Re: Clouds in the Arctic only provide cooling during a short period during the summer
John Nissen
--Thanks Stephen
I was wondering if anything other than cooling the flow of the oceans into the Arctic could help to cool Greenland ice outside the short period when MCB would work.
If droplet scavenging turns out to be effective, we may be able to do it over Greenland from drones or land-based stations, using our non-toxic white coloured Artificial Loess Dust aerosol that forms from vaporous chlorides and degenerates to clay after sedimenting.
Clive
From: noac-m...@googlegroups.com <noac-m...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Stephen Salter
Sent: Friday, June 2, 2023 11:17 AM
To: 'Achim Hoffmann' <ac...@woxon.com>; 'Clive Elsworth' <Cl...@EndorphinSoftware.co.uk>; 'geoengi...@googlegroups.com' <geoengi...@googlegroups.com>; 'noac-m...@googlegroups.com' <noac-m...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: Clouds in the Arctic only provide cooling during a short period during the summer
Clive
It is true and also rather obvious that cloud brightening only works in summer and this is taken in the calculations about the number of spray vessels which I have circulated. Please let me know if you would like me to send them again.
I agree that warm water in winter would be bad and so we should do marine cloud brightening at lower latitudes through the year. This is a strong argument for vessel mobility. The cooling will still be done but with a time delay.
If the Alterskjaer and Kristjansson are correct about Aitken mode aerosol warming by clearing clouds because it removes lots of water without nucleation, then it might be possible to clear clouds in winter by spraying the very small aerosol. The old design of spray vessels had 18 spray heads. The present one has 32 so we could use smaller nozzles for part of the year. We could also dilute salt water with some desalinated water or take water from what has melted from Iceland. It is only the mass of salt in the aerosol that matters.
Below are graphs from Curry about radiation levels through the year. Please let me know if you have any more recent data.
Stephen
From: noac-m...@googlegroups.com <noac-m...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Achim Hoffmann
Sent: 01 June 2023 15:36
To: Clive Elsworth <Cl...@EndorphinSoftware.co.uk>; geoengi...@googlegroups.com; noac-m...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Clouds in the Arctic only provide cooling during a short period during the summer
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Cooling the Oceans is a no-brainer, if it can be done.
There were a few recent publications talking about melting from “below”.
Here a recent WWF post including a Video explainer clearly targeted at the wider public (rather than experts).
https://www.arcticwwf.org/the-circle/stories/omg-greenlands-glaciers-are-melting-from-below/
From: 'Clive Elsworth' via NOAC Meetings <noac-m...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2023 3:10 PM
To: geoengi...@googlegroups.com; noac-m...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Clouds in the Arctic only provide cooling during a short period during the summer
Hi Stephen – and cloud experts
I found this paper educational, by Shupe et al, 2004: Cloud Radiative Forcing of the Arctic Surface: The Influence of Cloud Properties, Surface Albedo, and Solar Zenith Angle: https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/clim/17/3/1520-0442_2004_017_0616_crfota_2.0.co_2.xml
It says low level clouds in the Arctic only provide cooling during a short period during the summer. The rest of the year they warm the Arctic. So presumably, as increasingly warmer seas flow into the Arctic these clouds will get thicker (i.e. greater Liquid Water Path – LWP) because the air will be more humid, making each cloud droplet bigger. So, it seems that to cool the Arctic the oceans need to be cooled.
Have I got that right?
Clive
From: noac-m...@googlegroups.com <noac-m...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Stephen Salter
Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2023 2:18 PM
To: 'geoengi...@googlegroups.com' <geoengi...@googlegroups.com>; 'noac-m...@googlegroups.com' <noac-m...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Overshoot
Hi All
The Nature paper by Richard Lovett at
will annoy advocates for stratospheric sulphur more than those for marine cloud brightening.
It is a surprise to see this in Nature.
Stephen
>Nature - Overshoot
Yes a surprise, especially as it’s so easy to avoid another glacial period.
Clive
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