Misc.

[127178]

Evening all,

It's been awhile since I last posted anything here but now that the flying season is over I have a couple of odds and ends questions.  This was only my second flying season with my ship and unfortunately the high temps this summer, 90's-100, made assembly difficult. 

1.  I was told to use negative 8 degrees on initial takeoff but I kept dropping a wing which the owner of the other PIK 20 where I fly says is normal.  I tried three takeoffs at zero degree flaps and never dropped a wingtip, what do you guys use?

2.  Has anyone ever checked to see exactly how much flap comes in when turning the flap handle?  I was told one turn is equal to about 30 degrees, two turns about 60 degrees but that doesn't match up to the indicator arm.  

3.  Where can I get a replacement flap handle wrap?  Mine is foam and beginning to show its age.  I also need to know how to remove it.

Thanks,

Keith

[Michael Stockhill]

As PIK 20E is self powered for launch it is perhaps different. I use flaps 8 or 12 from start of takeoff roll and can level the wings with positive aileron authority within 50-100 feet ground roll. Flaps negative or neutral might give a bit faster initial acceleration, but I don't need the distraction of extending flaps during the takeoff roll.

20E has different flap actuation.

Will be fun to see what others say.

Michael Stockhill
Polson, MT

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[Riku Rissanen]

Hi, 

The A/B model flap crank is as follows:

• First full turn - 30 degrees
• Next turns are only 15 degrees , so 2 full turns is 45, 3 turns 60, 4 = 75, 5=90.

I calculate them when I land so I know how much flaps I have taken out.

Rgds

Riku

---

From: pi...@googlegroups.com <pi...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Michael Stockhill <sto...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2024 6:19 AM
To: 127178 <keith...@gmail.com>
Cc: PIK20 <pi...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [PIK20] Misc.

 

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[Francis Savage]

My standard takeoff roll in my 20-E begins with 0° flaps. After reaching 45Kt, I lower 4°+ flaps and the glider lifts off without need for any positive pitch input. Been using this method for 7 years with no problems.

Frank

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[bob pye]

PIK20b, 

So the flight manual says max 5deg down is the max permissible on take off. 

My personal preference, 

 For aero tow: if there is a light wind or cross wind I use 2 degrees positive to retain aileron authority. Keep stick well forward.  Once I have confidence in the ailerons (certainly once the tail wheel is off the ground) I move to zero. I do not move to a positive flap during an aero tow. As part of my preflight checks I practice moving from the flap handle to the release handle as Murphys Law says the launch fail will happen whilst my hand is on the flap handle. 

For winch launches, everything at zero, my hand on the release for the inevitable launch failure. 

Here is a new question:

You are on Aero Tow and the tug is approaching cloud base and decides to slow down!!! In a conventionally air-braked glider can extend the air brake to increase drag thereby maintaining position behind the tug with no slack on the rope. 

What to do in a PIC20b, if one was to apply positive flap the glider will gain height on an already slowing and potentially descending tug.. this has happened twice in the last few years, on both occasions I have released rather than extend my flaps and ended up back on airfield rather sooner than intended. 

WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

Bob

Pictures

FL110 over Wales UK

Landing random airfield England 

Two pictures taken from a friend in her Libelle Wave soaring in Wales UK

Taxi'd to the gate after landing out on the way home. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pik20/94062C32-ED77-4EF2-AC60-8F03C3E58AD3%40internode.on.net.

[xjos...@aol.com]

If you start your T/O roll with positive flaps you might scratch your aileron.

It works. But I recommend negative flaps to avoid damage.

Not to mention the aerodynamic advantage.

[127178]

Afternoon all,

Riku, thanks for the flap deflection information.  

Bob, your comment about a max 5 degree down deflection on takeoff made me look at the manual again.  I don't have an original book so I looked at the one I had downloaded from the internet and it mentioned 5 degrees for winch launch but I didn't see anything about deflection for aerotow which is what we use at our club.   I haven't had any issues with approaching cloud base or a slowing towplane, as you mentioned, but I've had a couple of really rough tows where the towplane and I were getting beat up and we got way out of alignment and I pulled the release rather than try and ride it out.  I've tried side slipping with minimal results in that situation but since the control surfaces are so small, unlike the barn door control surfaces on Schweizer's, the response wasn't as good as I would have liked so I pulled the release.

xjos, I hadn't thought about dragging a wingtip with an aileron.  I fly off pavement but I'll have to check that out when the soaring season starts. 

Thanks,

Keith

[neilbraithwaite.gm]

Hi All

Interesting thread. 

I have a 20D and exclusively aerotow it. I start off in negative flap and pull in to positive as soon as we've gathered some speed, this lifts the glider off and needs to be done gently, but it still has a tendency to drop a wing on take-off. The wingtip runner needs to be briefed to run. I haven't figured out a better way but I don't like switching hands from the release to the flap lever. Obviously I can't take my eyes off the tug at this stage so I'm not too concerned about the actual flap position I end up in. I sort it out at a safe height. 

On landing I also switch to negative flap as soon as I touch down to prevent a wing drop. 

I know of at last one type where the flight manual suggests starting the aerotow with the airbrakes out. Apparently they deflect air over the ailerons and increase their effectiveness. Obviously not an option on the B but I wonder if anyone has tried this in a D or E? Again, not ideal as your hand isn't on the release

Neil

-------- Original message --------

From: 127178 <keith...@gmail.com>

Date: 31/12/2024 20:11 (GMT+00:00)

To: PIK20 <pi...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [PIK20] Misc.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pik20/165c93ab-5d0f-4e06-af8e-9feede363f97n%40googlegroups.com.

[klau...@googlemail.com]

One other problem with aero-tow take-offs under crosswind conditions is, when the glider is positioned exactly in the middle behind the motor plane. Then the wake turbulence from the tow plane's propeller is deflected sideways by the wind and only hits one of the glider's wings. This wing generates more lift and the wing pointing towards the wind goes down as a result.

This can be prevented by positioning the glider laterally behind the tow plane.

 

Regards

 

Klaus Rühenbeck

 

Von: pi...@googlegroups.com <pi...@googlegroups.com> Im Auftrag von bob pye
Gesendet: Dienstag, 31. Dezember 2024 20:05
An: Francis Savage <franka...@internode.on.net>; Michael Stockhill <sto...@gmail.com>; 127178 <keith...@gmail.com>; PIK20 <pi...@googlegroups.com>
Betreff: Re: [PIK20] Misc. AND A NEW QUESTION

 

PIK20b, 

 

So the flight manual says max 5deg down is the max permissible on take off. 

 

My personal preference, 

 For aero tow: if there is a light wind or cross wind I use 2 degrees positive to retain aileron authority. Keep stick well forward.  Once I have confidence in the ailerons (certainly once the tail wheel is off the ground) I move to zero. I do not move to a positive flap during an aero tow. As part of my preflight checks I practice moving from the flap handle to the release handle as Murphys Law says the launch fail will happen whilst my hand is on the flap handle. 

 

For winch launches, everything at zero, my hand on the release for the inevitable launch failure. 

 

Here is a new question:

 

You are on Aero Tow and the tug is approaching cloud base and decides to slow down!!! In a conventionally air-braked glider can extend the air brake to increase drag thereby maintaining position behind the tug with no slack on the rope. 

What to do in a PIC20b, if one was to apply positive flap the glider will gain height on an already slowing and potentially descending tug.. this has happened twice in the last few years, on both occasions I have released rather than extend my flaps and ended up back on airfield rather sooner than intended. 

 

WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

 

Bob

Pictures

FL110 over Wales UK

Landing random airfield England 

Two pictures taken from a friend in her Libelle Wave soaring in Wales UK

Taxi'd to the gate after landing out on the way home. 

 

 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pik20/6BC3D1B2-93A3-4F35-A005-A3F22CB8F59F%40hotmail.com.

[Riku Rissanen]

And one thing also is, does the PIK have (A or B model) the interconnection or not. I always start with -8 with all models. Then to +0 or +2 dry and +4 ..+6 if with water. No problems.

Rgds, 

Riku

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From: 'klau...@gmail.com' via PIK20 <pi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2025 4:32 PM
To: 'bob pye' <bob...@hotmail.com>; 'Francis Savage' <franka...@internode.on.net>; 'Michael Stockhill' <sto...@gmail.com>; '127178' <keith...@gmail.com>; 'PIK20' <pi...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: AW: [PIK20] Misc. AND A NEW QUESTION

 

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[Riku Rissanen]

And one more view:)

The aileron effectiveness very much different in A/B than D/E. The flaperons have really nice effectiveness even in slow speeds, but the short ailerons of the A/B require the negative flaps. Especially in the interconnected gliders. Note! B model flight manual states that the flaps are needed to take in after touchdown for better aileron response.

I have flown 1500h+ with flapped gliders, 1000h+ with self launchers. The use of flaps (from negative to positive) is normal procedure and doesnt take too much of your capability in the start. This is just a personal point of view.

Rgds, 

Riku

---

From: pi...@googlegroups.com <pi...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Riku Rissanen <rikuri...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2025 7:22 PM
To: 'bob pye' <bob...@hotmail.com>; 'Francis Savage' <franka...@internode.on.net>; 'Michael Stockhill' <sto...@gmail.com>; '127178' <keith...@gmail.com>; 'PIK20' <pi...@googlegroups.com>; klau...@gmail.com <klau...@googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: [PIK20] Misc. AND A NEW QUESTION

 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pik20/AM9PR02MB6676F72DF9E0825C59CF2C57D50B2%40AM9PR02MB6676.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com.

[bob pye]

See attached manual includes repair schemes. I also have PDFs for a lot of the original design drawings. 

Bob

Sent from my iPhone

On 31 Dec 2024, at 20:11, 127178 <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Afternoon all,

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pik20/165c93ab-5d0f-4e06-af8e-9feede363f97n%40googlegroups.com.

[david heffel]

whie i had a D model, many times in the scenario you described.......I would just skid the glider to either decrease airspeed or descend slightly when on tow. with the belly hook, this worked very well.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pik20/AM9PR02MB667626C4B848E9B0B86FD832D5152%40AM9PR02MB6676.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com.

[Riku Rissanen]

Hi, 

Does some remember / know, what is the stick diameter ? We have one LX Joy stick control for ASW 20, dia is 24mm. Wondering if this fits to PIK-20.

Rgds, 

Riku

[Janos Bauer]

Here you are;)

Janó

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[Riku Rissanen]

Hi, 

Thanks!

Riku

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From: Janos Bauer <bauerj...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2025 8:22 PM
To: Riku Rissanen <rikuri...@hotmail.com>
Cc: bob pye <bob...@hotmail.com>; keith...@gmail.com <keith...@gmail.com>; PIK20 <pi...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [PIK20] PIK-20A/B stick dimensions