On Oct 8, 2025, at 2:44 PM, Ron Baiman <rpba...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 8, 2025, at 3:55 PM, Ron Baiman <rpba...@gmail.com> wrote:
*now up on the HPAC YouTube channel*
On Oct 9, 2025, at 8:51 AM, Jan Umsonst <j.o.u...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all, that is exactly the framing that will pave the way to our extinction as it implies emission reductions are secondary as we can easily and cheaply cool the climate down so why bother with emission reductions?Framing is all!And this headline is the perfect foundation for catastrophe: "How Climate Intervention can Safely, Effectively, Quickly and inexpensively Cool the Planet"There is a reason why the experts on the earth system warn from solar radiation management as the risks are unknown...All the bestJan
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Dear Jan,
Emission reduction is secondary to climate intervention when judged against near-term risk.
In terms of radiative forcing, new emissions add roughly 0.035 W/m² of additional heating each year, whereas planetary darkening (albedo loss) is adding around 0.2 W/m². That means albedo collapse is currently causing over five times more heating than emissions.
By Pareto logic, we must focus most on the factor driving 80% of the problem, while not abandoning the other 20%. To do otherwise is to base priorities on emotion and habit rather than reason and evidence.
This is not an argument for “why bother with emission reductions.” Long-term, emissions reduction is indispensable for restoring planetary balance. But in the short-term, emissions cuts alone cannot affect tipping points; only rapid cooling interventions can.
Framing the issue in this way allows us to keep both goals intact: Intervention first, for immediate planetary survival; Emission reduction next, for long-term stability.
Regards
Robert Tulip
From: healthy-planet-...@googlegroups.com <healthy-planet-...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Jan Umsonst
Sent: Thursday, 9 October 2025 11:51 PM
To: Ron Baiman <rpba...@gmail.com>
Cc: healthy-planet-action-coalition <healthy-planet-...@googlegroups.com>; William Beckler <bi...@bsec.org>; Aria Mckenna <ar...@globalcoolingproductions.com>; Cara Fleischer <ca...@creationcommunications.com>; Herb Simmens <hsim...@gmail.com>; Jake Schwartz <ja...@chesapeakeclimate.org>; Rafe Pomerance <rafe.po...@gmail.com>; Michael MacCracken <mmac...@comcast.net>; Healthy Climate Alliance <healthy-clim...@googlegroups.com>; Planetary Restoration <planetary-...@googlegroups.com>; Lucinda Shearman <lucindas...@hotmail.com>; Bruce Melton -- Austin, Texas <bme...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HPAC] How Climate Intervention can Safely and Quickly Cool the Planet_HPAC NYC Climate Week_Sep. 26, 2025
Hi all, that is exactly the framing that will pave the way to our extinction as it implies emission reductions are secondary as we can easily and cheaply cool the climate down so why bother with emission reductions?
Framing is all!
And this headline is the perfect foundation for catastrophe: "How Climate Intervention can Safely, Effectively, Quickly and inexpensively Cool the Planet"
There is a reason why the experts on the earth system warn from solar radiation management as the risks are unknown...
All the best
Jan
Ron Baiman <rpba...@gmail.com> schrieb am Mi., 8. Okt. 2025, 22:00:
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You can’t only consider only the short term impacts of long-term threats, you need to integrate them over their lifetimes to compare apples and oranges.
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Dear Tom,
The question you raise — the balance between short- and long-term factors, cooling versus decarbonisation — highlights a deep tension between effectiveness and coherence. Your argument stresses coherence of policy, which is laudable, but it risks excluding major stakeholders and therefore undermining short-term effectiveness. Keynes’ reminder that “in the long run we are all dead” applies here with particular force.
This raises a fundamental question: is the main goal progressive political victory, or slowing climate change? Many people equate the two, but that link is questionable. It seems clear that solar geoengineering alone could slow climate change, while emission reduction alone could not. A pivot toward geoengineering could buy the time needed to study and scale durable carbon solutions, while also opening the door to alliances with affected industries who have both resources and influence.
If the primary goal is to reverse climate change, then the most urgent short-term task is to restore planetary reflectivity, since albedo loss is currently the dominant driver of additional heating. Yet albedo is entirely absent from the IPCC policy agenda. This omission suggests climate policy is being shaped more by politics than by science, and it raises doubts about the wisdom of aligning our advocacy too closely with the IPCC as a political movement.
In this unsatisfactory context, insisting that cooling allies must sign up in advance to a full long-term scientific agenda risks being counterproductive — especially if it excludes the industries most directly impacted by heat, who also possess the means to act. A more pragmatic stance would be to build a broad coalition around near-term cooling, through an Albedo Accord, while encouraging ongoing research into the longer-term pathway for carbon.
Regards
Robert Tulip
Long term cooling is just as important, and much cheaper, than short term cooling, and both are equally needed for different time scales.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/planetary-restoration/038301dc3936%2463a7c9b0%242af75d10%24%40rtulip.net.
You constantly frame this as “Either-Or” “only one choice” when we need both!
My thought precisely, Tom, except I'm much more of an "all-and" person at this point; from billions of small efforts plus large-scale policy swathes, all hands on deck right now.
Thanks! I should have said we need all sinks on all time scales simultaneously!
From:
Mark Haubner <mhau...@gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, October 9, 2025 at 13:47
To: Tom Goreau <gor...@globalcoral.org>
Cc: rob...@rtulip.net <rob...@rtulip.net>, Jan Umsonst <j.o.u...@gmail.com>, Ron Baiman <rpba...@gmail.com>, healthy-planet-action-coalition <healthy-planet-...@googlegroups.com>, William Beckler <bi...@bsec.org>, Aria Mckenna <ar...@globalcoolingproductions.com>,
Cara Fleischer <ca...@creationcommunications.com>, Herb Simmens <hsim...@gmail.com>, Jake Schwartz <ja...@chesapeakeclimate.org>, Rafe Pomerance <rafe.po...@gmail.com>, Michael MacCracken <mmac...@comcast.net>, Healthy Climate Alliance <healthy-clim...@googlegroups.com>,
Planetary Restoration <planetary-...@googlegroups.com>, Lucinda Shearman <lucindas...@hotmail.com>, Bruce Melton -- Austin, Texas <bme...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [prag] RE: [HPAC] How Climate Intervention can Safely and Quickly Cool the Planet_HPAC NYC Climate Week_Sep. 26, 2025
My thought precisely, Tom, except I'm much more of an "all-and" person at this point; from billions of small efforts plus large-scale policy swathes, all hands on deck right now.
On Thu, Oct 9, 2025 at 12:16 Tom Goreau <gor...@globalcoral.org> wrote:
And that includes temperature sinks by reflection and evapotranspiration
Hi Aria,
Thank you for again setting out your forthright position. I genuinely sympathise with much of your argument. My main concern, however, is that it is not politically practical.
Why do you think Donald Trump won office campaigning on climate denial, and then proceeded to dismantle U.S. government support for climate science? It was because he—and his voters and funders—perceive arguments for systemic economic transformation as tantamount to demanding a communist revolution, a direct attack on the capitalist order. His policies were designed to put such arguments in their place, to demonstrate where real economic and political power resides, and to underline that capitalism will not tolerate what it regards as an existential assault.
If we are serious about climate progress, especially in the U.S. but also in other countries where voters back hydrocarbon expansion, then a different strategy is needed. A temporary focus on albedo restoration, rather than systemic economic transformation, offers a way forward. Such a policy can:
This approach fits squarely within the HPAC climate triad. We should understand “accelerating emission reduction” not as a tribal demand for faster decarbonisation, but as a research programme into how GGR can ultimately scale beyond total emissions—within a capitalist framework, not in opposition to it.
What you describe as “a combative stance against widespread current understanding” is, in my view, essential. The decarbonisation ideology emerged from a Marxist class war critique of capitalism, and especially of its energy industries. This argument is detailed in my attached short essay, The Ideological Roots of Decarbonisation. People of good will have been misled by the Big Lie that decarbonisation by itself is a climate policy. The decarbonisation ideology refuses to compare the relative impacts of albedo and GHGs on planetary heat, precisely because such analysis undermines their intellectual and scientific and political foundations. Insisting that partners buy in to the whole ‘climate justice’ shebang is a recipe for failure and collapse.
It is pointless to say “do everything” when the cooling impacts of rival actions differ by many orders of magnitude. What is needed is clarity and a practical incremental policy:
place radiative forcing at the centre of climate strategy, and focus first on building support to restore planetary reflectivity.
Regards
Robert Tulip
From: planetary-...@googlegroups.com <planetary-...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Aria Mckenna
Sent: Friday, 10 October 2025 5:39 AM
To: Mark Haubner <mhau...@gmail.com>
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