Mounting an RT-11 RK05 disk on RSTS/e 10.1

[Bob Flanders]

Have you ever been --|this close|--, but just can't find a way?

I got the trek52.bas file on an RT-11 RK05 disk, but can't get RSTS/E 10.1  to mount it. 

Tried different version of the MOUNT command, but it mostly wants a pack ID.  With the command

    mount /nowrite /private /override dk0:

I get very close, but no cigar --> ??Disk pack mount error

This is in the DCL run time system. 

Clues appreciated.

Regards,

Bob

[Johnny Billquist]

You cannot mount the disk "normally". It don't contain an RSTS/E file
system. You use FIT under RSTS/E to access RT-11 formatted disks.

Johnny

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CA%2BcnuobpV8U4MPA0LmrMS43cVCkh0PiA0aDmpXxN-eFKxq7Tdg%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CA%2BcnuobpV8U4MPA0LmrMS43cVCkh0PiA0aDmpXxN-eFKxq7Tdg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

[Bob Flanders]

Weird .. google "RSTS FIT" -- weird first result.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/91ba1ca8-e1a8-fc3d-c54d-099884208696%40softjar.se.

[Anton Lavrentiev]

Try Google "RSTS/E FIT", and also take a look here (one of the top
search results):

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/rsts/V10/AA-EX13C-TC_RSTS_E_V10_Quick_Reference_Aug90.pdf

Page 4-12

HTH

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CA%2BcnuoaEO685xxYNZ8RjpRpnPgphKOt%3D7%3DqJRwEd%3DH9%2B0CfXGQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Clem Cole]

Below...

On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 3:22 PM Bob Flanders <bob.fl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tried different version of the MOUNT command, but it mostly wants a pack ID.  With the command

    mount /nowrite /private /override dk0:

Note, I'm a UNIX guy and this is really a  Paul Koning question.  But I'll take a shot, considering from a different exchange this last week, I discovered/do not think he reads this mailing list.   

I was always under the impression that RSTS does not support mounting 'foreign' file systems like modern UNIX systems.  Instead, RSTS has a support program like the old UNIX 'rtpip' program for R/W of RT-11 images and 'DOS Tools' for MS-DOS ones - i.e. a specific program that can directly interpret and operate on a (raw) RT11 formatted disk.  IIRC The RSTS program is called FIT [and I have no idea what was called that -- ask someone like Paul from the RSTS team].

I have not messed with RSTS in a long time and I fear I have forgotten the specific command incantation -- so I don't want to lead you astray - rather point you on how to figure it out.  But my memory of how I solved the problem of getting files from my UNIX system to a simh RSTS RK05 image was by using rtpip(1) to create/add files from UNIX to an RT-11 image and then fire up RSTS and run FIT to pull the files over.  

This UNIX script will pull the V10 docs off bitsavers to your RPi or the like.   Check out the Utilities Reference manual for how to use FIT:

#!/bin.sh
LIST="AA-2623D-TC_BASIC_PLUS_Lanuage_Manual_Dec1981.pd

f AA-2642H-TC_RSTS_E_V10_Documentation_Directory_Aug1990.pdf AA-2669K-TC_RSTS_E_V10_System_Installation_and_Update_Guide_Aug1990.pdf AA-2762H-TC_RSTS_E_V10_System_Managers_Guide_Aug1990.pdf AA-3337B-TC_RSTS_E_RUNOFF_Users_Guide_Jul1975.pdf AA-5072D-TC_RSTS_E_V10_Task_Builder_Reference_Manual_Aug1990.pdf AA-5246H-TC_RSTS_E_V10.0_Release_Notes_Nov1990.pdf AA-CF03A-TC_RSTS_E_Guide_to_Writing_Command_Procedures_Jun1985.pdf AA-CI67B-TC_PDP-11_Sort_Merge_Users_Guide_Aug1990.pdf AA-D749A-TC_RSTS_E_Programmers_Utility_Manuals_May1978.pdf AA-EX13C-TC_RSTS_E_V10_Quick_Reference_Aug90.pdf AA-EZ09B-TC_RSTS_E_Programming_Manual_Aug1990.pdf AA-EZ10B-TC_RSTS_E_System_Directives_Manual_Aug1990.pdf AA-EZ12B-TC_RSTS_E_System_Users_Guide_Aug1990.pdf AA-EZ13C-TC_RSTS_E_Quick_Reference_Guide_Aug1990.pdf AA-JS09A-TC_RSX-11M-PLUS_Debugging_Reference_Manual_Sep1987.pdf AA-K443A-TC_Introduction_to_the_EDT_Editor_Aug1981.pdf AA-KX10A-TC_PDP-11_MACRO-11_Reference_Manual_Oct1987.pdf AA-L997E-TC_RSTS_E_Maintenance_Handbook_Aug1990.pdf AA-M213A-TC_RSTS_E_RT-11_Utilities_Manual_Dec1981.pdf AA-M476A-TK_EDT_Editor_Manual_Sep1983.pdf"

for FILE in ${LIST}
do
    curl -O http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/rsts/V10/${FILE}
done

I might also suggest that you check out this GitHub repository for some RSTS resources, it may have hints, and/or look for some of Paul's emails with an Internet search.   

https://github.com/agn453/RSTS-E 

ᐧ

[Bob Flanders]

Hi Clem,

Thanks for your response. I do try to read the list -- I seek but don't find.

Here's the problem. I can't get anything to work. 

I started by downloading the trek52.bas from github, but couldn't find a way to load it into RSTS. I tried it on my PIDP with RSTS/E 7 (i think that the PIDP version) but it wasn't working with that. when I redirected using pip trek52.bas=kb: and pasted it, there are a lot of errors in the file.

Then I though "Wait a tic ... I have a pdp on my mac!" so I tried it there. No banana, cigar, or other metaphor.

Then I though, "Hmm.. someone mentioned RT-11", I'll try that. It took a bit being unfamiliar with RT, but I got it on an RK05... but then couldn't figger out how to read it in RSTS. Mounts are no go. but someone mentioned FIT.

So I tried FIT .. and I got the file into RSTS, but it has the same errors.

So now I am thinking that maybe UNIX and Linux variants use LF for line endings ... maybe the file needs CRLF. So later I will try getting the repo on windows and trying it from there.

If this loads without errors, I still have to get a VT52 emulator to talk to the pdp over IP. 

Once I get it running, I'll probably put up a repo or a post with detailed instructions on how to get it working. I bet DECNET would be the beez kneez to get this file in there, but I don't have a clue.

Here's the unfortunate thing. I am sure Johnny (and most of you all here) are great with PDP's and the various OS's, but I only worked on RSTS/E 6 or 7 in the late seventies (with very fond memories) and come from a mainframe background. I just don't have the depth in DEC that is needed. But even trying to make my way through it all, there are barriers like the PDFs not having text search and sometimes not knowing even what to search.

Oh well ... plod on. The search is fun, but frustrating. Feels like "stone knives and bearskins". :D

Regards to all and deep thanks for all you contribute to keeping this stuff alive.

Regards,

Bob

[Warner Losh]

On Sun, May 29, 2022, 1:20 PM Bob Flanders <bob.fl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Clem,

Thanks for your response. I do try to read the list -- I seek but don't find.

Here's the problem. I can't get anything to work. 

I started by downloading the trek52.bas from github, but couldn't find a way to load it into RSTS. I tried it on my PIDP with RSTS/E 7 (i think that the PIDP version) but it wasn't working with that. when I redirected using pip trek52.bas=kb: and pasted it, there are a lot of errors in the file.

Iirc, the RSTS command line is a basic interpreter. What happens if you enter the program there and then save it with the SAVE command? Or maybe you need to run BASIC first. It's been a long time....

I also have a dim memory of CR NUL needing to be in BASIC programs that were generated by other basic programs, but it's been a long span of years since last I sat in front of a PDP-11 running RSTS/e....

Warner

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CA%2BcnuoZBXys4wFMAiDaF1xxDD43zN5%3D8zxCx19r14KBQchQ5jw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Tony Nicholson]

Bob,

On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 5:22:20 AM UTC+10 Bob wrote:

Have you ever been --|this close|--, but just can't find a way?

I got the trek52.bas file on an RT-11 RK05 disk, but can't get RSTS/E 10.1  to mount it. 

I’m assuming you have built a RSTS/E monitor supporting RK05 drives and it is active.

Tried different version of the MOUNT command, but it mostly wants a pack ID.  With the command

    mount /nowrite /private /override dk0:

I get very close, but no cigar --> ??Disk pack mount error

$ allocate dk0:

$ show disks

.. DK0: should be shown as non-file structured (NFS) and allocated to your job.

$ fit dk0:/rt/li

.. directory of RT-11 volume displayed

$ fit sy:=dk0:trek52.bas/rt

.. file is copied to the system disk

$ deallocate dk0:

$  switch basic

Ready

old trek52

Ready

run

..

FIT may need to be installed by your startup file sy:[0,1]start.com (uncomment the define / system /command for it).

Tony

[Tony Nicholson]

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 5:20:54 AM UTC+10 Bob wrote:

[snip]

So I tried FIT .. and I got the file into RSTS, but it has the same errors.

So now I am thinking that maybe UNIX and Linux variants use LF for line endings ... maybe the file needs CRLF. So later I will try getting the repo on windows and trying it from there.

BASIC-Plus source files should be in ASCII with CR LF line endings - except for a continuation line.  The old (pre V7) used a LF CR NUL, and later versions accept a line ending in an & CR LF to mean the statement continues on the next line (compatible with BASIC-Plus2).

If you want to be adventurous you can use TECO to repair the source file.

Tony

[Clem Cole]

This is from one the original RSTS developers.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Paul Koning <paulk...@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, May 30, 2022 at 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [PiDP-11] Mounting an RT-11 RK05 disk on RSTS/e 10.1
To: Clem Cole <cl...@ccc.com>
Cc: Bob Flanders <bob.fl...@gmail.com>, [PiDP-11] <pid...@googlegroups.com>

On May 29, 2022, at 11:21 AM, Clem Cole <cl...@ccc.com> wrote:

Below...

On Sat, May 28, 2022 at 3:22 PM Bob Flanders <bob.fl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tried different version of the MOUNT command, but it mostly wants a pack ID.  With the command

    mount /nowrite /private /override dk0:

Note, I'm a UNIX guy and this is really a  Paul Koning question.  But I'll take a shot, considering from a different exchange this last week, I discovered/do not think he reads this mailing list.   

I was always under the impression that RSTS does not support mounting 'foreign' file systems like modern UNIX systems.  Instead, RSTS has a support program like the old UNIX 'rtpip' program for R/W of RT-11 images and 'DOS Tools' for MS-DOS ones - i.e. a specific program that can directly interpret and operate on a (raw) RT11 formatted disk.  IIRC The RSTS program is called FIT [and I have no idea what was called that -- ask someone like Paul from the RSTS team].

That's correct.  "mount" is only for RSTS file structure disks, or for magtapes.  Non-RSTS disks are accessed by separate tools, in "non file structured" mode.  In RSTS, that is done by the program referrring to the device name without any mount operation.

The RSTS tool for accessing RT format disks is called "FIT"; it should be part of the standard software installation.

paul

ᐧ

[Clem Cole]

I think the sequence is this:

1.) fire up simh/pdp11

2.) allocate a virtual RK05 disk to an empty UNIX file <maybe call it rk05_taxi.img>

3.) boot rt11

4.) format the virtual disk

5.) exit simh

6.) create the file on your mac that you want to send to RSTS with vim/emacs etc...

7.) unix2dos(1) to put it in DOS, RT11 and RSTS format

8.) rtpip(1) to put it in the rk05 RT11 image - rk05_taxi.img

9.) fire up simh/pdp11.

10.) assign rk05_taxi.img to one of the RK05 devices

11.) boot RSTS

12.) allocate that RK05 as a non-structured disk for RSTS

13.) run FIT to copy it to your local RSTS disk

14.) deallocate the RK05

15.) run your program from RSTS.

ᐧ