Plone, Dexterity and Diazo (talk by Laurence Rowe)
juh
Maurizio Delmonte - [maurizio...@abstract.it]
Abstract Open Solutions [http://www.abstract.it]
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Fax: +39 081 01 12 239
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Jan Ulrich Hasecke
Hash: SHA1
On 20.04.11 09:19, Maurizio Delmonte wrote:
ears
>
> Also, I register a very low pull on pylons + pyramid (just 127 of
158), so,
> what kind of people has voted this set of sessions?
Hard to say, but I saw some tweets and facebook entries with "please
vote for my talk" though not for the Plone talk.
If there is no interest in Plone in the Python Community, then there is
also not much interest in the Europython in the Plone Community. Maybe
the drawback of having its own conference?
- --
Jan Ulrich Hasecke
DZUG e.V. (Deutschsprachige Zope User Group)
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Matt Hamilton
On 20 Apr 2011, at 08:24, Jan Ulrich Hasecke wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 20.04.11 09:19, Maurizio Delmonte wrote:
> ears
>>
>> Also, I register a very low pull on pylons + pyramid (just 127 of
> 158), so,
>> what kind of people has voted this set of sessions?
>
> Hard to say, but I saw some tweets and facebook entries with "please
> vote for my talk" though not for the Plone talk.
>
> If there is no interest in Plone in the Python Community, then there is
> also not much interest in the Europython in the Plone Community. Maybe
> the drawback of having its own conference?
This is an interesting thought. I personally have submitted talks to Europython the past few years, and either myself or colleagues have done Plone talks there. This year I'm going to Plone Conf in San Francisco, Plone Open Gardens in Sorrento, and the Plone Symposium East in the US. I didn't even have time to *think* about Europython... to be honest it was only two or three weeks ago I found out where it was even being held.
Historically Plone has had poor reception at Europython. I think this is mainly because it is not the 'cool new thing'. I mean, it is a bit boring really... we have been around a while, we have solved all the hard problems, we have a great community and we did NoSQL 10 years ago. The Plone community just get on and do things. An interesting example is that two years ago there were *loads* of talks about Django on the agenda. The following year, just one. I guess it was the new big thing then I guess people realised it wasn't that exciting, or that it didn't solve the problems they wanted to and was over-hyped. This year there are a few, but pretty much all are of something called GeoDjango, which I guess is to do with GIS.
Remember we used to have a *whole track* dedicated to Zope at Europython in the old days, then it became a 'web frameworks' track and then it disappeared completely.
I think if we want to get some more exposure at Europython then maybe we need to be extolling the virtues of some of the technology we have that is not just Plone specific, e.g. Diazo, Transmogrifier, buildout, etc.
*If* I go to Europython this year, and hoping to do the Lightning talk that I didn't get to do last year, which was 'From python to Plone in 3 minutes' in which I will do a live demo of going from a plain python 2.6 install to Plone 4 up and running in 3 minutes. Just to show how easy it is to get into Plone. I still think a lot of people are wary of Zope/Plone as it still has a bad reputation from before when it was a big monolithic thing you had to swallow whole. I'm hoping that Pyramid goes some way to helping alleviate these fears as it is taking a lot of the technology we know and trust and putting it in front of a new audience.
-Matt
--
Matt Hamilton ma...@netsight.co.uk
Netsight Internet Solutions, Ltd. Business Vision on the Internet
http://www.netsight.co.uk +44 (0)117 9090901
Web Design | Zope/Plone Development and Consulting | Co-location | Hosting
Maurizio Delmonte
On 20 Apr 2011, at 08:24, Jan Ulrich Hasecke wrote:
Historically Plone has had poor reception at Europython. I think this is mainly because it is not the 'cool new thing'. I mean, it is a bit boring really... we have been around a while, we have solved all the hard problems, we have a great community and we did NoSQL 10 years ago. The Plone community just get on and do things. An interesting example is that two years ago there were *loads* of talks about Django on the agenda. The following year, just one.
*If* I go to Europython this year, and hoping to do the Lightning talk that I didn't get to do last year, which was 'From python to Plone in 3 minutes' in which I will do a live demo of going from a plain python 2.6 install to Plone 4 up and running in 3 minutes.
I still think a lot of people are wary of Zope/Plone as it still has a bad reputation from before when it was a big monolithic thing you had to swallow whole.
I'm hoping that Pyramid goes some way to helping alleviate these fears as it is taking a lot of the technology we know and trust and putting it in front of a new audience.
Raphael Ritz
>
> On 20 Apr 2011, at 08:24, Jan Ulrich Hasecke wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 20.04.11 09:19, Maurizio Delmonte wrote:
>> ears
>>>
>>> Also, I register a very low pull on pylons + pyramid (just 127 of
>> 158), so,
>>> what kind of people has voted this set of sessions?
>>
>> Hard to say, but I saw some tweets and facebook entries with "please
>> vote for my talk" though not for the Plone talk.
>>
>> If there is no interest in Plone in the Python Community, then there is
>> also not much interest in the Europython in the Plone Community. Maybe
>> the drawback of having its own conference?
>
> This is an interesting thought. I personally have submitted talks to Europython the past few years, and either myself or colleagues have done Plone talks there. This year I'm going to Plone Conf in San Francisco, Plone Open Gardens in Sorrento, and the Plone Symposium East in the US. I didn't even have time to *think* about Europython... to be honest it was only two or three weeks ago I found out where it was even being held.
>
> Historically Plone has had poor reception at Europython.
Depends on how far back you go:
3 years ago http://ep2008.europython.eu/ it was stated upfront:
"EuroPython is an annual volunteer-run conference for the communities
around the Python programming language, including the Plone and Zope
communities."
http://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython/ has more links for the
historically interested.
In particular I like
http://lwn.net/Articles/37835/
"Guido van Rossum: State of Zope 3
=================================
I'll be representing Jim Fulton who couldn't come here. ..."
IIRC the idea to have Europython in the first place was
born at a "Zope Barbecue" in Berlin, maybe this one
http://web.archiveorange.com/archive/v/gB3ldzHkTZwqJ9dw67hz
I'm sure Martijn Faassen would know ;-)
Cheers,
Raphael
> I think this is mainly because it is not the 'cool new thing'. I mean, it is a bit boring really... we have been around a while, we have solved all the hard problems, we have a great community and we did NoSQL 10 years ago. The Plone community just get on and do things. An interesting example is that two years ago there were *loads* of talks about Django on the agenda. The following year, just one. I guess it was the new big thing then I guess people realised it wasn't that exciting, or that it didn't solve the problems they wanted to and was over-hyped. This year there are a few, but pretty much all are of something called GeoDjango, which I guess is to do with GIS.
>
> Remember we used to have a *whole track* dedicated to Zope at Europython in the old days, then it became a 'web frameworks' track and then it disappeared completely.
>
> I think if we want to get some more exposure at Europython then maybe we need to be extolling the virtues of some of the technology we have that is not just Plone specific, e.g. Diazo, Transmogrifier, buildout, etc.
>
> *If* I go to Europython this year, and hoping to do the Lightning talk that I didn't get to do last year, which was 'From python to Plone in 3 minutes' in which I will do a live demo of going from a plain python 2.6 install to Plone 4 up and running in 3 minutes. Just to show how easy it is to get into Plone. I still think a lot of people are wary of Zope/Plone as it still has a bad reputation from before when it was a big monolithic thing you had to swallow whole. I'm hoping that Pyramid goes some way to helping alleviate these fears as it is taking a lot of the technology we know and trust and putting it in front of a new audience.
>
> -Matt
>
Roberto Allende
> On 20 Apr 2011, at 08:24, Jan Ulrich Hasecke wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On 20.04.11 09:19, Maurizio Delmonte wrote:
> > ears
> >>
> >> Also, I register a very low pull on pylons + pyramid (just 127 of
> > 158), so,
> >> what kind of people has voted this set of sessions?
> >
> > Hard to say, but I saw some tweets and facebook entries with "please
> > vote for my talk" though not for the Plone talk.
> >
> > If there is no interest in Plone in the Python Community, then there is
> > also not much interest in the Europython in the Plone Community. Maybe
> > the drawback of having its own conference?
>
> This is an interesting thought. I personally have submitted talks to Europython the past few years, and either myself or colleagues have done Plone talks there. This year I'm going to Plone Conf in San Francisco, Plone Open Gardens in Sorrento, and the Plone Symposium East in the US. I didn't even have time to *think* about Europython... to be honest it was only two or three weeks ago I found out where it was even being held.
>
> Historically Plone has had poor reception at Europython. I think this is mainly because it is not the 'cool new thing'. I mean, it is a bit boring really... we have been around a while, we have solved all the hard problems, we have a great community and we did NoSQL 10 years ago. The Plone community just get on and do things. An interesting example is that two years ago there were *loads* of talks about Django on the agenda. The following year, just one. I guess it was the new big thing then I guess people realised it wasn't that exciting, or that it didn't solve the problems they wanted to and was over-hyped. This year there are a few, but pretty much all are of something called GeoDjango, which I guess is to do with GIS.
>
> Remember we used to have a *whole track* dedicated to Zope at Europython in the old days, then it became a 'web frameworks' track and then it disappeared completely.
>
> I think if we want to get some more exposure at Europython then maybe we need to be extolling the virtues of some of the technology we have that is not just Plone specific, e.g. Diazo, Transmogrifier, buildout, etc.
>
> *If* I go to Europython this year, and hoping to do the Lightning talk that I didn't get to do last year, which was 'From python to Plone in 3 minutes' in which I will do a live demo of going from a plain python 2.6 install to Plone 4 up and running in 3 minutes. Just to show how easy it is to get into Plone. I still think a lot of people are wary of Zope/Plone as it still has a bad reputation from before when it was a big monolithic thing you had to swallow whole. I'm hoping that Pyramid goes some way to helping alleviate these fears as it is taking a lot of the technology we know and trust and putting it in front of a new audience.
>
> -Matt
>
Indeed, great mail Matt.
I've a similar feeling on other free software conventions and sometimes
i think that, as a floss project evolves and matures it has to move from
python/floss conventions to business one or those oriented to simply
mortals and not for geek.
Just a quick thought.
Kind Regards
Roberto Allende
Matt Hamilton
> Indeed, great mail Matt.
>
> I've a similar feeling on other free software conventions and sometimes
> i think that, as a floss project evolves and matures it has to move from
> python/floss conventions to business one or those oriented to simply
> mortals and not for geek.
That is good timing... we were just discussing exactly that, here in
Sorrento about 5 minutes ago. We even discussed examples of particularly
'exciting' Plone technologies, such as Diazo... which even then would
probabaly not be exciting to europython-type conferences ('XSLT? what's
new?... that has existed for a decade already'). However if you were to
show the power of it to a business conference, or a general web
developer/designer conference, then it would be exciting as it puts this
technology within the reach of these mere mortals.
-Matt
Jan Ulrich Hasecke
>
>> Indeed, great mail Matt.
>>
>> I've a similar feeling on other free software conventions and sometimes
>> i think that, as a floss project evolves and matures it has to move from
>> python/floss conventions to business one or those oriented to simply
>> mortals and not for geek.
>
> That is good timing... we were just discussing exactly that, here in
> Sorrento about 5 minutes ago. We even discussed examples of particularly
> 'exciting' Plone technologies, such as Diazo... which even then would
> probabaly not be exciting to europython-type conferences ('XSLT? what's
> new?... that has existed for a decade already'). However if you were to
> show the power of it to a business conference, or a general web
> developer/designer conference, then it would be exciting as it puts this
> technology within the reach of these mere mortals.
>
You are right. With the new German Plone brochure – did you get some in
Sorrento? – we cover exactly the target group "business" and "simply
mortals" interested in content management –
But! We constantly need to attract new developers as well. And not only
new developers but new young developers with cool ideas, full of
enthusiasm and the spirit to try out new things.
If we don't get them, maturity will be the last state before decay.
juh
Matt Hamilton
> You are right. With the new German Plone brochure – did you get some in
> Sorrento? – we cover exactly the target group "business" and "simply
> mortals" interested in content management –
Yes, we did get some here. They are AMAZING! Really, really good job. Now
we need to start on translations ;)
> But! We constantly need to attract new developers as well. And not only
> new developers but new young developers with cool ideas, full of
> enthusiasm and the spirit to try out new things.
>
> If we don't get them, maturity will be the last state before decay.
This is very true. However I think what we were saying last night was that
the word 'Plone' (or 'zope') has been around for a while now, and so is (I
think) perceived by some to be not that exciting. If we want to attract
more developers then I think we need to focus on a slightly different
tactic. Maybe showing some of the new cool technologies coming up, or
focus on the community itself.... I mean who *wouldn't* want to be sat
here on a nice warm evening in Sorrento sipping whisky with such an
amazing bunch of people ;)
-Matt
Jan Ulrich Hasecke
Hash: SHA1
On 29.04.11 08:50, Matt Hamilton wrote:
> This is very true. However I think what we were saying last night
> was that the word 'Plone' (or 'zope') has been around for a while
> now, and so is (I think) perceived by some to be not that exciting.
> If we want to attract more developers then I think we need to focus
> on a slightly different tactic. Maybe showing some of the new cool
> technologies coming up, or focus on the community itself.... I mean
> who *wouldn't* want to be sat here on a nice warm evening in
> Sorrento sipping whisky with such an amazing bunch of people ;)
I envy you – though we had some weeks of pre-summer right here in Germany.
Yes, the word "Plone" is well known, but so is Python.
Things like Diazo, Dexterity and Diaphragm come and go – so I am not
sure whether it is worth the effort to market them. But sure we should
emphasize the community – I think we have some good examples of special
interest communities inside the Plone community, which are very
interesting for us.
In Germany we have a lot of interaction with universities using Plone –
I think that the same happens in the US with WebLion and others. I am
sure that in many other countries many universities use Plone and seek
contact to the broader community.
We should focus on these special interest communities. There we find the
mere mortals doing their daily work with Plone.
Have a nice sip!
juh
- --
Jan Ulrich Hasecke
DZUG e.V. (Deutschsprachige Zope User Group)
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Armin Stroß-Radschinski
Am 29.04.2011 um 08:50 schrieb Matt Hamilton:
>
>> You are right. With the new German Plone brochure – did you get
>> some in
>> Sorrento? – we cover exactly the target group "business" and
>> "simply
>> mortals" interested in content management –
>
> Yes, we did get some here. They are AMAZING! Really, really good
> job. Now
> we need to start on translations ;)
nice to hear...;-)
of course!
I think our (Plone Community) current brochures (the one Netsight did
and DZUG) perfectly match different audiences and together we address
more!)
We need more media coverage from different angles. Matching points
between messages on the joints on different channels should glue this
to form a "sovereign" umbrella to reach wider audiences.
>
>> But! We constantly need to attract new developers as well. And not
>> only
>> new developers but new young developers with cool ideas, full of
>> enthusiasm and the spirit to try out new things.
>>
>> If we don't get them, maturity will be the last state before decay.
>
> This is very true. However I think what we were saying last night
> was that
> the word 'Plone' (or 'zope') has been around for a while now, and so
> is (I
> think) perceived by some to be not that exciting. If we want to
> attract
> more developers then I think we need to focus on a slightly different
> tactic. Maybe showing some of the new cool technologies coming up, or
> focus on the community itself.... I mean who *wouldn't* want to be sat
> here on a nice warm evening in Sorrento sipping whisky with such an
> amazing bunch of people ;)
The germans have the word of "old wine in new bottles". This is not a
quality promise!
But experience makes clear that even experts taste cheap wine in brand
bottles excellent (They may not even check if it is red or white).
Typo3 is having "Phoenix" as a brand for their next evolutional step.
Buzzwords are hot air but they work well for communication where the
goal is to clamp the message to the symbol.
Apple is using the Family of "The Kings of Cats" for nearly a decade
to keep permanent "Tension" for the new.
So we have to keep Plone but make permanent "Illusion of beeing
straight ahead".
The renaming of the technologies to Diazo, Dexterity and Deco (3D) was
a cool step with aliteration as an achnor in the brains. But we missed
to throw the anchor not on our island but to fix him at the wings of a
spaceship!
So I make a suggestion to rename future minor releases after Galaxies.
To boldly go...
Lets have a strategy to Plone permanent "cool again!" (not only
shortcoming tactics)
We should not look to much after others. We need focusing our own
strenght and make this our USP because WE believe in it. Apple does NO
product/market research. They simply make a cool product for themself
and TELL and SHOW it to everyone that it works and WHY.
The WPD in Germany this year, for example, was medium successful
because we had local holidays. If we use a graphical overview over
such data for planning we can avoid this for single Events. The other
solution is to spread the local WPDs over one month to generate more
constant noise. So the failure leads to improving by review. Lets use
Plone to manage it, and tell the story LOUD.
Improving the communication quality inside our community and into the
world is the key to gain acceptance.
Armin
Chris Calloway
> Apple is using the Family of "The Kings of Cats" for nearly a decade to
> keep permanent "Tension" for the new.
And I just went to an Ubuntu release party for "Natty Narwhal" last
night, too, complete with a Narwhal cake. I don't know why, but that
cheesy stuff works even with the cool kids. Look what renaming it
"Pyramid" did for BFG. Same shit, different day. But now everybody is
talking about Pyramid and how it's not made by aliens. I'm beginning to
believe that web, uh, "solution" wars are destined to be won by the most
shamelessly self-promotional.
> So I make a suggestion to rename future minor releases after Galaxies.
> To boldly go...
Brilliant.
Although, most galaxies have names like "NGC 1369." And the limited
number of ones that do have common names are not that exciting or have
weird associations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_galaxies#List_of_named_galaxies
Maybe naming after constellations might yield better choices:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_constellations
Plone has always had release code names, including ones for the cool
kids (although I'm not sure how cool Kyuss was. :) But the code names
were pretty much only familiar to the developers.
I'm not sure when Plone 5 comes along, being so radically different from
the previous Plones, that maybe the whole thing shouldn't be renamed to
get away from all the baggage of the past. The downside is the great
investment in the Plone brand. Whatever the associations, at least the
Plone name is well known.
But I would look forward to the release of "Sagittarius" aka Plone 5. :)
Some problems... There are constellations which are already brand names:
Hercules, aforementioned Phoenix. There are some crappy constellation
names: Cancer, Lupus. "Traditional" astronomical names are
Greco-centric, ignoring that there are also long lists of both Arabic
and Chinese astronomical names.
It's possible that star names might yield an ever better pool of names:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_traditional_star_names
> The WPD in Germany this year, for example, was medium successful because
> we had local holidays. If we use a graphical overview over such data for
> planning we can avoid this for single Events. The other solution is to
> spread the local WPDs over one month to generate more constant noise. So
> the failure leads to improving by review. Lets use Plone to manage it,
> and tell the story LOUD.
It should possibly be World Plone *Month* (e.g., April), giving local
groups more latitude as to what day of the month is best for them. I
think there would be better participation from local groups if the day
itself wasn't imposed from above. It sounds good in theory to say that
people all over the world will be doing WPD all on the same day. But
only if that's actually the case.
--
Sincerely,
Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc
office: 3313 Venable Hall phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599
Maurizio Delmonte
do we think that Plone deserves a better presence at EP than last year?
Did the Plone community miss the voting for the europython program?
http://ep2011.europython.eu/voting-results
On place 154 of 158: Plone, Dexterity and Diazo (talk by Laurence Rowe)
juh
Abstract Open Solutions [http://www.abstract.it] - Tel: +39 081 06 08 213
Plone Open Garden [IT - http://goo.gl/a8y1w] [EN - http://goo.gl/ZbjTE]