oxalates

[louise]

Im just researching on oxalates as it seems not so clear cut. I found this interesting link http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/oxalate there seems conflicting evidence as i have read in Dr Norman Walkers books that in fact boiling high oxalate foods increases the problem with oxalates and eating high oxalate foods raw will increase perestalstic motion and is very much needed to ensure proper movement of the food through the body. Dr Norman Walker says exactly heating oxalate foods is THE problem with oxalates. I no longer juice high oxalate foods as i assume extremely high oxalate amounts will be present in my juice which will hinder the absorption of calcium, which is the whole point why i am juicing - to get nutrients, so i am sticking to juicing lower oxalate greens like kale, cabbage, lettuce and brochilli. Dr Rick and Karen Dina who have been researching the science of raw food nutrition for over 25 years, analysing blood samples etc, say that high oxalate foods are fine as they have very many excellent nutritional properties, but dont rely on them for your calcium intake as the oxalates will interfere with calcium absorption. Well i dont expect to get many nutrients from my salads because whole raw foods (where the fibres are not broken down by cooking or processing) will deliver a very low nutrition (vitamin + mineral) amount to the body.. i have seen an experiment that a raw carrot delivers 5 % of its beta caretonine, a cooked carrot where the fibres are broken down 60 % and pureed or juiced carrot has even higher beta caretine availability to the body. For this reason, i figured, if i eat spinach, dandelion and parsly in my salads instead of juicing them, firstly my salad tastes awesome, lovely and dark green, secondly i am not expecting to get much nutrition (as seen in the raw carrot example) like the calcium from a raw salad anyway, so i can go ahead and eat high oxalate foods in my salads and the salads do the thing they are supposed to do - provide fibre and enable peristalstic motion as otherwise, with only juicing - the needed fibre in the diet is missing.. and i do juice plenty daily..

any thoughts ?

Louise

[Diane]

My own experience is that the knowledge about absorption depends on your particular body, your particular pre-existing diseases. What are your own results?

When I eat raw spinach or juice raw spinach with an apple I get an increase in bowel rapid transit time. I get great toe pain, however if I cook the spinach, toss the water, eating spinach does not cause me great toe pain. This occurs with more consistency when I am recovering from surgery or when I am very ill from a urinary tract infection. I figure this is going on all the time but I am more sensitive during times of illness or recovery.

If I juice a raw carrot with a raw orange and juice them together this colors my stool orange.

Lately I have been juicing pineapple (I like my juice sweet) with broccoli, asparagus, and leafy greens. This has given my husband a decrease in his daily sneezing, in his daily allergies. I have noticed that even with a dietary indiscretion there are no headaches. Juicing vegetables makes us (my husband and myself) feel truly great.

Now in the stores, cranberries are available. I am going to juice them.

I have to admit I have not tried a quick dip of high oxalate greens then fish them out with slotted wire spoon leaving the oxalates behind in the water.

A quick search of pubmed reveal these articles:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14673606

The effect of a vegetarian and different omnivorous diets on urinary risk factors for uric acid stone formation.

Conclusion:  balanced vegetarian diet with a moderate animal protein and purine content, an adequate fluid intake and a high alkali-load with fruits and vegetables results in the lowest risk of uric acid crystallization compared to the omnivorous diets.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14749747

Influence of a mineral water rich in calcium, magnesium and bicarbonate on urine composition and the risk of calcium oxalate crystallization.

Conclusion: The magnesium and bicarbonate content of the mineral water resulted in favorable changes in urinary pH, magnesium and citrate excretion, inhibitors of calcium oxalate stone formation, counterbalancing increased calcium excretion. Since urinary oxalate excretion did not diminish, further studies are necessary to evaluate whether the ingestion of calcium-rich mineral water with, rather than between, meals may complex oxalate in the gut thus limiting intestinal absorption and urinary excretion of calcium and oxalate.

Just my own thoughts

~Diane

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[VJ]

I am on an email list - discussion group for low oxalate diet. There are spreadsheets that list oxalates in foods, etc. I reduced oxalates in my diet due to the Fibromyalgia, which I also have. Also have Celiac Disease (no glutens).
-Vicki

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[VJ]

The Trying Low Oxalates online group had many foods tested for oxalates and has spreadsheets with results on hundreds of foods. For example, spinach and kale are high oxalate, while baby arugula is low. Cinnamon is very high, and certain other spices. Most grains are high. Brown rice can be made lower oxalate by soaking it overnight in water and draining the water before cooking. Chocolate is terribly high in oxalates, as is black tea, green tea, etc. There are many things to consider. But the Trying Low Oxalates group has the spreadsheets that will provide extensive guidance since hundreds and hundreds of oxalates levels are listed, along with portion size with those oxalates.

Vicki

*******************

[Diane Smith]

Vicki

What's the website?

Sent from my awesome Rose Gold iPhone 6s plus

~Diane

[VJ]

Diane -

I don't remember how I found the group or signed up for it or accessed the spreadsheet. I will find out.

Vicki

*******************

[VJ]

I just replied to a Trying Low Oxalates post, to the group, to ask how members of the PLD/PKD group can subscribe, and how they can access the spreadsheets.

Spreadsheets are in MS Excel, I think. Extensive information. Very, very helpful.

I should have a reply by tomorrow and will post the information to PLD/PKD group.

Vicki

***********************

On 11/22/2015 7:06 PM, VJ wrote:

[Diane]

Thanks Vickie.

I appreciate it.

The Italians did a study about kidney stones and with everything being equal the only dietary thing that predicted future kidney stones was an increase in protein.

~Diane

[louise]

Thank you Vicki for sharing about the low oxalate discussion group.. i would love to see some accurate charts as i really dont know the oxalate levels of various foods, e.g. i was at first believing that parsly was low oxalate and then i saw a list which said it has more oxalates than spinach ! that made me cut back my parsly intake drastically, then i recently saw a different chart which said parsly is moderately low in oxalates. I thought kale was low in oxalates but you mention that kale is high ? and just yesterday i discover that sweet potatoes are high in oxalates, that is such news to me, i have been eating raw sweet potato wraps (in lettuce leaves) for breakfast every day recently.. 

interesting you avoid glutens, i dont have celiac disease but because gluten causes inflamation and as far as i am concerned, PKD is inflammation in the organs, i also avoid gluten now.. and for sure, since making this change among others, my torso is becoming far less bloated nowadays..

Louise

[louise]

Diane

I dont quite understand what you wrote "When I eat raw spinach or juice raw spinach with an apple I get an increase in bowel rapid transit time. I get great toe pain, however if I cook the spinach, toss the water, eating spinach does not cause me great toe pain"

are you saying raw spinach causes pain or it causes no pain in the toe ?

are you saying cooking spinach and tossing the water does not cause toe pain ?

I would assume that cooking and not tossing the water is a problem.  

does your skin turn orange after juicing carrots ? Dr Norman Walker says that is due to toxins being released from the liver and is a good thing.. after a while this will decrease.

Diane which greens are you juicing ? i am juicing these ingredients in my daily green juice (750 ml): 3 big leaves kale, 1/2 head brochili, 1/3 head round lettuce, half a gherkin (cucumber), 1 small apple, quater zuchini and tablespoon hemp seeds. In my coloured juice (750ml): half a medium head of red cabbage, 4 carrots, half a small beet, 6 leaves dino kale and a tablespoon pumpkin seeds. i keep needing to decrease the carrot and beet volumes as it often is too sweet for me.

so it seems that oxalates seem to be present in many of the most nutritious foods..

Louise

[Diane]

Vickie is this the yahoo group for low oxalate foods? It will take 24-48 hours to get accepted to this group.

I found out there is more than eating high oxalates foods that can give high oxalates. It is related to how much oxalate you alone manufacture within your own body.

From the group manager:

"The easiest way to insure that you have access to the most up-to-date, accurate list of oxalate values currently available is to join the Trying Low Oxalates Yahoo Group.  I give you step-by-step instructions on how to join and how to find and make a copy of the list in my post, How to get an Accurate Low Oxalate Food List.”

~Diane

[VJ]

Yes, that is the group. Thank you, Diane. It is very worthwhile.

You would be surprised what is high in oxalates.

VIcki

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[VJ]

Here is a response from the head of the Trying Low Oxalates group:
"This link should work.

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Trying_Low_Oxalates/info https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Trying_Low_Oxalates/info >

or they can go to the yahoo groups page and type in Trying Low Oxalates. "

Vicki

*********************

On 11/23/2015 4:51 PM, Diane wrote:

[Diane]

Louise,

I really feel that you are eating the correct diet for you in particular. You alone have made the transition to totally raw. The only person I knew who did this besides yourself is Justin, a young man with PKD. He too loves eating raw The only problem for him was he became so very thin. He has since adjusted his weight. He works in cement work so he needs some bulk for his job.

You have not been complaining about any dizziness. Your own hair is returning to its natural color; your skin is beautiful and clear. This to me, is a sign of health. I look at the person. Do they appear healthy? Even the woman who was in charge of wheatgrass juicing when she died from a fire within her home, her hair was gray. She did not appear healthy to me.

For me, raw spinach has caused me great toe pain in the past. Nowadays if I cook spinach and toss all the formed liquid, eating cooked spinach now does not cause me great toe pain. I am not sure that not tossing the water makes a difference or not. I just always toss the liquid.

My skin does not turn orange from carrots. I did have a friend who was pregnant and she drank so much carrot juice her skin did turn very orange. She was hospitalized and the doctors concluded it was from drinking too much carrot juice. The only time I turn orange, is when I have a dietary discretion then my eye lids seem to become filled with a slight  orange hue. This has not happened to me in ages.

I am juicing 

kale

spinach (raw)

broccoli

asparagus

beets

apple

pineapple

pear

I really love fresh melon juiced. I find it so refreshing!

I eat persimmons fresh and bake sweet potatoes for our evening meal.

I am so watchful with the raw spinach juice. I make it with pineapple or apple or pear. So far so good with juicing raw spinach. Maybe the pineapple combined with the raw spinach makes it so the drink is low in oxalates? 

Your juice sounds wonderful. Too bad about the beets being too sweet. Beets and sweet potatoes are very high in Vitamin B12, which can be a problem for some of us. Red cabbage is high in iron as opposed to green cabbage. I have some squash. I may try juicing it.

It is great that you are using some nuts. A handful of almonds is supposed to go into cabbage juice to make it complete with all the essential amino acids.

Dr. Norman Walker lived to be 99 years old. The photos of him show a face very filled with wrinkles and they show him gray and balding. He did develop the walker juicer, still in use today. I didn’t see him in person, so I am not sure about his appearance. If his mind remained sharp as tack then his diet must have been good.

I don’t use pumpkin seeds, they contribute to rapid bowel transit time for me.

I am not too concerned about the oxalates in food. I make note of it and am watchful.

I know nightshade plants are not good for individuals with PKD. I have also heard this from nephrologists specializing in PKD. I notice I get pains after eating these. I also do not eat alfalfa sprouts.

With all that said I am interested in the list of foods high in oxalates. However the site seems to be leaning toward autism rather than kidney disease.

~Diane

[Diane]

Thanks so much for all your research. This is terrific.

~Diane

[VJ]

You're welcome, Diane. I've been a member of the list a long time.

Vicki

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[Diane]

Vickie,

Going low oxalate, did it help your symptoms?

~Diane

[VJ]

It does help my Fibromyalgia. And joint pain. And I seem to digest the lower oxalate foods better - but I have Celiac Disease with some complications. Seems to help abdominal pain and bloating if i stay with lower oxalates.

Not sure about other symptoms. What symptoms should I be looking at?

Vicki

********************

Version: 2016.0.7227 / Virus Database: 4477/11057 - Release Date: 11/24/15

[Diane]

Those sound fine to me. If it helps the pain of fibromyalgia then stick with it. I never knew that oxalates were the culprit for fibromyalgia. I am learning all the time.

There was a member on our list for PLD who was allergic or had a reaction specifically to nightshades. Avoiding these helped diminish his symptoms from PLD. He saw Dr. Torres who told him it was likely that he would be included among the lucky 92% of individuals with PLD who never ever require de-bulking of the liver.

~Diane

[VJ]

Diane - Nightshades give me reflux, GERD, acid and other digestive symptoms. Tomatoes, tomato sauce and tomato paste give me canker sores, sore tongue, sore throat, and stomach pain too. Then again, many other foods cause problems. Both Celiac Disease and Fibromyalgia tend to cause food allergies and intolerances and not just to gluten. 50% of people with Celiac can't have lactose. I have problems with lactose, milk protein, etc. No dairy. Chocolate and carob are insanely high in oxalates and make my Fibromyalgia pain worse and cause digestive reactions. And the list goes on and on.

I can't have kiwi, oranges, strawberries. Reactions/allergies. And many other things.

So I work around it.

Vicki

*****************

[Diane]

This is so interesting–no kiwi,oranges, strawberries? Do you many (perhaps all) Japanese have lactose intolerance? It happens so often they often joke about it.

How about lemons or melons do these cause you symptoms too?

~Diane

[louise]

one seems to need a yahoo account to join a yahoo group..

Diane, no i don't get dizziness, i have tons of energy, i'm doing sport every day - running, basketball, circuit training. is Justin still eating 100 % raw ? did he get over the dizziness ? maybe it was a transitioning period when the body adjusts - the first weeks / month can be difficult from my experience. why do you get toe pain ?

sweet potatoes are super raw, i find they have more taste than cooked and i find a problem with baked sweet potatoes that one fills up way too quickly as they are so dense with the water cooked off and i always used to feel terrible after a meal with baked sweet potato.. because raw there is so much more water content, its hard to eat too many raw to the extent that one feels bloated. 


Beets and sweet potatoes are very high in Vitamin B12 ??? you mean if one doesnt wash the dirt off them ? well i am experimenting with not washing salad as there are often those little green bugs on it or eggs from the green bugs, one sees them sometimes and once i tried to regrow salad and it simply became infested with these little green flies which all hatched from the eggs.. well maybe this is better than b12 tablets, but i always scrub up the beets and sweet potato as i dont want to eat gravel ..

i like pumpkin seeds in my cabbage juice as it makes the juice much more gentle, which i find important for the taste of red cabbage juice. i tried sprouting pumpkin seeds but they tasted so very bitter they were inedible - however i planted them in pots and they are right now growing nicely ! pumpkin seeds are very nutritious, e.g. manganese is high, zink etc. some nutrients which one doesn't find elsewhere, plus i can use them dry where as almonds require soaking and hence more work. i prefer simpler than more complex raw ingredients where possible. i dont drink almond milk nowadays as i don't drink tea any longer, just warm water but i do still soak and use almonds maybe once a week or fortnight in nut protein bars..

i discovered stinging nettle which im putting in my smoothies, its got tremendous calcium levels but im concerned this interferes with iron supplements. no idea about the oxalate level in stinging nettle however..my main concern with oxalates is not oxalate stones but interfering with calcium absorption. i am led to believe that being active daily, eating vegan and staying alkaline ensures stones dont form..i think stones will form more readily in those with acidic diet and lifestyle in inactive people eating animal products which increases uric acid.. oxalates, phytatic acid, interaction of minerals seems to be quite some big topics.

Louise

[VJ]

Diane -

I am OK with lemons and with melons. My background (ancestry) is Russian-Polish. My ancestors were Ashkenazi Jewish from those countries and from Austria and Estonia.

It happens that 50% of Ashkenazi Jewish adults have or develop lactose intolerance. And 50% of people with Celiac Disease have lactose intolerance. The highest incidence of Celiac Disease is among those of Hungarian ancestry. One person in 18 has it. Though many don't know it because it is undiagnosed or mis-diagnosed 95% of the time. And those who live in other couhtries (other than Hungary) don't have a clue if they have it and don't know what is bothering them, because they don't know it is that prevalent among Hungarians.

Vicki

*****************

[VJ]

Sweet potatoes are high in oxalates but butternut squash isn't, so I don't eat sweet potatoes. Lima beans are much lower in oxalates than many other beans, and garbanzo beans are low as are brown lentils and especially red lentils. Dried lentils in most stores look brown but are green lentils, which are high than brown or red lentils.

Vicki

*************

[Diane]

Dear Vickie,

You are much like the really sweet woman on the PLD group. She has stoppage of food going down. As we age solid food can cause us problems. I have trouble with cold drinks. These make me choke. Hot drinks are fine. Hot food is fine. 

This woman cannot eat many citrus foods but she too is fine with melons and lemons. 

I just read about the discoverer of Vitamin C. He found that fermented whole foods high in vitamin C were best to treat his patients with scurvy. Vitamin C, he discovered, did a less than optimal job even for treating scurvy. All the restuarants in his home town had on the table flakes of (nightshade) peppers, sweet and spicy. I believe he was from Hungary.

This is why to this day, I get Vitamin C with Rose Hips all natural that contains some sort of food in it. I have come to realize that food contains micronutrients that are not obtained from supplements.

I too had my ancestry DNA done. I have 51% European and 49% Asian from the islands. I am almost 50-50, a true EurAsian.

This is amazing about the Hungarians and their intolerance to lactose. Do they have cheeses on their menus? Austria is known world wide for their chocolate.

~Diane

[Mbro ukland]

Such an interesting conversation on Oxalates. 

Did you know we used to, as humans, produce our own vitamin C. 

All the best Michael

 

Cavalier de l'iPad:

Never waste ones time explaining who you are to people who are committed to misunderstanding you!

No one is in charge!

Carpe diem🌀

Cavalier de l'iPad:

“Bodies have their own light which they consume to live: they burn, they are not lit from the outside.”

― Egon Schiele

Carpe diem🌀

[Diane]

Louise,

Do you know about the testing done for bone density of raw food vegans?

It was terrific. They had lower than normal body weights, less fat, and lower bone density but higher vitamin D that is specific for bone growth. The ages were 15-85 (something like that). The study done with raw food vegans (eating raw food fruits and vegetables only–these individuals had stronger bones but were found to be leaner and had lower bone mass then their counterparts. Let me pull up the articles.

http://www.pkdiet.com/pdf/alkaline/veganraw.pdf

Dr. Fontana has studied RF vegans and bone density.

[VJ]

Earth Balance has several varieties of margarine. Most contain flaxseed oil, but one variety - the Avocado Oil spread, does not. The container is lime green and white just like the container for their margarine with olive oil, so read labels carefully. And it costs a bit more - it contains 10 oz instead of the other varieties, which contain 13 ounces. Not every store or health food store has the avocado oil variety, either.

Diane, I don't know about Hungarians and cheeses. I don't know what is typically eaten in Hungary. I have no Hungarian ancestry myself - just Russian, Polish, and a bit of Austrian and Estonian. You are about 50-50 European and Asian?  nice combination and yes a true EurAsian.

Vicki

***************

[Diane]

Did we really make our own Vitamin C? amazing.

~Diane

On Nov 24, 2015, at 8:54 AM, Mbro ukland <mbr...@mac.com> wrote:

Such an interesting conversation on Oxalates. 

Did you know we used to, as humans, produce our own vitamin C. 

All the best Michael

[Diane]

Oh sorry. I got things confused about Hungary.

I am not going to get any margarine any more. I’ll just use straight avocado with a bit of raw garlic (let it sit a few moments) and pepper. Thanks for the suggestions.

~Diane

[Diane]

Lactose Intolerance by Ethnic Group.

~Diane

[VJ]

Straight avocado is a good idea. I'll try that, too, Diane. It is much healthier.

Vicki

****************

[VJ]

WOW! Diane, where did you find this? Impressive list!

Vicki

**********************

[Diane]

It’s from:

http://milk.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000661

Another site has this map:

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-08/infographic-day-where-people-can-digest-milk

On Nov 24, 2015, at 10:11 AM, VJ <just...@comcast.net> wrote:

WOW! Diane, where did you find this? Impressive list!

Vicki

**********************

On 11/24/2015 1:49 PM, Diane wrote:

Lactose Intolerance by Ethnic Group.

<Mail Attachment.png>

[Evonne Flores]

Has anyone heard of Kangen Alkaline Water? Wondering if it was legit and safe. 

Thank you

~Evonne

[Diane]

Dear Evonne,

Before spending extra money on bottled water or drops, check the pH of your own city tap water. It is usually alkaline. Check with your local water company. When I am out and away from home I will drink water that tastes good to me. I prefer a gentle fizz in my water like San Pelegrino brand.

I have tried the alkaline bottled waters in the past; I tried a filter that made alkaline water; but it is taste that I am after. I tried filtered alkaline water. Some people swear by these systems. I am not convinced of their bettering of health.

Perhaps someone else may have a different experience?

Is Kangen Alkaline Water a filter system or does it come as pre-bottled water?

~Diane

[Evonne Flores]

Diane, it is a device that filters tap water and produce ionized alkaline and acidic waters through electrolysis.  My friend has the machine and swears by it too.  She's been filling up jugs of water for me to drink but I am not familiar with any of this and I am not sure if it's right for me.  The machine is expensive and I'm not sure if it's worth the money. Thanks Diane,  I will check with my local water co !

~Evonne

[Diane]

Dear Evonne,

I used to live on Big Island. The woman who taught me Chi-Gong had a similar machine. She sold them and wanted to sell me one. She looked great. This alkaline water worked for her, but I was not too fond of its taste. I joined an alkaline water support group. The oldsters of this group are bald and graying. They didn’t look optimal. I passed on the filter.

My friend in Australia told me she has the most amazing tasting water. She used a crystal machine, no electric parts, something like this machine.

www.hanishwater.com/

I don’t remember the brand. I am really enjoying our own local water. It is not treated with chlorine and has a pH of 8.5.

~Diane

[Mbro ukland]

Nice graphic chart!

M

Cavalier de l'iPad:

Never waste ones time explaining who you are to people who are committed to misunderstanding you!

No one is in charge!

Carpe diem🌀

Cavalier de l'iPad:

“Bodies have their own light which they consume to live: they burn, they are not lit from the outside.”

― Egon Schiele

Carpe diem🌀

[Mbro ukland]

Just some chemistry on pH. 

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/ph.html

http://extension.usu.edu/waterquality/htm/whats-in-your-water/ph

What tap water minuses are about are what else it has in it!

All the best Michael 

Cavalier de l'iPad:

Never waste ones time explaining who you are to people who are committed to misunderstanding you!

No one is in charge!

Carpe diem🌀

Cavalier de l'iPad:

“Bodies have their own light which they consume to live: they burn, they are not lit from the outside.”

― Egon Schiele

Carpe diem🌀