Brake issues sram code-r, avid bb7, mechanical vs hydraulic
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Head Honcho
Jul 29, 2020, 3:25:21 PM7/29/20
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Our 2013 pino is equipped with SRAM CodeR 4 piston hydraulic brakes. Stopping power is impressive although early in our ownership we had front brake issues that resulted in warranty replacement of the front caliper. Until recently the brakes have been trouble free but lately we've experienced dragging on the front. We need to address the problem, perhaps replacing the brakes which is a $300-400 for new hydraulic hardware.
Our newly acquired 2017 Pino has mechanical Avid BB7 brakes. The original owner encountered problems with the factory installed hydraulic brakes (I don't know which model) and ditched them for the mechanical brakes. Stopping power is adequate but, in my view, inferior to the CodeR hydraulic brakes of our older Pino. The mechanical brakes do not inspire confidence in me. Therefore, replacement with hydraulic something is on the to-do list.
The question is, which brand(s) and model(s) should we consider. I want a four piston set, preferably manufacturer endorsed for use on a tandem. Something that has good manufacturer support with readily available parts and pads. Carrying extra pads is easy enough but are repair parts actually available?
From what I've seen, Hase has used Magura, SRAM, Shimano and Tektro over the years. Has one brand been more reliable than the others? I don't want to squander money on this but since it's safety critical, it's essentiall to make a good choice. My stoker and I thank you for any illuminating information you can share on this topic.
Chris Rust
Jul 29, 2020, 3:41:11 PM7/29/20
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We ditched Magura for BB7 because our Magura Louise brakes were not reliable, needed frequent bleeding, it seemed to be hit and miss whether you got a reliable set or not.
I didn't like the BB7s much, especially the one side operation, and I've now fitted TRP Spyke cable calipers to the Pino and my so recumbent.
The Spyke is double acting, it's not as powerful as the hydraulics when they were working well but they didn't always work well. As long as you take the trouble to adjust them frequently the Spykes are great. We've been down some big steep hills this week with no cause for concern.
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Steve Marsh
Jul 29, 2020, 11:09:44 PM7/29/20
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I replaced my Sram Guide brakes with the Tektro HD-M750 brakes that are presently shipping on all new Pinos. I had the same issue with dragging to the point the brakes would not release if they got hot from ambient sun heating. It is apparently a design issue on these brakes but since SRAM has shipped so many of them they did not issue a recall. SRAM refused a warranty claim due to being beyond their 2 year warranty period. I doubt I will purchase another SRAM brake product in future.
The M750 brakes are 4 piston brakes with a slightly thicker rotor. Because the tektro HD-M750 are an OEM part you need to buy them from Hase. Because I am located in Canada I contacted Anja @ https://www.hasebikesusa.com . She was able to supply a complete new set of pre-bled the tektro brakes and rotors for much less than $300-$400 so that was good.
I haven't used the new brakes much yet but they perform at least as well as the prior brakes and issues when hot.
Steve
Bob Bending
Jul 30, 2020, 2:05:57 AM7/30/20
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Hi Chris,
We still have the original (2001) Magura Louise brakes on our Pino. They have proved very reliable and have never let us down. I think I must have bled them two or three times at most since having the bike, though they could probably do with a flush and new fluid now. Pads are easy to replace too, and I have replaced the rear disc, as it was badly worn... I tend to use the rear brake a lot more than the front. On fast descents, I pump the brakes alternately if we need to control our speed, as I'm always wary of them fading or overheating. I've got cable TRP Spyres on a solo and find them ok, but not nearly as smooth as the Maguras.
Glad to hear you're pleased with the performance of the Bafang. I wouldn't be without ours now.
Bob Bending
Jul 30, 2020, 2:08:23 AM7/30/20
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2011 – not 2001!
Philip Lowe
Jul 30, 2020, 10:20:12 AM7/30/20
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Regarding Pino brakes…
The first, bought new in 2011, had Avid Code R brakes. The only issue we ever had with them was due to the hygroscopic nature of the brake fluid such that after about two years, just after starting our first ride of the season, the rear brake locked on. We got home by releasing a bit of fluid! Needless to say I learned my lesson and renewed the brake fluid front and back. And in my other hydraulic braked cycles. That said the first Pino was never subjected to any particularly stressful descents as we lived in France close to Basel and most of our time was in the rolling hills of the Sundgau or the flatter terrain of the Rhine valley.
We now have our second Pino. And we retired to the Staffordshire Moorlands adjacent to the Peak District where we spend most of our time cycling. As purchased (just before lockdown) this had the Tektro HD-M750 brakes with their nice 2.3 mm thick discs. Should be plenty good enough thought I. With the first few rides the both discs were blue and we’d suffered brake failure (not fade) as defined by the mineral oil fluid boiling and the total loss of pressure. The symptoms were predictable - as we descended I could feel the fluid expanding and pushing may hands away from the bars. The road then levels out a bit, so one lets go to allow the brakes to cool. On the next application (normally as one approaches a corner or the stoker starts squealing due to approaching 40 mph) there is far less pressure available and ones hands get much closer to or even (for the rear brake) touch the handlebars. Not nice! Stop and let it all cool down. We’ve tried intermittent hard braking, alternate front and back braking, and crawling down at 5-6 mph, all to no avail. We can’t just let it run as we’d be well over 50 mph by the time we got very far and it’s far too bumpy and twisty to be safe.
I’ve now fitted Hope Tech 3 masters with V4 calipers and 203 mm ventilated discs back and front and, currently, their e-bike specific pads (also have sintered and standard pads to try). Since the Hope system runs with the DOT 5.1 glycol based brake fluid rather than the mineral oil of the Tektro this should be better due to the higher boiling point. The Hope pistons are also synthetic not metal which should reduce heat transfer. The ventilated discs, of course, should not get so hot in the first place. Many thanks to JD Tandems for making up a read-to-fit kit for me.
If that doesn’t cure it then the only things we can do are reduce the weight of the crew and/or avoid steep descents. The trouble is the hilly areas are where the best views are! Only one outing so far but the signs are good. An update in a few days, we hope, as the weather seems to be improving.
It is amazing that there are no ideal braking systems for tandems. Too small a market. Many tandemists, of course, fit rim brake(s) as well as discs. Or an old Arai drag brake if you have derailleurs not geared hubs. This is not possible with the current Pino, unfortunately (we have an IGH). What it really needs is twin discs up front like many motorcycles. But for cooling not power. All the brakes we’ve had have been powerful enough, just not sufficiently cooled.
The first, bought new in 2011, had Avid Code R brakes. The only issue we ever had with them was due to the hygroscopic nature of the brake fluid such that after about two years, just after starting our first ride of the season, the rear brake locked on. We got home by releasing a bit of fluid! Needless to say I learned my lesson and renewed the brake fluid front and back. And in my other hydraulic braked cycles. That said the first Pino was never subjected to any particularly stressful descents as we lived in France close to Basel and most of our time was in the rolling hills of the Sundgau or the flatter terrain of the Rhine valley.
We now have our second Pino. And we retired to the Staffordshire Moorlands adjacent to the Peak District where we spend most of our time cycling. As purchased (just before lockdown) this had the Tektro HD-M750 brakes with their nice 2.3 mm thick discs. Should be plenty good enough thought I. With the first few rides the both discs were blue and we’d suffered brake failure (not fade) as defined by the mineral oil fluid boiling and the total loss of pressure. The symptoms were predictable - as we descended I could feel the fluid expanding and pushing may hands away from the bars. The road then levels out a bit, so one lets go to allow the brakes to cool. On the next application (normally as one approaches a corner or the stoker starts squealing due to approaching 40 mph) there is far less pressure available and ones hands get much closer to or even (for the rear brake) touch the handlebars. Not nice! Stop and let it all cool down. We’ve tried intermittent hard braking, alternate front and back braking, and crawling down at 5-6 mph, all to no avail. We can’t just let it run as we’d be well over 50 mph by the time we got very far and it’s far too bumpy and twisty to be safe.
I’ve now fitted Hope Tech 3 masters with V4 calipers and 203 mm ventilated discs back and front and, currently, their e-bike specific pads (also have sintered and standard pads to try). Since the Hope system runs with the DOT 5.1 glycol based brake fluid rather than the mineral oil of the Tektro this should be better due to the higher boiling point. The Hope pistons are also synthetic not metal which should reduce heat transfer. The ventilated discs, of course, should not get so hot in the first place. Many thanks to JD Tandems for making up a read-to-fit kit for me.
If that doesn’t cure it then the only things we can do are reduce the weight of the crew and/or avoid steep descents. The trouble is the hilly areas are where the best views are! Only one outing so far but the signs are good. An update in a few days, we hope, as the weather seems to be improving.
It is amazing that there are no ideal braking systems for tandems. Too small a market. Many tandemists, of course, fit rim brake(s) as well as discs. Or an old Arai drag brake if you have derailleurs not geared hubs. This is not possible with the current Pino, unfortunately (we have an IGH). What it really needs is twin discs up front like many motorcycles. But for cooling not power. All the brakes we’ve had have been powerful enough, just not sufficiently cooled.
larry black
Jul 30, 2020, 10:37:05 AM7/30/20
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We’ve had our shares of braking troubles
One huge asset we discovered on the most recent trips to New Zealand in 2018 and 2019 was our Falco hub motor.
It acts as an electric drag brake as it regenerates the batteries on any descent
We use the brakes very little.
I keep my thumb on the ‘plus-minus’ control that actuated the system one through five in either direction.
The only fly in the pie is using our new airline-carry-on-friendly LiGo batteries
They are not yet too friendly with regen as the original battery from the first trip we rented.
Because the rear hub motor reduces strain in chains and sprockets instead of adding to the strain and wear, we will not be going back to any front or mid drive motor again.
Our batteries are in a nifty bag right near the rear wheel motor with a very short cord and the control on my bars is wireless to the motor and controller so it’s less cluttered, easy to take apart, and simple
Larry and Linda
Maryland
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Head Honcho
Aug 8, 2020, 7:51:02 PM8/8/20
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It looks like most of the hydraulic options fitted to the Pino have given owners issues. After logging a bit over 100 miles on the mechanical BB7s I am more sure of our need for brakes with more stopping power. I have some TRP Spyre, the road version of the TRP Spyke on a single bike and some BB5s on a single speed mountain bike. I've never felt unsure of their stopping power with a single. I was ready to obtain some of the Tektro M750 but another Pinonaut reported experiencing disturbing brake fade.
The one place we go fast.....real fast.....on our Pino is downhill and It makes those slow uphills worth the effort. I'm going to have to bite the bullet and pick something. Given all the different options Hase has fitted, I'm going to guess they're just going for a price point since they all seem to have issues. What's a rider to do? More to come.
Chris Rust
Aug 9, 2020, 3:49:33 AM8/9/20
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We fitted a third brake which gives a lot of confidence. And gives the stoker an illusion of control.
Unfortunately the newer Grind forks don't have vee brake mounts but we are looking at the rear wheel.
I believe a number of tandemists have used BB7 for very big descents, eg in Hawaii, and the main problem was melting the plastic adjusters. I'm very happy with Spykes but I'm not allowed to hit high speeds on downhills.
Although some people say that braking power at speed is less of a problem than continuous low speed braking.
On Sun, 9 Aug 2020, 00:51 Head Honcho, <hon...@gmail.com> wrote:
It looks like most of the hydraulic options fitted to the Pino have given owners issues. After logging a bit over 100 miles on the mechanical BB7s I am more sure of our need for brakes with more stopping power. I have some TRP Spyre, the road version of the TRP Spyke on a single bike and some BB5s on a single speed mountain bike. I've never felt unsure of their stopping power with a single. I was ready to obtain some of the Tektro M750 but another Pinonaut reported experiencing disturbing brake fade.
The one place we go fast.....real fast.....on our Pino is downhill and It makes those slow uphills worth the effort. I'm going to have to bite the bullet and pick something. Given all the different options Hase has fitted, I'm going to guess they're just going for a price point since they all seem to have issues. What's a rider to do? More to come.
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kevinb...@btinternet.com
Sep 15, 2020, 2:46:04 AM9/15/20
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Hello all, I also have replaced the standard discs on my 2015 Hase Pino with Hope Tech 3 V4 brakes after experiencing serious brake fade on the original. I have also purchased these: < https://porkchopbmx.com/evolution-v-brake-bicycle-aluminum-mounts-clamps-adapters-pair-silver/ > adapters to enable me to fit (extra) cantilever brakes to the rear wheel. Have yet to fit, the rear seat stay diameter is a fraction too large, the adapters need a slight ream out to fit. Also probably needs to find some way of attaching the adapters to the small bosses on the rear seat stay (what are they for?) to help hold them in position.
On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 8:49:33 AM UTC+1, Chris Rust wrote:
We fitted a third brake which gives a lot of confidence. And gives the stoker an illusion of control.Unfortunately the newer Grind forks don't have vee brake mounts but we are looking at the rear wheel.I believe a number of tandemists have used BB7 for very big descents, eg in Hawaii, and the main problem was melting the plastic adjusters. I'm very happy with Spykes but I'm not allowed to hit high speeds on downhills.Although some people say that braking power at speed is less of a problem than continuous low speed braking.
On Sun, 9 Aug 2020, 00:51 Head Honcho, <hon...@gmail.com> wrote:
It looks like most of the hydraulic options fitted to the Pino have given owners issues. After logging a bit over 100 miles on the mechanical BB7s I am more sure of our need for brakes with more stopping power. I have some TRP Spyre, the road version of the TRP Spyke on a single bike and some BB5s on a single speed mountain bike. I've never felt unsure of their stopping power with a single. I was ready to obtain some of the Tektro M750 but another Pinonaut reported experiencing disturbing brake fade.
The one place we go fast.....real fast.....on our Pino is downhill and It makes those slow uphills worth the effort. I'm going to have to bite the bullet and pick something. Given all the different options Hase has fitted, I'm going to guess they're just going for a price point since they all seem to have issues. What's a rider to do? More to come.
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hon...@gmail.com
Sep 30, 2020, 11:00:35 PM9/30/20
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Braking News:
After more miles with the BB7 brakes and numerous adjustment, I bit the bullet and ordered two different sets of brakes (so much for trying not to squander money). First up is set of mechanical TRP Spyke calipers. Although I believe hydraulic brakes provide a better stopping solution, the Spykes were readily available for a trip that we're preparing for and I didn't want to risk not having something better than the BB7s on the bike. Plus, I didn't relish the thought of rushing to get hydraulics installed, bled and tested before our upcoming trip.
However, for the second set of brakes, I ordered a set of Shimano 4 piston hydraulic brakes, the
Shimano MT501 / BR-MT520. Those will go on one of our Pinos, perhaps sooner rather than later if the Spykes aren't at least adequate. Hase fitted / fits the XT level 4 piston brakes to some models of the Pino and the MT520s are, in online reviews and comments, compared favorably to the XT brakes.
Even though one user here panned the Tektro brakes, I tried several attempts at contacting Anja (or anyone) at Hase USA to inquire about obtaining a set of the Tektro HD-M750 without success. I hope they're more responsive to dealers than end consumers.
Next week we're hoping to start a 7 week bike and drive trip across the USA. Starting in Virginia and ending up in the San Francisco bay area. Our route will hit some of the Adventure Cycling Associations Trans-Am and Southern Tier routes with some detours thrown in to see family and friends. We've cajoled one of our kids into being our sag wagon / advance person. Since my riding companion won't willingly camp, having a driver available gives us flexibility in choosing the route for our riding days without worrying about lodging along the route.
Chris Rust
Oct 1, 2020, 2:49:41 AM10/1/20
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I have Spykes on our Pino and my solo recumbent. I really did not like BB7 but the Spykes are fine. Important to have that 3mm key handy and adjust the brakes at the start of a long ride.
I find them easy to look after if I was planning a serious expedition I would probably pack a spare caliper and some pads, any brake cable or MTB style lever will work so you have a simple to repair anywhere setup.
You'll get more stopping power with hydraulics but I love the simplicity of the Spykes. It's always best to have a third brake on a loaded tandem if you are anywhere near proper hills. We used to have a vee brake on the front forks but our replacement grind forks don't have a mount so well probably fit one to the rear.
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Philip Lowe
Oct 1, 2020, 4:56:50 AM10/1/20
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Although we’ve experienced brake failure with the Tektro HD-M750 I do not claim they are a bad system. They would be excellent for their designed purpose i.e. e-MTB http://www.tektro.com/products.php?p=255 . It is just that they are not up to what we need i.e. to slow and stop 150 kg crew, 35 kg e-tandem and 20 kg luggage descending 20%+ long winding bumpy gradients. With the possible exception of Santana https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/ there do not appear to be any disc braking systems designed to handle the weight of a tandem plus crew and luggage on steep winding descents. All other manufacturers use what they can get away with on a cost versus performance basis (perfectly good business logic) then let the dealers cope with occasional fallout (many many thanks to JD Tandems for helping us find a system which works for us).
As mentioned in another thread we’ve recently changed to a Hope vented disc system. This means we have a complete Tektro HD-M750 system adjusted for a Pino filed away. Most likely it’ll just stay there with the perishables ageing slowly, which is a waste. If another Pino owner should like to have it they are welcome for only the cost of the postage and packing, or for nothing if you’re prepared to collect. Just send a personal email if you are interested.
Phil & Sue
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Chris Rust
Oct 1, 2020, 5:48:26 AM10/1/20
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One thing to bear in mind is that Santana are talking about a monster 10" disc on a full size front wheel, The Pino's smaller front wheel gives a huge amount of mechanical advantage for the 200mm (8") disc.
Heat is always a problem of course, we have a cast centre disk (Hope possibly, I can't remember) to try to reduce risk of overheating. I think I looked at those Santana calipers a good while back and the prices were discouraging.Having a complete set of Vee brakes for the stoker would give you all the security you need I guess, it's a shame the Grind fork no longer comes with brake mounts. My partner is pretty good at not grabbing the single vee brake unless requested. We've never been forced to use it but it's nice to know we have the security, plus spreading the heat load on long downhills.
Chris
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David Hunter
Oct 1, 2020, 6:01:14 AM10/1/20
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I have changed my BB7's (on my gravel bike admittedly) to TRP Hy/Rd so have cable actuated hydraulics. Couln't be more impressed and would imagine that this "might" a better upgrade than Spykes.
Head Honcho
Oct 1, 2020, 9:02:31 AM10/1/20
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This is for Phil. I'd like to take you up on your offer of the Tektro brakes and can certainly compensate you more than just postage. I'm unable to privately message you for some reason. Perhaps you can message me?
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