PDP11 Programming card reproduction

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chu...@gmail.com

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Jan 27, 2021, 12:57:10 PM1/27/21
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(I thought I'd start a new topic about John's question:)

"I got a nice clean card on eBay, and was thinking of getting it professionally reproduced. Would anyone else be willing to pay for it? Would I get sued? :-)"

Yes, I'd be willing to pay for a quality reproduction of your card. Given that people are trying to sell the card for $150 and $500 on ebay, I suspect there are a few others out there who aren't in our group who'd be interested in copies also.

-Chuck

 

Google

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Jan 27, 2021, 6:04:44 PM1/27/21
to chu...@gmail.com, [PiDP-11]
I would buy one.
GJM

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Cesar Gimenes

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Jan 27, 2021, 6:08:10 PM1/27/21
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I would buy one too!
looks fantastic

Cesar

Chris Berry

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Jan 28, 2021, 3:54:04 AM1/28/21
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Me too !! Definately :-) 

Tom Wilson

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Jan 28, 2021, 6:51:24 AM1/28/21
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Ok. I’m willing to lay out a new card, if everyone is that interested. If someone who has one of those cards can get measurements, maybe someone else can investigate what it takes to print them. If it’s just legal size carsdstock, that should be something we can just have done at Kinko’s or Office Depot. 

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Bill Smith

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Jan 28, 2021, 8:30:01 AM1/28/21
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On Jan 28, 2021, at 6:51 AM, Tom Wilson <wils...@gmail.com> wrote:



Paul Birkel

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Jan 28, 2021, 8:37:19 AM1/28/21
to Tom Wilson, [PiDP-11]

It’s 7” x 16.75”.  With four folds.  So an odd size.

 

From: pid...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pid...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Wilson
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2021 6:51 AM
To: Chris Berry
Cc: Google; [PiDP-11]
Subject: Re: [PiDP-11] PDP11 Programming card reproduction

 

Ok. I’m willing to lay out a new card, if everyone is that interested. If someone who has one of those cards can get measurements, maybe someone else can investigate what it takes to print them. If it’s just legal size carsdstock, that should be something we can just have done at Kinko’s or Office Depot. 

 

Al Schemmer

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Jan 28, 2021, 8:49:18 AM1/28/21
to Paul Birkel, Tom Wilson, [PiDP-11]

I didn’t reply all.

 

Try printing it on 11x17 synthetic paper and then cut to size after printed, will make a nice waterproof print.

That paper is a bit expensive but very nice.

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Bill Smith

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Jan 28, 2021, 8:51:13 AM1/28/21
to Paul Birkel, Tom Wilson, [PiDP-11]
Mine measure 17” as per the photo. It could be that you didn’t have it perfectly flat when you measured?

On Jan 28, 2021, at 8:37 AM, Paul Birkel <pbi...@gmail.com> wrote:


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Andrew Yeomans

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Jan 28, 2021, 9:21:30 AM1/28/21
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I have 2 (!) cards. Looking closely at them, one looks a good quality first-generation print, with the red half-tone on the WORD FORMAT picture nice and even. That is 428.7 mm x 179.0 mm.
The other looks like a second-generation print, copied from an earlier one, as the half-tone is not so even, and the text is a bit darker. Possibly the cardboard was a bit more absorbent, giving more "dot gain", but I think it's more likely to be an official copy that wasn't reproduced perfectly. That one is 429.5 mm x 180.1 mm.

I should be able to get a good quality scan - in two halves - if you like. I think my scanner does 600 dpi.

I even used them today to convert some ASCII!

Andrew Yeomans

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Jan 28, 2021, 9:24:09 AM1/28/21
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And thickness is about 0.28 mm - from measuring 10 sections together.

Paul Birkel

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Jan 28, 2021, 9:40:05 AM1/28/21
to Bill Smith, Tom Wilson, [PiDP-11]

I actually have four of these, in various states of well-used markup and abuse.  The longest is 16 13/16” long, so there’s a small bit of variation.  I doubt that the variation is critical and probably just represents different printers, although they all claim “July 1975”.

Anton Lavrentiev

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Jan 28, 2021, 11:11:58 AM1/28/21
to Al Schemmer, Paul Birkel, Tom Wilson, [PiDP-11]
Even on regular heavy paper 11x17 print looks good

I printed it on the regular letter size 8.5x11 (A4 should be very similar), and it's matching my pidp11 as a scaled-down replica LOL I glued a packaging-slip plastic envelope to the back of pidp11, to keep the card there -- very handy, and looks nice, too -- the card's red PDP-11 title sticks out just right above

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/DM5PR14MB1692E081A70032D10E4A43B6F5BA9%40DM5PR14MB1692.namprd14.prod.outlook.com.

chu...@gmail.com

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Jan 28, 2021, 12:20:53 PM1/28/21
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I think that if you're going to take the time to make them - you'll want to go as close to the original as possible, which to my mind includes printing on coated card stock, not plain paper.

Anton Lavrentiev

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Jan 28, 2021, 1:19:26 PM1/28/21
to chu...@gmail.com, [PiDP-11]
It's good enough for me :-)  I think I know the PDP11 instruction set by heart now 


To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/7b4a9866-74cc-448c-bc84-434c8ecb690en%40googlegroups.com.
IMG_20210128_131653366.jpg

Tom Wilson

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Feb 4, 2021, 5:50:08 AM2/4/21
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I started working on this tonight. I was going to use Scribus, which is a proper Desktop Publishing program, but it's just too "fiddly" for this kind of work, so I switched over to Inkscape. 

Here's tonight's progress (it's huge, since Inkscape is working at 300DPI)

programmer card.png

Boris Bokowski

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Feb 4, 2021, 5:57:44 AM2/4/21
to Tom Wilson, [PiDP-11]
Looks great, thank you for doing this!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/0417660f-9f41-453b-9173-3bc9dd2fea40n%40googlegroups.com.

Andrew Yeomans

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Feb 4, 2021, 7:36:48 AM2/4/21
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Does someone know the font used on the programming card, or have it in a modern format? It looks the same as used on other Digital handbooks.
Using that ought to minimise the size of any Inkscape file. Though in my experience, don't rely on SVG readers to lay out text identically, so you may need to use individual character positioning.

If anyone needs a 600 dpi scan of the card, I should be able to produce one (in 4 slices). A full-colour scan is quite large, as it includes the variations in yellow fading!
I might even be able to manage 1200 dpi, scanner claims to support it, but my trial images were garbled.

Michael Katzmann

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Feb 4, 2021, 11:37:05 AM2/4/21
to Tom Wilson, [PiDP-11]
It's looking great!  The DEC logo looks a little off to me.
Here is a vector version that imports into inkscape...

Michael

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Tom Wilson

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Feb 4, 2021, 11:42:39 AM2/4/21
to Michael Katzmann, [PiDP-11]

Thanks, Michael. I traced it by hand, using Bezier curves... so it is definitely a little off. I was planning on cleaning that up later. But this is much better than my initial attempt. 


Tom Wilson

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Feb 4, 2021, 11:53:03 AM2/4/21
to Andrew Yeomans, [PiDP-11]
Does someone know the font used on the programming card, or have it in a modern format? It looks the same as used on other Digital handbooks.
Using that ought to minimise the size of any Inkscape file. Though in my experience, don't rely on SVG readers to lay out text identically, so you may need to use individual character positioning.

Yeah, my plan was to export it as a PDF, which should keep things consistent at that point. I may have to lay it up in another program, since Inkscape's export formats are somewhat limited. 

If anyone needs a 600 dpi scan of the card, I should be able to produce one (in 4 slices). A full-colour scan is quite large, as it includes the variations in yellow fading!
I might even be able to manage 1200 dpi, scanner claims to support it, but my trial images were garbled.

That can only help. I have had good luck in the past by converting to grayscale and adjusting curves to get hand drawn art into the computer for colorization. However, I figure having newly laid out vector artwork is also beneficial, so we can make little changes if needed.



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/04777c85-6125-4088-9cdd-6b3c24c67aa4n%40googlegroups.com.

Anton Lavrentiev

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Feb 4, 2021, 1:29:13 PM2/4/21
to Michael Katzmann, Tom Wilson, [PiDP-11]
My copy of the (supposedly original) card says "FOR FAMILY OF PDP-11 COMPUTERS" (under PROGRAMMING CARD)
Not that it matters, but only for the sake of "authenticity"

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAMyt5OTkarYwYr3n3KE44TbhndwLnOS2Tb4obzUeR%2BGooFGybg%40mail.gmail.com.

Andrew Yeomans

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Feb 4, 2021, 5:32:42 PM2/4/21
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Here are some scans of the programming card at 600 pixels/inch. I've not retouched them, just scanned with enough contrast to make the background mostly white.
The left and right hand scans overlap by one panel. Final size should be 428.7 mm x 179.0 mm i.e. 10126 x 4228 pixels.
I started adjusting with Gimp, but haven't yet got good enough results to extract the red and black layers.

I had a look at similar fonts, the closest I found for most of the text is Helvetica Condensed Light. Expert opinion welcomed!
The originals may well have preceded much computer typesetting, the Digital handbooks in similar typeface came out in the 1960s. It would not surprise me if they had been created on a Selectric golfball typewriter, though the reference card is within the era of daisy wheel printers. Certainly some of the character imprints look to have mechanically generated variations, if you zoom in. According to Wikipedia, Selectrics had Univers and News Gothic which are quite similar at the appropriate weight.

pdp11-fl.jpeg

Andrew Yeomans

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Feb 4, 2021, 5:33:50 PM2/4/21
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Front right image
pdp11-fr.jpeg

Andrew Yeomans

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Feb 4, 2021, 5:34:43 PM2/4/21
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Rear left image
pdp11-rl.jpeg

Andrew Yeomans

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Feb 4, 2021, 5:35:45 PM2/4/21
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Rear right image
pdp11-rr.jpeg

Tom Wilson

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Feb 4, 2021, 5:40:12 PM2/4/21
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Thanks, Anton. 

That was a choice, on my part, to fix what looked like a non-English speaker's poor syntax. If that bugs everyone, I'll change it, of course. =)

This won't be a perfect reproduction - that's kind of impossible, since we don't have DEC's font. In fact, I have looked at various commercial and free font libraries, and nothing precisely matches the font on this page.



While "gothic" fonts tend to be closest, they don't match. Aside from the character spacing, which vary widely on the various Gothic fonts, there are some unique elements on this font. 

The C is more oval shaped than any of the fonts I've found. The descender on the capital J stops at the bottom of the arc, the g has a closed loop on the descender, the A has the top story, and other elements like the . The grave accent (140) is  huge, and the quote ( " ) and apostrophe ( ' ) have a right hand slant. 

Trying to reproduce all of those elements in any currently available font is proving to be difficult; none of the font libraries I've tried so far have anything that has all of those elements in those configurations. 

So I figure we'll include a few other differences as Easter eggs and/or Copyright traps (if someone copies this card, we'll know it's not the real thing and call them out on it.)

On the note of fonts....  I'm looking for the best font to use, and I'm still looking for an open source font that fits. "Yu Gothic Medium" seems to be the closest on my Windows machines: it does the C, g, and J correctly, and it fits the spacing of the original text. However, Windows fonts are Copyright encumbered, and I can't distribute the font to Linux or MacOS users. 

So the hunt continues. 

Honestly, I'm at the point where I'd build a font - if I had the right software. 

Chris Smith

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Feb 5, 2021, 1:05:38 AM2/5/21
to Tom Wilson, [PiDP-11]
I did some searching, and I get a good feeling with "Alternate Gothic No 3". As a Linotype font, it would have been around at the time this card was printed.

Here's a link to a 'similar to' page for "Alternate Gothic No 3". I have included sample letters that hit a number of the touchy points you covered.

See what you think...




To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/3b9bf465-9ccb-42f2-98b3-9135d7f9e51en%40googlegroups.com.


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Lawrence Stewart (Larry)

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Feb 5, 2021, 1:21:13 PM2/5/21
to Tom Wilson, Lawrence Stewart (Larry), [PiDP-11]
My neighbor and I have various packrat tendencies, so here is the Digital logo in EPS format. It is after the color change, but that should be easy to fix. The metadata says Erik Goetze 8/2/1990


digital-red-logo.eps
digital-red-logo.pdf

Johnny Billquist

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Feb 5, 2021, 1:37:28 PM2/5/21
to Lawrence Stewart (Larry), Tom Wilson, [PiDP-11]
Cool. Unfortunately, they did change more than just the color when they
changed the logo.

For example, in the old blue logo, the dots above the i's were square,
but in the purple, they are circular.
The t got a slanted top in the purple version, the d, g and a became
"slimmer". The bottom hook of the t also changed.
Small details, but lots of them...

Johnny


On 2021-02-05 19:21, Lawrence Stewart (Larry) wrote:
> My neighbor and I have various packrat tendencies, so here is the Digital logo in EPS format. It is after the color change, but that should be easy to fix. The metadata says Erik Goetze 8/2/1990
>
>
>
>
>

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Michael Katzmann

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Feb 5, 2021, 2:10:09 PM2/5/21
to Johnny Billquist, Lawrence Stewart (Larry), Tom Wilson, [PiDP-11]
The logo I posted looks correct. It came from here...


Some background here is interesting...


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wjegr...@gmail.com

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Feb 5, 2021, 2:44:12 PM2/5/21
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I've mostly been ignoring this topic since I have a real one, so sorry if I'm being repetitious. I don't see any pics of the original first-page top that shows the logo. Here's the one from my card (July 75). The color from the mockup shot above doesn't look quite right, but of course color reproduction on monitors is always problematic. IMG_0699.JPG



Chris Smith

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Feb 6, 2021, 10:07:46 AM2/6/21
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A-ha ....
Much more detail, square i dots, EPS, and links to work and commentary from DEC and HP employees.


The following one is likely especially good, as he did his work from original 10 inch photo masters of the individual letters.



On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 2:44 PM wjegr...@gmail.com <wjegr...@gmail.com> wrote:
I've mostly been ignoring this topic since I have a real one, so sorry if I'm being repetitious. I don't see any pics of the original first-page top that shows the logo. Here's the one from my card (July 75). The color from the mockup shot above doesn't look quite right, but of course color reproduction on monitors is always problematic. IMG_0699.JPG



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anton.la...@gmail.com

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Oct 15, 2021, 9:44:14 AM10/15/21
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Happy Friday everybody!

FYI: Just got a digest from eBay this morning: there is a bunch of original PDP-11 programming cards for sale today, $30 a pop;
for those who wanted to get one not "benefiting a charity" that sells for $499 on there :-)

Cheers,
Anton

D Gillies

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Oct 17, 2021, 2:09:20 AM10/17/21
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I did a high-quality scan and clean-up of the instructions for our 1960 LEGO(Samsonite) 717 Junior Constructor Set.  My parents got it used in the mid-60's and I still own it.  The cleanup was not hard but probably took 8 hours to complete.  The condition was much worse than every card I've seen on EBay and there was far more yellowing. 

- Don Gillies
Palo Alto, CA

194228_1923081361344_4931695_o.jpegThen we just need to find a good print shop.  Here is an example of what can be done.



Heinz-Bernd Eggenstein

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Oct 17, 2021, 8:13:00 AM10/17/21
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Just curious, what does the original "feel" like, I mean the surface texture? I guess it has a kind of glossy finish or is even laminated with a thin plastic foil to make it at least a bit coffee-spill-proof ??

I would love to have a reproduction of it but I think the "feel" is as important as the looks.

Cheers
HB

Dave Johnson

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Oct 17, 2021, 8:16:54 AM10/17/21
to Heinz-Bernd Eggenstein, [PiDP-11]
The original is on shiny card stock. I don’t think the top layer is laminated over the printing, just printed on waterproof layer. 

  -- ddj
Dave Johnson

On Oct 17, 2021, at 8:13 AM, 'Heinz-Bernd Eggenstein' via [PiDP-11] <pid...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



David Bakin

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Oct 17, 2021, 12:09:19 PM10/17/21
to Dave Johnson, Heinz-Bernd Eggenstein, [PiDP-11]
This is my collection of reference cards.  Exactly one is one I did not purchase at the time I was actively programming that computer architecture, in fact, it is of a computer architecture I never used. Can you identify it?  To confirm Dave Johnson: The PDP-11 card is glossy card stock.  I also find it amusing that though the PDP-10 and PDP-11 cards are definitely cards the VAX "card" is a booklet.  CISC for the win!

ref-cards.sm.jpg

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/794DFA0D-5AA2-49FA-9F39-69DD7B0FC068%40brown.edu.

Dave Johnson

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Oct 17, 2021, 12:16:18 PM10/17/21
to David Bakin, Heinz-Bernd Eggenstein, [PiDP-11]
Judging by lack of wear and tear, I’d go with the intel card.  

  -- ddj
Dave Johnson

On Oct 17, 2021, at 12:09 PM, David Bakin <da...@bakins-bits.com> wrote:


This is my collection of reference cards.  Exactly one is one I did not purchase at the time I was actively programming that computer architecture, in fact, it is of a computer architecture I never used. Can you identify it?  To confirm Dave Johnson: The PDP-11 card is glossy card stock.  I also find it amusing that though the PDP-10 and PDP-11 cards are definitely cards the VAX "card" is a booklet.  CISC for the win!

<ref-cards.sm.jpg>

David Bakin

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Oct 17, 2021, 12:23:19 PM10/17/21
to Dave Johnson, Heinz-Bernd Eggenstein, [PiDP-11]
Nope, that one is original - and by the way, the picture on it is accurate as to size: You would have had to have been an ultra-geek engineer back then to walk around with that thing sticking up out of your white plastic pocket protector! Plus it was an 85+ page booklet too, would have weighed down your shirt on that side ...

Nuts, I realize now I forgot to add my MC68000/68008/68010/68012 booklet, also my NS32000 booklet.  They were on a different shelf. Oh well.

By the way, I said "purchase at the time" above but of course that's not quite accurate: most of those were handed out for the asking, esp. DEC, IBM, and the microprocessor companies.  I think I actually had to pay for the Multics cards (they were rare) but as I was working for Honeywell at the time I got them for a couple of bucks each.

Mike Katz

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Oct 17, 2021, 3:27:37 PM10/17/21
to Tom Wilson, Chris Berry, Google, [PiDP-11]
I have an original.  What measurements do you need?

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021, 5:51 AM Tom Wilson <wils...@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok. I’m willing to lay out a new card, if everyone is that interested. If someone who has one of those cards can get measurements, maybe someone else can investigate what it takes to print them. If it’s just legal size carsdstock, that should be something we can just have done at Kinko’s or Office Depot. 

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 12:54 AM Chris Berry <christ...@gmail.com> wrote:
Me too !! Definately :-) 


On 27 Jan 2021, at 23:04, Google <gmarin...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would buy one.
GJM

On Jan 27, 2021, at 9:57 AM, chu...@gmail.com <chu...@gmail.com> wrote:

(I thought I'd start a new topic about John's question:)

"I got a nice clean card on eBay, and was thinking of getting it professionally reproduced. Would anyone else be willing to pay for it? Would I get sued? :-)"

Yes, I'd be willing to pay for a quality reproduction of your card. Given that people are trying to sell the card for $150 and $500 on ebay, I suspect there are a few others out there who aren't in our group who'd be interested in copies also.

-Chuck

 


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Rob Pike

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Oct 17, 2021, 3:38:20 PM10/17/21
to Mike Katz, Tom Wilson, Chris Berry, Google, [PiDP-11]
I have two PDP-11 cards. One is very slightly glossy, dated July 1975,
the other isn't glossy at all, dated October 1974. The stock varied
with print run, apparently.

-rob
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAJ5isrZS%2BMByk0fp%3Dm1N6RoZU%2BZ0K0-wBJZWNYSmMAu%3DHmKaCg%40mail.gmail.com.

bill....@gmail.com

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Oct 18, 2021, 11:16:28 AM10/18/21
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I'm gonna guess the Ratheon Nebula.  I was originally gonna guess the Multics card but you have a Honewell Series 60 hardware card, which probably went with Multics.

It might however, be the Mostek card, since all the others are old iron...

Fun question!

David Bakin

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Oct 18, 2021, 11:43:05 AM10/18/21
to bill....@gmail.com, [PiDP-11]
Yes! It was the MIL-STD-1862 "Nebula" that I never saw!  The "Nebula" was born from a DOD competition for a new computer architecture (ISA) that would satisfy the needs of the services into the future.  They were tired of all the custom architectures around - each of the Army, Navy, and Air Force had several already, each requiring different OSes and compilers and tools and training and so on.  Just like they were standardizing on Ada for software, they wanted a standard hardware.  "Nebula" won the competition - IIRC the design team was from CMU - with the following philosophy:

So, they say they like the VAX - multiple instruction formats (with different lengths), multiple primitive operand types, multiple lengths for each such operand type, multiple addressing modes?  Well, hold my beer! 

(Yes, even though the phrase "hold my beer" didn't get its "modern" connotation until decades later!)

Anyway, it was built - but I don't know if it was ever built into a military system much less deployed.  Because, belatedly and reluctantly, the DOD figured out there was already at that time this thing going on full speed ahead in the commercial world which we call today the "microprocessor revolution" and that they'd never need to design an ISA again!  They could still standardize systems - which they certainly did - and they could pick ISAs, but it was pointless and self-defeating to design one.

I bought the card much later for nostalgia purposes: I was working on Ada compilers at the time of the Nebula competition and was interested, at that time, in Nebula, because it was supposed to be ideal for Ada.  (I was also very interested in the Intel 432 architecture, which for some stupid reason I no longer remember I disposed of those manuals years ago, damnit.  But I don't think there was a reference card for it at all: Reference cards were for programming in assembly language and the iAPX 432 was Ada from the ground up, nobody but a compiler writer would ever see the variable bit-length instructions of that baroque beast!)

(Hmm.  Sense a trend? Multics, PDP-11, DEC VAX, Nebula, iAPX, 8086/286/386/486/x86 and my work today nearly exclusively with x64: I don't care a fig for the trends in computer architecture: CISC rules!)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/7edb411f-4fcd-496f-a7f7-730dedeae8afn%40googlegroups.com.

David Bakin

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Oct 18, 2021, 11:44:51 AM10/18/21
to bill....@gmail.com, [PiDP-11]
(Oh, BTW, the "Series 60" more commonly called the "Level 6" was a Honeywell 16 bit minicomputer - had nothing to do with Multics which only ran on big iron. Specific GE-first and then Honeywell-later big iron.)

bill....@gmail.com

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Oct 19, 2021, 6:19:29 PM10/19/21
to [PiDP-11]
When I was in high school, I had the whole DEC PDP-8 hardware catalog memorized.
In college I did the same with the PDP-11 hardware catalog.
I used Multics, but yea, I think it was on a DPS-8.

BTW: Did you know there are dyed in the wool Multicians doing development in a SIMH Honeywell hardware simulation environment? https://multicians.org/simulator.html

David Bakin

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Oct 19, 2021, 6:40:33 PM10/19/21
to bill....@gmail.com, [PiDP-11]
I did know about the multicians running multics on emulators - don't think it's SIMH though, something independent.  They even came out with a Y2K patch for Multics awhile ago!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/2b47fb2d-ed54-4dcd-8b71-97a6be403697n%40googlegroups.com.
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