I had to lock down the wiki
Citizen Rogue
T.
--
tara 'miss rogue' hunt
agent provocateur
Citizen Agency (www.citizenagency.com)
blog: www.horsepigcow.com
phone: 415-694-1951
fax: 415-727-5335
Samuel Rose
ironically, I was trying to get in to revert spam on the Distributism
page.
Over on meatball wiki, we're playing around with the idea of diverting
spammers to a survey page, in the hopes of learning more about who they
are, and why they do what they do. Over time, we may be able to steer
them into doing something that is more constructive for wiki
communities they are currently spamming. But, first we need to learn
more about why they are doing what they are doing, and what their
conditions of existence are. See:
http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?SpammerSurvey
I know it seems far fetched at first, but I firmly believe that it is
possible to redirect the energies of these spammign people if we
understand more about them as actual people,and then try to steer them
towards doing something that they will find as appealing as spamming
(which I assume they are doing for money). Especially if the spamming
alternative activities can help some of them improve their local
conditions. I know many of these spammers are in places like Nigeria,
China, Indonesia, poorer parts of Russia. Maybe we'll learn of other
places if the spammer survey is successful. I am convinced that there
has to be some way to engage these people, rather than just to fight an
info war against them. And I have a hunch that many of them are doing
this because they are desperate for money. Hopefully we'll know more in
time.
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> Sorry guys, I'm spending too much time cleaning out spam. I may need to move it somewhere that requires registration. I effing HATE spammers.<br><br>T.<br clear="all"><br>-- <br>tara 'miss rogue' hunt<br>agent provocateur<br>
> Citizen Agency (<a href="http://www.citizenagency.com">www.citizenagency.com</a>)<br>blog: <a href="http://www.horsepigcow.com">www.horsepigcow.com</a><br>phone: 415-694-1951<br>fax: 415-727-5335
>
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Samuel Rose
some of the ideas we're talking about at
http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?SharedAntiSpam
Citizen Rogue
Are you sure they are really all from poor countries? Or is that just the 'perception'? I imagine some fat cat sitting in his den in Tuscon or something, pasting his gambling sites into wikis all day long.
T.
Samuel Rose
working for an ISP for a number years, I know for sure that many of
them are from poor countries,while some of them are likely some jerk
sitting in his boxers somewhere in the US trying to make a buck through
adsense by boosting page rank.
I have spent a lot of time in different wikis helping people fight
spam, and revert spam. I've also spent a lot of time helping ISP
customers deal with email spam. And it seems like a never-ending
battle. And, it seems like we fight the battle with technological
solutions, while I believe that spam may actually be a social problem
at it's root (after all, it is people who are doing the spamming). Yet,
there is no short term way to keep the spammers from ruining your open
online space without the technological security measures.
As you mentioned in your blog posting, You are asking the wrong
question: part II, (although referring to a different context)
"Understanding the other perspectives (i.e. seeing it from their point
of view) is good for you." Yet you also mentioned that "It is best not
to try to 'change' the perspectives of others."
I agree with you. In fact, I believe that it is a losing battle to try
and change people's pradigm or worldview directly. But, I do believe
that if people are ready for change, that you can create the conditions
for change, and people *may* change, if they are ready to do so. In
order to create those conditions, we need to first understand why they
are doing what they are doing from a psychological and social
perspective. Very few people have looked at the spamming problem from a
psycho-social perspective. Very little information exists about who the
people are that create and disseminate spam, and what their lives are
like, and why they do it. (other than the 419 email scammers, who are
true scum, and are well documented at http://419eater.com). Mostly,
people haven't looked at this because the internet lends these people
anonymity. But, I think it's possible to get them to share more
information, which can give clearer pictures over time of who these
people are. And this information can be used as a basis for thinking
about ways obsolete the activity of spamming, or steer energies into a
different and more constructive direction.
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> Wow...you have such a positive attitude when it comes to spam. I just want to scratch their eyeballs out.<br><br>Are you sure they are really all from poor countries? Or is that just the 'perception'? I imagine some fat cat sitting in his den in Tuscon or something, pasting his gambling sites into wikis all day long.
> <br><br>T.<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/31/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Samuel Rose</b> <<a href="mailto:samue...@gmail.com">samue...@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
> <br>Also, wiki communities that are struggling with spam might benefit from<br>some of the ideas we're talking about at<br><a href="http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?SharedAntiSpam">http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?SharedAntiSpam
> </a><br><br><br></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>tara 'miss rogue' hunt<br>agent provocateur<br>Citizen Agency (<a href="http://www.citizenagency.com">www.citizenagency.com</a>)<br>blog: <a href="http://www.horsepigcow.com">www.horsepigcow.com
> </a><br>phone: 415-694-1951<br>fax: 415-727-5335
>
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/pd
"I believe that it is a losing battle to try and change people's
pradigm or worldview directly."
Oh well, the we need change how paradigm of the spammers that's for
sure. and btw, most of the spammers are not in 3rd world countries. The
fight has become very sophisticated, as they seem to be one step ahead
of the infosec peeps. Take a Botnot out, and another pops up somewhere
else.,
I am surpised that the pinko wiki.. is attracting spam. Is this just
defacement of pages by a user or more lby an automated method ?? I
have not viewed the Wiki for a long time, so I cant judge
Samuel Rose
bu tthe IP's of many of the people who are spamming on a lot of the
wikis I am on seems to be coming from outside of the US. And, in the
case of the wikis I am active on, it appears to be not bots, but
people.
This is why we want to experiment with seeing if we can extract
information out of them. So that we can know more about who they are,
and why they are doing it (or if they are bots made to look like
people). And even if they are bots, who are the people working the
bots, etc
/pd
information out of them"
That in itself is a problem. Nobody wants to enter a survery.
"What if some of these forms are able to be modified over time, in
order to fool a cross section of some of the spamming people into
revealing more about who they are, and why and how they do this. "
Why fool people ?? if IP is know, throw it into the blackhole and if
user returns zone them into the tarpit !!
"And even if they are bots, who are the people working the bots, etc "
I have more info here if interested..
http://peterdawson.typepad.com/blog/2006/10/vulnerability_a.html
Anyhoot, we should not digress this converstation into an infosec
thread !! :)-
FWIW - I have no problem with Tara's locking down edits to the wiki
!! In fact, just by taking a look at recent changes, she seems to be
the main contributor too !!
Leo Romero
been using Wikia, which has pretty good spam control*, probably from
the years of experience of people who grew up fighting spam in
Wikipedia. If you want, I can hook you up with Wikia folks who might be
able to help you set up shop there. You'd be a great addition to the
community, and I also think that the community can help the Pinko
cause. Thanks; Leo