Brakes need overhaul / replacement.

[Chris Rust]

Hi folks, we are just back from a month in India with the Pino (more about that later) and while there the front brake disc was damaged (probably while being bounced around in the back of a taxi).

So this brings to a head the question of whether to replace the brakes, since there is not a lot of point in buying a new Magura rotor if I'm going to change the whole system. I've not been too happy with the Magura brakes, mainly because they seem to need a lot of bleeding for a brake that claims it never needs bleeding. I assume that there were good reasons why Hase switched to Avid. So a few questions that you might be able to help with:

1. Anybody have any comments on the Avid Code R brakes, particularly ease of maintenance?

2. I know somebody here switched to cable brakes (was that you Larry?), obviously that might be more reliable when you are several thousand miles from a specialised shop but how does it affect performance? We went down some extremely long, steep switchback hills with a lot of touring luggage so I was very please to have the stopping power (once I'd bled the brakes again). We used up a nearly new set of brake pads in around 4 days in the Western Ghats. In the UK a set lasts us a year.

3. Also I was wondering how cable brakes would cope with a bent rotor. The hydraulic ones seemed to compensate for the deflection quite well, our only problem was with brand new pads where the clearance was just not enough to allow free spinning and they juddered a bit too. Once the pads were worn in they operated pretty well and luckily we had a two day downhill so the small amount of drag was not a problem. Of course the proper advice is that a bent rotor should be replaced but without a local supplier that would mean abandoning the whole venture (yeah in theory there are couriers and online suppliers but in practice it would have taken too long for the situation we were in. Easier on a long expedition but we only had 8 days of serious cycling - otherwise the bike was for cruising round local roads in the places we were staying)

4. With the Maguras I had a scary moment when the pads had become heavily worn. We'd been going down the aforementioned steep switchback with the brakes on most of the time (stops for cooling), then on a less steep section I released the brakes for around 100m and when I came to brake again there was nothing there. A couple of pumps and it was fine and I assume this was something to do with the pad wear but I wondered if anybody had a comment?

Having read reviews on the Avid Code R brakes they look like being a good upgrade but I'd like to hear what you guys have to say.

Incidentally, as you can imagine, a Pino in India is quite something. We had wonderful rides in the mountains and wherever we went the people were lovely and very interested, Isobel felt even more like a princess than usual. One hotel manager likened her to the Queen of England, he also said we were "a splendid example to the younger generation." The bike even secured us the last bottle of beer in town as there was a national strike and the hotel had run out. There was one bottle left and the manager insisted we had it for our effort in cycling there (we had to hide it from the other guests as he'd told them there was none left to avoid fighting over the last bottle).

Best wishes from sunny (chilly) Sheffield

Chris

[Craftsman]

I have Avid brakes. They work great, but both had to be rebuilt really early in their life because the calipers froze up. I couldn't image doing that on the road, but make sure you bring some brake grease, fluid and a rebuild kit with you. Not sure how you would get the plungers out as I needed an hour and compressed air to blow them free.

--
--
You are subscribed to the "PinoTalk" discussion group.
If you have joined recently other members would be pleased to see a short message introducing you.
To unsubscribe send email to: pinotalk+u...@googlegroups.com
More options: http://groups.google.com/group/pinotalk?hl=en?hl=en
 
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PinoTalk" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pinotalk+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Paul Robison]

I have the Avid brakes as well, but since flying with the Pino I've never been able to stop the pads rubbing, despite several thorough bleeds.  I suspect the pistons need attention. That 2 out of 2 owners report problems doesn't seem like a recommendation for Avid brakes to me!

Paul.

[Bob Bending]

Apart from having to re center the caliper now and then, I've never had to do anything else to the Maguras. Put new pads in before our lejog and they are still ok.

Not used Avid before but the Avids on my son's MTB have needed a lot of 'fettling' to keep running without rubbing. Given the choice I'd go for Hope.

[Robert Gormley]

My Pino has Magura Louise brakes, and they also need bleeding once or twice
a year.

I upgraded to the stainless steel hoses to get a better feel, and I'm not
sure if that was necessary, since I bled the brakes at the same time and the
improvement experienced could have simply been down to a very thorough
bleeding (off the bike, prior to installation).

I've Avid Juicy something on my commuter and not had any issues with them in
terms of needing bleeding, although the commuter is several years younger
than the Pino.

The Magura brake pads are much easier to change, however, and are easier to
check for wear.

The other thing to watch out for is the tandem rating - at a first glance
few brakes (one per manufacturer?) are rated for tandem use, so care should
be taken in selecting a replacement. I know at one point only the Louise
(with certain rotor sizes) were approved by Magura, but later the Gustav M
was also approved. I see some shops selling tandem Hope discs, and a search
for Avid and tandem doesn't turn up anything quickly from their sites,
except noting that the SRAM 9.0 is only rated to 125 kg and not suitable for
tandems (in Italian)...

The Avid Shorty rim brake, however is being sold for tandem use

For the moment, I'm happy with my bleeding regimen, however I'm not on a
round the world trip!

Robert


--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

[Chris Rust]

On 04/03/2013 11:24, Bob Bending wrote:

Apart from having to re center the caliper now and then, I've never had to do anything else to the Maguras. Put new pads in before our lejog and they are still ok.

Thanks Bob,

Maybe my bleeding technique is lacking or maybe there's a fault somewhere in ours that causes them to acquire air, although that's hard to believe when it's both brakes.

I have to bleed our Maguras every 6-9 months. When we arrived in India it was clear they had reached a point where they were OK for gentle terrain but would not stop us on a proper hill. I'd suspected that would be the case and packed a bleed kit (better to do the job after transporting it). I was lucky also that the new pads I'd ordered were not here on time but a quick phone round shops found a set not too far away in Rotherham on the day before we left.

Best wishes from sunny Sheffield
Chris

[Chris Rust]

On 04/03/2013 12:11, Robert Gormley wrote:
> The other thing to watch out for is the tandem rating - at a first glance
> few brakes (one per manufacturer?) are rated for tandem use, so care should
> be taken in selecting a replacement.

Since Hase currently fit the Avid Code R brakes, and they seem to be
more powerful than other Avid brakes I guess they will be OK. The Pino
seems to have a significant advantage in having a 20" front wheel with
sturdy suspension forks making the big front brake more effective and
the bike more able to cope with the stress.

It's a bit worrying that so far nobody has been completely happy with
the Avid brakes. Compared to Magura, Avid publish much more
comprehensive technical guidance including how to do a complete strip
down of the calipers, Maybe that's a case of needs must but one reviewer
commented that this means you can keep the Avid brakes going for a lot
longer life, as you can replace everything.

Customer reviews on shop websites seem very positive about the Code R
brakes, comparing them to previous experience with other products, lots
of positives and no negatives. Of course these are all mountain bikers
and maybe they replace their bikes every 6 months :o)

All the reviews tend to focus on downhill mountain bikes and the need
for power and control, rather than the very different needs of tandems.
Also I've seen debates about discs being great as long as you don't use
them as a drag brake. Well our recent experience of very big steep
switchback hills is that you just have to "drag" and the best you can do
is swap between the brakes and stop regularly for cooling. Keeping the
speed right down helps.

The anti-drag guy talked about doing 60mph downhill because you have
great brakes but that assumes a smooth road, no nerves and no serious
bends. And of course having somebody sitting in front of you with no
brakes of their own is a big factor as is carrying all your luggage.

Reading more about tandem brakes it's all a bit scary, I'd like to know
more about how Hase specify these brakes and I'm also thinking about
whether we could use some backup in the form of a rim brake, even though
John and Ruth fitted them and found they didn't need them on the very
hilly West Yorkshire Cycle Route.

best wishes from hilly Sheffield
Chris

[Chris Rust]

On 04/03/2013 12:11, Robert Gormley wrote:

I upgraded to the stainless steel hoses to get a better feel,

Where did you get those Robert?
thanks
Chris

[John Slater]

Interesting, the Magura rim brakes on ours have never needed bleeding since purchase. Only maintenance has been to replace pads and re-align when replacing wheels.  As you may have seen in previous posts rim overheating has been a problem however.

John 

--

[Robert Gormley]

>> I "upgraded" to the stainless steel hoses to get a better feel,

> Where did you get those Robert?

http://www.bike-discount.de

However it was last year (February), they aren't currently listed, and I had
to hunt to find the hoses then.

A full replacement, rather than a hose swap, might be now the only option
available to folk, and I can't say for certain that simply taking the brakes
off, bleeding them on the bench and refitting them might not be what
actually makes a difference!

Incidentally, it's my front brake that loses most power, so it could be a
slight leak somewhere that causes the problem - in which case it must be
small, as there is no obvious weeping anywhere...

[Chris Rust]

On 04/03/2013 13:40, John Slater wrote:

Interesting, the Magura rim brakes on ours have never needed bleeding since purchase. Only maintenance has been to replace pads and re-align when replacing wheels.  As you may have seen in previous posts rim overheating has been a problem however.

Yes you are damned if you do and...

The Brompton forum is full of debate about the relatively ineffective Brompton caliper brakes but warnings too about fitting more powerful brakes because of overheating the small rims (16 inch), and also wearing them out, both due to less metal doing the same work as a big wheel. There have been blowouts on downhills due to overheating. One big chap who uses Magura hydraulic rim brakes on his Brompton seems to get by OK but he's very experienced and I suspect he uses rims made from girders.

I'm looking around to see if there are some neat caliper brakes available that might fit the front forks to give some backup. I'm also wondering about finding a rear disk brake designed to work as a drag brake as they seem to exist. Anybody know anything about that? Presumably they are designed for cooling?

Chris

[Paul Robison]

I'm also wondering about finding a rear disk brake designed to work as a drag brake as they seem to exist. Anybody know anything about that? Presumably they are designed for cooling?

I think an Arai drum brake would be a better bet.  At least if it all goes wrong you're not going to blow off a tyre or buckle a disk, both of which seem pretty drastic to me.  I have used an Arai on alpine descents on an upright tandem with a trailer and it was hot, noisy and smelly but at least I knew it wasn't going to melt the hub or the spokes!

Has anyone experimented with using disk brakes designed for motorbikes on a tandem?  They really must have cracked the cooling problem...

Or a parachute?  Seriously, a little one as a drag brake.  Am I missing something?  Would it have to be enormous?

Paul.

[Chris Rust]

On 04/03/2013 17:49, Paul Robison wrote:
> I think an Arai drum brake would be a better bet.

Trouble is we have a Rohloff hub. And I'm saving the front hub for when
we are more decrepit and need a motor.

> Or a parachute? Seriously, a little one as a drag brake. Am I
> missing something? Would it have to be enormous?

Some kind of air brake might work but not at the slow speeds we were
coming down from the Western Ghats. Even on the main roads in India the
steepest downhill sections were often where water damage had created a
very bad surface and nobody was going very fast. We could often keep up
with the motor traffic on downhills but it was going around 15-20 mph
because of the potholes, you also had to be ready to slow right down to
steer round a seriously destroyed section of road.

Actually, looking around there seems to be a good supply of cantilever
brakes still so I think we'll fit one as backup regardless of anything else.

Chris

[John Slater]

I would very much like to have a hub or disc brake on the front in addition to the Magura rim brakes. In my humble opinion the short wheel base on the Pino would not benefit having extra braking on the rear. As the front is so heavily loaded particularly downhill I have a 48 spoke wheel 'made from girders'. Experts will say this is overkill but it gives me some reassurance after a couple of hairy blow outs and a few broken spokes. Haven't found a disc or hub braked front in a 48 yet but will upgrade when I do.

--

[John Slater]

Think a 'v' brake would be a simpler fitment?

[Chris Rust]

On 04/03/2013 18:42, John Slater wrote:

Think a 'v' brake would be a simpler fitment?

Yes I've realised that, in fact cantilevers won't fit at all on the front. Anyway three brakes sounds like a better scheme although I've still not resolved my original problem. Rebuilding the hydraulics with new braided hoses might be worth a try, Goodridge sell high performance hose direct but you would need to phone them as their website isn't at all clear.

Chris

[John Slater]

To be honest I'm not sure where you expect to benefit from braided hoses.  My experience here is limited to motorcycles but the benefit is only fractional where the original hoses distort under pressure. Air in the system can sometimes (you may already have done this)  be reduced by leaving the brake lever pumped up and firmly tied overnight.  The theory being larger bubbles are diffused into the fluid under the constant pressure and dispersed throughout the system to be released at the reservoir later. Could be total cobblers as an explanation but it has often worked on an 'unbleedable' in the past. 

--

[Chris Rust]

On 04/03/2013 20:41, John Slater wrote:
> To be honest I'm not sure where you expect to benefit from braided hoses.

Me neither but rebuilding might eliminate any leaks or faults in the
original build and it seems a good idea to use the best hose available.
Some people suggest that there is some "give" in all-plastic hoses that
makes brakes less responsive.

As the bike is a long-term investment it's not expensive to fit more
durable parts. We split our Pino very regularly for transport so the
front hose gets a lot of manhandling.

Chris

[Larry Black]

Ha!
We used a runner's training 'chute in a long descents from Mt Haleakala in Hawaii
We recommend this only for longer descents, as the 'chute could drag the road or tangle if and when speed drops.
I wore the belt on the waist - it featured a sliding ring.
We recommend shortening the tether cords as the 'chute sways left, right, up, and down.
Passing motorists ascending were startled and gave us plenty of space.

Larry Black
la...@bike123.com
www.bike123.com

[Larry Black]

Keep in mind a 26 front is far stronger than a 700 , and a 20 den stronger yet.

With reasonable certainty, John Howard and dr Alan Abbott used 36 spokes on their 20" wheels for la d speed records exceeding 240 kph!

The Rhoades cars and Surreys we sell use 36 spokes and with driver and passengers can exceed a half ton!

The Worksman and similar delivery bikes and trikes also survive quite well on 36 spokes.

The Worksman front load trike boasts a 227.4 kg cargo capacity!

Note tricycles have wheel side loads not experienced on two wheelers!

Larry Black

la...@bike123.com

www.bike123.com

[Larry Black]

Santana tandems claim their Winzip and Bengal rear discs are the only 'officially' recognized tandem quality brake.

We have seen melted and failed factory-supplied discs on CoMotion and other tandems.

Larry Black

la...@bike123.com

www.bike123.com

[John Slater]

Larry, you're Bonkers   but just love it that you tried.

[John Slater]

I'm sure you're correct Larry but my experience with the original wheel and a 36 spoke replacement has been poor and the wheel I'm using now has been reliable.  The way I see it is we have an all up weight of just under 500lbs.  The Pino is a short wheelbase bike putting a big weight onto the front on downhills.  We do not have suspension forks so sometimes the combination a weight and shockload can be pretty high on some of the unsealed paths we sometimes take.   I expect as we are older the duty required will be less as we take less risks and do fewer big hills but experience is a powerful motivator.
Cheers John

[Larry Black]

It was a hoot!

I bought two in Maryland, got to California to stop over for a day, discovered we left 'em home.

Bought another in LA.

Because we were a group, we could not start above 6000 feet!

BOO!

The total road up is 32 mi, 12,000' climb, which I ascended on a single a few years back. 

The descent from 6000 was enough - it got old and white knuckled after awhile.

The  Pino trip from Passau to the Black Sea last year was a milder and far more rewarding descent

Larry Black

la...@bike123.com

www.bike123.com

On Mar 4, 2013, at 11:08 PM, John Slater <weetwo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Larry, you're Bonkers <360.gif>  but just love it that you tried.

[Larry Black]

Yes we know about the stress

We had a tire that underwent some tough times years ago.

You get something like a Sun Rhino

And a Phil Wood hub - use .92 or even .105 spokes 

Remember! A 36 spoke rim has FEWER HOLES, TOO!  ;-I

Larry Black

la...@bike123.com

www.bike123.com

[Chris Rust]

Thanks everybody for your interesting and helpful comments. I'm still
struggling with my original questions which were partly about the value
of switching to the Avid Code R brakes now used by Hase and more
generally about how to improve the reliability of the brakes.

So far it seems that we have no good reports of the Avids and one
worrying one about new brakes seizing up.

My thinking at the moment, unless I get some better information about
the Avid brakes, is:

1. Fit some backup in the form of a Vee brake on the front wheel,
operated from the Princess seat.

2. Study and overhaul the Magura brakes, fitting the best hoses I can
find and paying close attention to bleeding, probably off the bike. This
is the Goodridge hose:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=2946

3. Replace the bent rotor with one of these:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=20750
which seems to offer some advantages for the big downhills - more metal
to soak up the heat and some induced airflow to help with the cooling.
Even if I went for the Avid brakes in the end this rotor seems
worthwhile, and I could consider fitting one to the rear.

Incidentally our rims are black and I assume that's an anodized coating
which will wear away when the Vee brake is fitted.

I've learned quite a lot from stuff written on the web but objective and
up-to-date advice seems hard to find and some apparently authoritative
assertions don't stand up to close examination. For example one
discussion of braking for tandems on hills says that using the brakes
continuously to maintain a slow speed is a bad option but having pointed
out that the amount of energy you have to soak up for a given hill is
constant it seems to ignore the fact that the slower you go the more
time there is for heat to disperse.

best wishes from confused Sheffield
Chris

[John Slater]

Your comment Chris

 ' For example one discussion of braking for tandems on hills says that using the brakes continuously to maintain a slow speed is a bad option but having pointed out that the amount of energy you have to soak up for a given hill is constant it seems to ignore the fact that the slower you go the more time there is for heat to disperse.'

should factor in the amount of wind drag at higher speeds, on a long straight slope your speed will build until wind drag is equal to the effect of gravity.  On a solo with a similar frontal area and less weight that speed will be lower. A heavily laden tandem will be higher but the amount of energy the brakes would need to soak up will be lower the faster you go.  That's where the argument comes from but on a winding treacherous downhill that is no help at all.

For my part I want my brakes to be on top of the job whatever speed I go and to be able to come to a stop as and when required.

Chris

--
--
You are subscribed to the "PinoTalk" discussion group.
If you have joined recently other members would be pleased to see a short message introducing you.

To unsubscribe send email to: pinotalk+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

More options: http://groups.google.com/group/pinotalk?hl=en?hl=en

--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PinoTalk" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pinotalk+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[John Slater]

Good luck with the project

[Robert Gormley]

> Incidentally our rims are black and I assume that's an anodized coating
> which will wear away when the Vee brake is fitted.

You may need to change your rim - I've considered the same sort of thing on
my Pino as the fork has v-brake bosses, but the rim doesn't have a braking
surface. If it's a disc specific rim (and I suspect so if it's got a
coating), then it may not work very well as a braking surface even when the
coating has been worn away.

> For example one
> discussion of braking for tandems on hills says that using the brakes
> continuously to maintain a slow speed is a bad option but having pointed
> out that the amount of energy you have to soak up for a given hill is
> constant it seems to ignore the fact that the slower you go the more
> time there is for heat to disperse.

Yes, but... airflow over the brakes will be reduced, and you'll effectively
be relying on convection to cool the discs.

The most convincing physical description I found was to brake sharply, then
coast (potentially speeding up) to let the breeze cool the brakes, then
brake sharply, etc. You could argue about thermal mass and lag, etc, but
the fact that you have wind cooling the components is important.

Dragging the brakes, then stopping to let them cool looks to be the worst
possible scenario given that the wind cooling probably isn't adequate under
continual heat production, then you will be entirely relying on convection
during the stop.

Pouring water on them would definitely be the last resort - I'd be very
concerned about thermal shock, either acute, or chronic introducing later
failure points.

As for the energy remaining constant, well, yes the potential energy change
is fixed, but there is a maximum descent speed possible; above the terminal
velocity, your kinetic energy won't increase (0.5 x mass x velocity x
velocity) and the excess will go into parting the air.

I don't think that air cooling can defeat the heat production during braking
- if it did, then the brakes wouldn't warm up at all, so dragging only will
work if you could keep the amount of drag below what can be dissipated by
the wind, and a still day won't be in your favour on this one.

Hence I'd accept that the brakes are going to heat up, and let them heat up
in one go, but then let them air cool for as long as possible.

Actually, I've found a discussion on this from Thorn:

http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/tandembraking.htm

Although they do advocate pouring water on the rims in this case...

[Chris Rust]

On 05/03/2013 09:59, Robert Gormley wrote:

You may need to change your rim - I've considered the same sort of thing on
my Pino as the fork has v-brake bosses, but the rim doesn't have a braking
surface.  If it's a disc specific rim (and I suspect so if it's got a
coating), then it may not work very well as a braking surface even when the
coating has been worn away.

I was wondering about that but it looks like a brake-able rim, especially as it has a wear indicator groove in the centre of the braking surface. I'll check with Ruth and John.

thanks Robert
Chris

[Chris Rust]

Thanks to everybody for their advice and experience. Having read what
has been said here, looked widely at what is published on the web about
tandem brakes and discussed it with Ruth Hargreaves at JD Tandems I have
a strategy.

Step one to get back on the road, I couldn't find a Magura Venti brake
rotor on sale as they are discontinued (not enough people wanted heavier
than normal disks with good cooling I guess). However John Hargreaves
confirmed that they were the best option for cooling and surprise,
surprise, he had a used one in the workshop which they have sold me so I
now have a more rigid and cooler front disk that will probably work with
other brake systems. Just waiting for my new torque wrench so I can fit
it this week in time for the Sheffield Friday Night ride on the 15th.

I think Magura did a Rohloff version of the Venti so I'll keep looking
out for one of those for the rear. They seem to come up on Ebay and some
of the Mountain Bike forums might be worth asking. I'll also be looking
out for another front rotor as it would be good to have a spare. If I
find several I'll let you all know. Incidentally the Venti is
"ventilated" by having fan blades incorporated in the cast centre
section (which is also a good heat sink), it doesn't have "vents" in the
disk like the Hope vented rotor which is only suitable for certain very
expensive Hope brakes. Both the Venti and the Hope are claimed to give
15% better cooling which makes the Venti good value, especially as it
seems to work with many different types of brake.

Ruth and John are also making up a Vee brake kit for the front wheel so
we have some backup braking if the the hydraulic brakes let us down.
They have a vee brake fitted on their own Pino although they have never
used it. We are not particularly heavy people, but our full-up touring
load is quite heavy so the insurance will be good.

Interestingly there are some stories on the web about overheating but
nearly all are about rim brakes or the Avid BB7 cable-operated brakes
which don't fail but do melt their plastic adjuster knobs. JD recommend
the BB7 brakes for expeditions where you may be in the wilds for a long
time, they are also testing the Bengal cable calipers which Santana
recommend although they seem less easy to adjust than the BB7s.

So we may consider cable calipers at some point, especially if we plan a
more serious expedition type ride outside Europe or North America but
I'm reasonably confident about the Magura brakes since they got us down
from 2000m to 100m with continuous braking on some very steep sections
and a bent front rotor.

If I can't fix our Magura brakes' tendency to become very spongy and
need bleeding after 9 months of light use then I will consider the Avid
Code R brakes. JD report no serious issues on the ones they have sold
and the design does seem to be more likely to self-adjust. However they
use DOT brake fluid which is very toxic and removes your paint so an
alternative would be the latest Magura MT2 brakes which are both cheap
and reportedly give excellent performance. Attractions include they are
claimed to be very easy to bleed and you can change the pads WITHOUT
REMOVING THE WHEEL which would be wonderful on a tour. I'm not worried
about the paint so much as we seem to be doing a good job of removing
paint without the aid of chemicals. Chucking the Pino in the back of an
Indian Jeep taxi is a good way to create a stylish "distressed" finish.

The one thing that seems to be true about tandem brakes is that there
are no disk brakes sold as suitable for tandems apart from the ones that
Santana configure for their bikes with huge rotors and Bengal calipers.
Everybody says you need a drum brake for "dragging" but since we can't
fit one of those with the Rohloff on the rear and I would like to keep
the front wheel free for a motor one day that doesn't seem to be an
option. I am considering buying one of the front wheel drums that
Greenspeed sell for Bromptons to use on my Brompton Recumbent so we'll
see how that goes if and when. I suspect we would need a beefier hub for
the Pino.

best wishes from cold slightly snowy Sheffield
Chris

[philip.j...@gmail.com]

if you are considering an e-bike some day, you could consider one with regenerative braking. Sue and I had a go on the Bionix Pino at Eurobike 2012. When the regenerative braking was switched on it created quite a noticeable drag. So long downhill sections become an opportunity to claw back at least a little of what you've expended on the way up.

We did get an electric hub for our Pino, but in the end got the Protanium as we have a Rohloff at the rear. We did want the new Heinzmann that was on display at Eurobike which had good torque control and regenerative braking, but they do not supply Hase. As yet. They were in discussion so it may come about at some point.

Best regards, Phil.

Sent from my iPad

[Chris Rust]

, <philip.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> if you are considering an e-bike some day, you could consider one with regenerative braking. Sue and I had a go on the Bionix Pino at Eurobike 2012. When the regenerative braking was switched on it created quite a noticeable drag.

I had wondered about that and although a motor plus a smallish battery will weigh more than a hub brake it's potentially an elegant solution to the drag brake problem. We met one serious uphill in India where the assistance would have been extremely welcome. (main roads were very well engineered with steady inclines but secondary roads were not so friendly)

Thanks Phil
Chris

[Chris Rust]

Phil said

> We did get an electric hub for our Pino, but in the end got the Protanium as we have a Rohloff at the rear. We did want the new Heinzmann that was on display at Eurobike which had good torque control and regenerative braking, but they do not supply Hase. As yet. They were in discussion so it may come about at some point.<

I guess that's not an issue for someone retrofitting. My brother had a Protanium front hub when his health prevented him from cycling and he was very happy with it. The main factor was that it was the system supported by his excellent local bike shop.

Chris

[Robert Gormley]

> The one thing that seems to be true about tandem brakes is that there
> are no disk brakes sold as suitable for tandems apart from the ones that
> Santana configure for their bikes with huge rotors and Bengal calipers.

That's odd, as Magura did recommend some of their disks for tandems at one
point (Louise and latterly Gustav M). I wonder why they stopped doing so -
too small a market?

[Bob Bending]

On Sunday, March 10, 2013 11:37:17 PM UTC, Chris Rust wrote:

I'm not worried
about the paint so much as we seem to be doing a good job of removing
paint without the aid of chemicals. Chucking the Pino in the back of an
Indian Jeep taxi is a good way to create a stylish "distressed" finish.

We were a bit disappointed  with the paint job on our Pino. We bought an Allround, but a white one, so paid extra and had a longer wait for delivery. While doing the end-to-end, I sellotaped a card to the upper spar of the captain's cockpit. It got a thorough soaking on our trip and the tape ended up quite mushy. Even so, it pulled a large chunk of the white paint off the frame when I removed it at home.

Haven't spoken to Ruth or John about it as there are other little knocks and scrapes too, but I did expect better of the frame paint.

[Larry Black]

Interesting

A dozen plus red ones we've owned and sold held up well over the years- our personal white custom suffers from huge flake- offs!

Larry Black

la...@bike123.com

www.bike123.com

--

--
You are subscribed to the "PinoTalk" discussion group.
If you have joined recently other members would be pleased to see a short message introducing you.

To unsubscribe send email to: pinotalk+u...@googlegroups.com

More options: http://groups.google.com/group/pinotalk?hl=en?hl=en
 
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PinoTalk" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pinotalk+u...@googlegroups.com.

[Chris Rust]

"Robert Gormley" <r.go...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> That's odd, as Magura did recommend some of their disks for tandems at one
> point (Louise and latterly Gustav M).  I wonder why they stopped doing so -
> too small a market?

Sorry Robert, I was generalising on the basis of a barrage of information which led me to conclude that nobody was prepared to get behind their products for tandems. In fact the Magura MT2 is recommended for tandems. So there is a 90 quid hydraulic brake recommended for tandems and it allows you to change pads on the road.

My only excuse is that a search for Tandem on magura's website gets no response. Clearly they are extremely coy about the matter.

Chris

[Ruth Hargreaves]

John says white is always more brittle than darker colours, we have only sold 2 or 3 white ones, all the rest have been red or blue or green. I think Hase are changing away from white as they asked me what colour our customers might like instead.

 

Regards

Ruth

--

[Larry Black]

Black is safest for ANY travel or well used machine

There's one shade of black

For touch up

We leave the flake off alone on the white one

The 'beusage' adds to the character

We love this term and concept!

The chipping of a well played child's toy, the burnished rust on playground equipment, a broken in brooks saddle, and our well- traveled Pino!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181095360133?redirect=mobile

Larry Black

la...@bike123.com

www.bike123.com

[Chris Rust]

On 11/03/2013 13:11, Larry Black wrote:

Black is safest for ANY travel or well used machine

but so depressing. and black stuff is very hard to organise, I lost a black gps unit on this last trip, somewhere in a dark room or a black bag alongside other black things.

cr

[Chris Rust]

On 11/03/2013 12:21, Ruth Hargreaves wrote:

I think Hase are changing away from white as they asked me what colour our customers might like instead.

My favourite bike was yellow, such a cheery optimistic colour.

cr

[Larry Black]

Ordinarily I would agree

I'm so careless I bought a bright orange  mobile phone case that's waterproof and floats.

They only make orange for visability.

Though I've lost bikes before its not because if colour.

Having dealt with over 100,000 customers bike sales since starting in this game, I cannot come close to counting those thousands who covet the emotion and  look of their cycles-

They agonize over cosmetics, they blow time they could be enjoying life, riding , and each other.

I am a bit envious of anyone who even has the time to worry about the looks of their bikes or anything for that matter.

How much are you looking at your bike whilst riding??

How much of it can you see?

How about watching  scenery, each other, your riding companions?

Black is still the simplest to touch up and has the least impact on scratches if you care.

We have been fortunate to have discovered forms of excitement besides the looks of our cycles!

Why the rant?

As retailers we have to invest valuable  time pampering bicycle cosmetics rather that what we do most exceptionally- keep them in their best form functionally!

Still, we at capable of pampering and have artisans on hand for those that want the most knock-out if custom finishes- and we get those done in a few days!

What we do like bright and colourful

Is our bike boxes and bags.

Eady to spot in a terminal in case a perp takes off with the wrong bag 'accidentally'

And for those nitpicky about sound and other cosmetics on their luggage, don't get me started.

Best sign I've seen lately was at the luggage office of our carrier:

Luggage is designed to transport and protect  its contents - not to maintain cosmetic appeal.

We like our bikes and luggage to show age and wear and be less appealing to thieves.

Happy Travels

Larry and Linda Black

Bike123.com

la...@bike123.com

www.bike123.com

--

[John Slater]

Hey Larry,

I thought the wonderful thing about the cosmetics from a retailer's point of view was that you could then sell junk if it was pretty. 

Like your style though

[Larry Black]

Ha!

Not for those of us with the high 'stick' factor.

What we provide 'sticks' better with the customers!

We leave the cheap bikes with glitzy cosmetics for the department stores and emotional customers.

Thanks for your thoughts and reading.

Larry Black

la...@bike123.com

www.bike123.com

On Mar 11, 2013, at 1:17 PM, John Slater <weetwo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey Larry,

I thought the wonderful thing about the cosmetics from a retailer's point of view was that you could then sell junk if it was pretty.  <360.gif>

Like your style though <347.gif>

[Chris Rust]

On 11/03/2013 16:37, Larry Black wrote:

How much are you looking at your bike whilst riding??

How much of it can you see?

Actually we spend quite a lot of time sitting by the road enjoying the scenery (usually half way up a hill) with the Pino in full view and we get pleasure from seeing it there partly because it is a cheerful red bike as well as being such an attractive one anyway.

cr

[Larry Black]

Sounds great 

We did that when we and our bike had more to admire!

Now we sell attractive bikes to attractive people!

Larry Black

la...@bike123.com

www.bike123.com

--

[Phil Prosser]

Ours used to be black and rather scruffy.  Now it's orange and slightly less scruffy.  Do we get more pleasure from riding it now?  Yeah, I think we do.  But we still bought it when it was black because the right bike was more important than its colour.

[larry black]

we,would win the scruffy prize

ours is 20 percent exposed aluminum

must have been painted during Oktoberfest

the white flakes off easily when something hits it, or tape is peeled

after a couple dozen states and a couple dozen countries, it;'s doing OK

our major nuisance is the chain management with that stinking under chain guide clip

catch 22

chain so tight it causes tough pedalling, or looser so the chain rubs constantly or in an irritating rhythm

I have not found a way out, with or without chain tubing

On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Phil Prosser <p.pr...@csl.gov.uk> wrote:

Ours used to be black and rather scruffy.  Now it's orange and slightly less scruffy.  Do we get more pleasure from riding it now?  Yeah, I think we do.  But we still bought it when it was black because the right bike was more important than its colour.

--

--
You are subscribed to the "PinoTalk" discussion group.
If you have joined recently other members would be pleased to see a short message introducing you.
To unsubscribe send email to: pinotalk+u...@googlegroups.com
More options: http://groups.google.com/group/pinotalk?hl=en?hl=en
 
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PinoTalk" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pinotalk+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
Larry Black
Mt Airy Bicycle
College Park Bicycle
Maryland, USA
www.bike123.com
la...@bike123.com