8-bit paper tape punch?

[lars silen]

I have been looking for a DIY paper tape punch. There are many paper tape readers available and they are easy to build. I haven't found any DIY working punch.

My plan is to make my own punch based on a MEGA2560 micro controller that controls 9 RC-servos used to punch the paper. A stepper motor drives a rubber belt used to move the tape. For the cutting "needles" I would use stainless steel pipe in the correct dimensions for data holes and the movement track cut to short lengths at an angle and sharpened.

Serial data would be sent to the MEGA2560 controller that converts each character to on/off positions for the stepper motors. The operating sequence would the be roughly:

1. wait for and read a character

2. move servos to punch the paper tape

3. move all servos to off position

4. use the stepper motor to move the tape one step forward 

5. Go back to step one

My question is:

Did the old time punches work as described above or was some more fancy protocol used?

The body of the punch would be 3-d printed (the first version is being printed as I write the text). 9-servos are arranged into a tower with the servos staggered 3 mm from servo to servo to make space for the rods going to the cutting heads.

I am well aware that the punch will be extremely slow ... but who cares. A future reader can be much faster. Of course a paper tape punch is absolutely useless but this is computer archeology so again ... who cares when it is fun.

The servos will be small Chinese 9g servos. Ten servos will cost 10-15 euros. 

Good ideas are welcome :) .

[Flavio Villanustre]

Does it need to be that faithful? If you replace the moving pins by LEDs and photodiodes, you can have something that can be built with less complication and cheaply. There is this project using an arduino here: https://www.e-basteln.de/computing/papertape/building/#start and they claim 1M/second, but with optical readers instead. Besides, optical readers were used back then too, IIRC. If you don't like the hand pull, you can use a little motor, as you described.

Yes, I know, it's all about reproducing the feeling :)

Best,

Flavio Villanustre

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com.

[Hans]

He is talking about a puncher, not a reader. There are already dozens of designs for optical readers in the web.

A puncher is much harder because it need to be mechanical if you want it to work like in the old days.

That's probably why working punchers go for a premium. Also, the tape is getting harder to come by.

I have been thinking about an alternative project with a combination of 2 methods:

- Some type of simple optical reader that can read old tapes but also "tape" with black holes printed on it with a standard (laser)printer.

- An application (MS-word script?) that can print "tape" on A4 or rather A3 standard paper that can be cut out and glued into "paper tapes".

Now to find the time to create this... :)

grtz, Hans

Op vr 8 nov 2024 om 13:38 schreef Flavio Villanustre <fvilla...@gmail.com>:

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[lars silen]

To get the paper tape I plan to start from cash register tape. I would use a template to enable me to use my band saw to cut paper tape to the correct width.

/Lasse

[lars silen]

To make the cutting needles I will try stainless steel:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/186615346927?_skw=Stainless+steel+pipe+1.2+mm&var=694646891166&itmmeta=01JC5Y2K5VW0SYHG11H2N1HJ3E&hash=item2b732436ef:g:kIYAAOSw8tZhSs6g&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkNMTs2fwTXzy7W15vZj3Pw%2BM4B4zZ%2F1pn2ybgwpJMI9PjYausgYdnwciJ6xZwBA6CK38Rv4swFy%2BlDLDD99wzi41Ns0lTxVDahjMuuRaGGwSt0wwM2klfy%2BnRArpf8QcaUlfRALIW3%2BxY0BgiLcgOOlxVjf9hpEV%2FdGUUsKcsn6P%2B4BVaT%2BVA%2BMOql%2BgznG%2BcmF3crBu0UHdZea%2BpXBcVphCnlo3Y9BxXE9w7r0toAMGwQ4afVbK4%2BvclbDAU1z8tLZSFjk0rRpA2pD6Bdv6cgulb4EU6%2FL7ERo0WVtC%2BQ7Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMgLOKvuFk

The rods going from the servo to the cutting "needle" will be steel rod 0.5 - 0.8 mm. I have to check what size is stiff enough not to bend during cutting. The rod will be epoxy glued to the needle. The needle will move in a 3-d printed

template ensuring correct distance between bit-holes.

/Lasse

[Tim Boan]

I would suggest using a harder tougher alloy steel that is heat treatable rather than stainless steel.

Stainless will wear very quickly.

Tim Boan

Virus-free.www.avast.com

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/80ff3b62-0b71-4163-b072-0202ba53954en%40googlegroups.com.

[jj.so...@gmail.com]

Maybe look at body piercing needles.  Available in a range of gauges but 12g for the holes and 16g for the sprockets looks about right.  Only problem might be the distance of travel as they’re normally quite tapered.

 

JJ

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/80ff3b62-0b71-4163-b072-0202ba53954en%40googlegroups.com.

[Matthew Hume]

Something like A2 tool steel hardened to 55HRC. The geometry of the cutting tool in the punch is also important. The cylindrical bores that the cutters ride in should machined and bored in a single block to maintain positional accuracy (prevent binding), these should be approx 0.002 larger than the pins. provisions for paper dust and lubrication need to be taken into account.

The hard part is that the tape needs to be stopped during the punching, and then move with relative precision to the next hole.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/015201db31e2%24883360c0%24989a2240%24%40gmail.com.

[Benny G Mooneyhan]

my 2 cents here, not really in the conversation,but.... the guy that used to live next door was a tool-n-die maker, he could have made the die for something like this in an hour and it would be perfect. maybe search someone like that out.

Benny

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAM9_YbQPvJvRB9xVxPsrKD-pJXhRdNJEKg%2BhcxgZqvR8eNTVsw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Johnny Billquist]

It's about punching, not reading.

The readers, even back then, used optical reading with a lamp and photo
diodes.

Mechanical reading of paper tape, while possible, would be way slower.

As for punching. The holes are fairly large. You want proper, guided,
steel rods (I guess) going down into a metal block, and you want it to
be fast. The PC04/PC05 punch at 50 cps. And the paper obviously need to
stop and start for each character.

Fairly tight mechanical tolerances... And then of course, you need to
lead the chaff away somewhere...

Johnny

> <mailto:pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com>.

> To view this discussion visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com>.

> To view this discussion visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

[Malcolm Ray]

The punch mechanism on the old-timey punches generally worked something like the following:

There's a constantly rotating eccentric (cam) shaft. There are also nine "interposers", one per punch needle, narrow tongues each attached to a solenoid which can move it back and forward.

At punching time, the appropriate selection of solenoids is energised, moving the corresponding interposers into place. The rotating cam pushes these interposers down, causing them to push down on the corresponding needles. The needles have springs, so when the interposer moves up again, the needle is pushed back to its idle position by the spring.

Regardless of the mechanism you choose, I think this will be a challenging project. The tight tolerances, the profile and durability of the needles, even the business of getting the chads out of the way and into the bit bucket... those old punches were minor miracles of engineering.

It might be easier if you're not bound to the dimensions of real paper tape. As long as you've resigned yourself to the need to build a compatible reader, the punch could be any size. If you use cash register tape without cutting it down, the punch mechanism would probably be easier. And you could use the lessons learned to scale it down in version 2.

Good luck!

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com.

[Anton Lavrentiev]

Maybe you can just print the black circles on the tape, instead of actually punching the paper? ;-)

You'd need a special reader, obviously.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/976ca41ec9ded5cdfa95659da6dcdc02fdf89fcc.camel%40apathetic.org.uk.

[sunnybo...@gmail.com]

I'm pretty sure the punches I saw long, long ago (part of the ADSR33 teletype) had the paper tape feed between two fairly thick (1.mm?) pieces of steel with the pin holes in both sides. The punches were just thin steel rods which were part of the solenoids that did the punching. They were the size of the holes to be punched, and square cut on the ends. Basically if you drive a punch through the two plates with the paper sandwiched between, you get a clean hole every time. I remember having to clean out a little tray full of the punch bits that would collect. Lots of fun nuisance ideas for the "teeny tiny" confetti the punch produced. :-) 

[Tom Lake]

The ASR-33 didn't use optical reading. It had pins that would pop up when holes passed over them.

[p q (p quinn)]

Use a laser to cut the holes. No mechanical parts!

[Johnny Billquist]

Right. I had forgot about that one. But not pins, as far as I can
remember, but sortof levers that were sliding along the paper and moving
up a bit when there was a hole.

Johnny

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com
> > <mailto:pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com>.
> > To view this discussion visit
> >

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
> --
> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
> || on a psychedelic trip
> email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/bf3ffc54-8741-46fc-bc35-76a1bcb1a22fn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/bf3ffc54-8741-46fc-bc35-76a1bcb1a22fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Johnny Billquist]

I guess doable, but very questionable. Speed would be very unimpressive,
and you do run the risk of the paper catching fire.

Next you are going to suggest mounting them on sea bass, I guess. :P

Johnny

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it, send
> > an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com
> > <mailto:pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com>.
> > To view this discussion visit
> >

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
> --
> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
> || on a psychedelic trip
> email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/09d95c0e-000c-4149-b36f-d3791eba0809n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/09d95c0e-000c-4149-b36f-d3791eba0809n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[lars silen]

A laser cutter is absolutely an option. The main problem is that if I use one laser I have to move it side ways over the

tape or move the beam with a mirror or similar. This would be nice and possibly slightly faster but think of the smell of smoke or

burned plastic ;) .

A simpler and even faster version would use nine fixed lasers but it gets fairly expensive and also complicated to

focus if the laser head isn't very close to the tape being punched. Doable ... absolutely.

/Lasse

[lars silen]

Förklara varför papperet skulle börja brinna?

Testar om vad adressen .se kombinerat med Johnny betyder :) .

/Lasse

[lars silen]

Looking into building a tool to create my own cutting needle from ordinary steel. I probably could start from a steel nail and form a cutter using a Dremel

type tool fixed in a 3d printed holder for the nail and the Dremel to secure alignment. Today's small diamond tools should allow me form a proper cutting edge

on the nail. Hardening the cutting area afterwards is no problem. 

This is probable the easiest solution.

/Lasse

[Tim Boan]

The steel in a nail will be of lower quality than stainless. You need to find a

local guy (probably a hobbyist) with a lathe to machine you some punches.

Tim Boan

Virus-free.www.avast.com

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/56a2b83f-8751-4d00-863a-df12e7e6efcbn%40googlegroups.com.

[Adrian Nicol]

Depends what you mean by 'ordinary' steel I guess?

Low carbon steel can be carbon treated and then hardened (Case-Hardening) after machining but for something as simple as a punch pin surely you would start with a length of precision ground high carbon steel (AKA Silver Steel in the UK)  and then just harden and temper in the usual way? For instance 300mm of oil quenched 2mm dia stock can even be found on eBay for about 3 pounds.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/56a2b83f-8751-4d00-863a-df12e7e6efcbn%40googlegroups.com.

[lars silen]

The first step is to make any kind of working pin able to cut holes reliably. . How fast it wears out doesn't really matter. 

Needed as a proof of concept.  Later the pins/needles can be optimized. I have a good friend with a quality lathe and metal router so making good

quality parts is possible but 10-15 km away.

As a physicist I am very fond on starting with some simple design and improve parts when actual use indicates that it is necessary. 

There are different nail types available, both soft iron and real steel. For initial testing softer iron is easier to work. The tip is so small that I will

use a microscope and of course a tool holding both the small diamond tipped cutter and the nail being worked on.

I got the first Arduino software running where I can send text over the serial line to the micro controller. 

Bytes received by the micro controller are interpreted bit by bit and the two micro servos I happened to have

seem to work. I ordered a set of 10 servos for testing. In a future version the punch will accept both text and hex code.

It is perfectly possible that the servos I start with are too weak ... time will tell. Upgrading servos simple means a few hours of modified 3-d printed

parts.

The specifications for the present servos say 1.5 - 2 kp/cm (15-20 N/cm).  The movement needed is fairly small which means that the moment arm

can be kept short --> maximum force available.  Intuitively I think a sharpened cutter needle should be able to cut thin paper.

The next step will be to design a working friction drive to advance the paper. I will use a NEMA-17 type stepper motor driving a normal toothed belt.

The selection of the motor is simply that I have a few spare ones similar to the ones in the 3-d printer.

I think the rubber belt wrapped over the tape routed over a wheel should work without significant slipping. Think a rubber belt running over three 

wheels in a triangle. The longest side of the triangle presses against the tape over a freely running wheel. Using a stepper motor I can control

the movement very accurately. Because the stepper motor is controlled by the same micro controller as the servos there is no risk that the tape

is moving while cutting. All punching steps are handled separately.

[p q]

Have you taken a look at how a teletype does it? The control mechanism won't be useful to you, but the actual tape punching might.

http://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/UI-8/bugs.shtml#TTY33 Page 64

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/pidp-11/7CZLWKJx_R0/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9c70d83c-07c4-4825-bbd4-7e929649db70n%40googlegroups.com.

--

Peter Quinn
(415)794-2264

[Steve Platt]

I'm curious -- can you talk more about the paper you intend to use?  What is the long-term resilience of cash register tape?

I remember ASR-33 tapes as having folds. And taped splices, alas.  Not sure how it compared to cash register tape.

Are you considering a spooling mechanism to reel in the tape as it is punched (and later, to spool out and in as it is read)?  Might support a longer lifespan than simple folded tape.

[Ken Hansen]

When I used a Teletype ASR-33 with paper tape reader/punch, the 'stock' came in rolls, made of higher quality paper than the stuff we ran through the printer.

I've seen fan-fold paper tape, but that was typically on DEC punches/readers (that was my experience, I'm certain other brands used similar paper tape stock).

I think cash register receipt paper would be too low-quality to be used in a paper tape reader.

Can original paper tape rolls still be found? I'm sure there are still some industries that use paper tape for *something*.

Ken

[Malcolm Ray]

Paper tape rolls can indeed be found, though no doubt stocks are
dwindling, and they're not cheap. The supplier I know sells to the CNC
world: presumably there are still a few machine shops using old tape-
driven CNC machines. The fan-fold paper tape seems to be very rare,
though: I have only one box, and I haven't seen any more show up on
ebay.

Some people apparently use "flight strips", which are used in air
traffic control. I've never investigated this myself.

[Adam Thornton]

On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 5:53 PM 'Steve Platt' via [PiDP-11] <pid...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I'm curious -- can you talk more about the paper you intend to use?  What is the long-term resilience of cash register tape?

I remember ASR-33 tapes as having folds. And taped splices, alas.  Not sure how it compared to cash register tape.

I have a heretical suggestion.

Paper tape is probably really expensive, but there was also mylar tape, for durability.  8-bit punch tape is 1" wide....

https://www.amazon.com/EONBES-Ribbon-Holographic-Reflective-Outdoor/dp/B0C1YN8Z6B

Adam

[Steven A. Falco]

I had a thought on the pins - why not use drill bits? If you cut off the fluted part with a dremel cutoff wheel, you'll have a high-strength steel pin of exactly the right diameter, and if you are using a steel die, you'd need the drill bits anyway, to make the holes.

As to the dies, I'd clamp two pieces of steel, then drill through both at once, so the holes line up perfectly. They can later be spaced apart by some shims, slightly thicker than the paper. Those shims can also be the guides to keep the paper centered as it passes through the dies.

One last thought - I'd probably try to fashion a slitting tool to narrow the paper to the proper width. Using a saw would leave a rough edge, but a slitter using some razor blades should make a clean cut. The fixture for the blades could be 3d printed.

This sounds like an interesting project. Good luck with it!

Steve

On 11/9/24 04:44 PM, lars silen wrote:
> The first step is to make any kind of working pin able to cut holes reliably. . How fast it wears out doesn't really matter.
> Needed as a proof of concept.  Later the pins/needles can be optimized. I have a good friend with a quality lathe and metal router so making good
> quality parts is possible but 10-15 km away.
>
> As a physicist I am very fond on starting with some simple design and improve parts when actual use indicates that it is necessary.
> There are different nail types available, both soft iron and real steel. For initial testing softer iron is easier to work. The tip is so small that I will
> use a microscope and of course a tool holding both the small diamond tipped cutter and the nail being worked on.
>
> I got the first Arduino software running where I can send text over the serial line to the micro controller.
> Bytes received by the micro controller are interpreted bit by bit and the two micro servos I happened to have
> seem to work. I ordered a set of 10 servos for testing. In a future version the punch will accept both text and hex code.
> It is perfectly possible that the servos I start with are too weak ... time will tell. Upgrading servos simple means a few hours of modified 3-d printed
> parts.
> The specifications for the present servos say 1.5 - 2 kp/cm (15-20 N/cm).  The movement needed is fairly small which means that the moment arm
> can be kept short --> maximum force available.  Intuitively I think a sharpened cutter needle should be able to cut thin paper.
>
> The next step will be to design a working friction drive to advance the paper. I will use a NEMA-17 type stepper motor driving a normal toothed belt.
> The selection of the motor is simply that I have a few spare ones similar to the ones in the 3-d printer.
> I think the rubber belt wrapped over the tape routed over a wheel should work without significant slipping. Think a rubber belt running over three
> wheels in a triangle. The longest side of the triangle presses against the tape over a freely running wheel. Using a stepper motor I can control
> the movement very accurately. Because the stepper motor is controlled by the same micro controller as the servos there is no risk that the tape
> is moving while cutting. All punching steps are handled separately.
> On Saturday, November 9, 2024 at 4:34:18 PM UTC+2 tcb...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> The steel in a nail will be of lower quality than stainless. You need to find a
> local guy (probably a hobbyist) with a lathe to machine you some punches.
>
> Tim Boan
>
>

> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free.www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>
> <#m_-1681257928413794629_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

>
> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 9:27 AM lars silen <larse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Looking into building a tool to create my own cutting needle from ordinary steel. I probably could start from a steel nail and form a cutter using a Dremel
> type tool fixed in a 3d printed holder for the nail and the Dremel to secure alignment. Today's small diamond tools should allow me form a proper cutting edge
> on the nail. Hardening the cutting area afterwards is no problem.
> This is probable the easiest solution.
> /Lasse
> On Friday, November 8, 2024 at 3:29:38 PM UTC+2 tcb...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I would suggest using a harder tougher alloy steel that is heat treatable rather than stainless steel.
> Stainless will wear very quickly.
>
> Tim Boan
>
>

> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free.www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>
> <#m_-1681257928413794629_m_-1508789085157215294_m_3293067561790523646_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

>
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 8:14 AM lars silen <larse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> To make the cutting needles I will try stainless steel:
>

> https://www.ebay.com/itm/186615346927?_skw=Stainless+steel+pipe+1.2+mm&var=694646891166&itmmeta=01JC5Y2K5VW0SYHG11H2N1HJ3E&hash=item2b732436ef:g:kIYAAOSw8tZhSs6g&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkNMTs2fwTXzy7W15vZj3Pw%2BM4B4zZ%2F1pn2ybgwpJMI9PjYausgYdnwciJ6xZwBA6CK38Rv4swFy%2BlDLDD99wzi41Ns0lTxVDahjMuuRaGGwSt0wwM2klfy%2BnRArpf8QcaUlfRALIW3%2BxY0BgiLcgOOlxVjf9hpEV%2FdGUUsKcsn6P%2B4BVaT%2BVA%2BMOql%2BgznG%2BcmF3crBu0UHdZea%2BpXBcVphCnlo3Y9BxXE9w7r0toAMGwQ4afVbK4%2BvclbDAU1z8tLZSFjk0rRpA2pD6Bdv6cgulb4EU6%2FL7ERo0WVtC%2BQ7Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMgLOKvuFk <https://www.ebay.com/itm/186615346927?

> _skw=Stainless+steel+pipe+1.2+mm&var=694646891166&itmmeta=01JC5Y2K5VW0SYHG11H2N1HJ3E&hash=item2b732436ef:g:kIYAAOSw8tZhSs6g&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkNMTs2fwTXzy7W15vZj3Pw%2BM4B4zZ%2F1pn2ybgwpJMI9PjYausgYdnwciJ6xZwBA6CK38Rv4swFy%2BlDLDD99wzi41Ns0lTxVDahjMuuRaGGwSt0wwM2klfy%2BnRArpf8QcaUlfRALIW3%2BxY0BgiLcgOOlxVjf9hpEV%2FdGUUsKcsn6P%2B4BVaT%2BVA%2BMOql%2BgznG%2BcmF3crBu0UHdZea%2BpXBcVphCnlo3Y9BxXE9w7r0toAMGwQ4afVbK4%2BvclbDAU1z8tLZSFjk0rRpA2pD6Bdv6cgulb4EU6%2FL7ERo0WVtC%2BQ7Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMgLOKvuFk>
>
> The rods going from the servo to the cutting "needle" will be steel rod 0.5 - 0.8 mm. I have to check what size is stiff enough not to bend during cutting. The rod will be epoxy glued to the needle. The needle will move in a 3-d printed
> template ensuring correct distance between bit-holes.
> /Lasse
> On Friday, November 8, 2024 at 3:04:48 PM UTC+2 lars silen wrote:
>
> To get the paper tape I plan to start from cash register tape. I would use a template to enable me to use my band saw to cut paper tape to the correct width.
> /Lasse
>
> On Friday, November 8, 2024 at 2:55:08 PM UTC+2 hans...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> He is talking about a puncher, not a reader. There are already dozens of designs for optical readers in the web.
> A puncher is much harder because it need to be mechanical if you want it to work like in the old days.
> That's probably why working punchers go for a premium. Also, the tape is getting harder to come by.
>
> I have been thinking about an alternative project with a combination of 2 methods:
> - Some type of simple optical reader that can read old tapes but also "tape" with black holes printed on it with a standard (laser)printer.
> - An application (MS-word script?) that can print "tape" on A4 or rather A3 standard paper that can be cut out and glued into "paper tapes".
>
> Now to find the time to create this... :)
> grtz, Hans
>
> Op vr 8 nov 2024 om 13:38 schreef Flavio Villanustre <fvilla...@gmail.com>:
>

> Does it need to be that faithful? If you replace the moving pins by LEDs and photodiodes, you can have something that can be built with less complication and cheaply. There is this project using an arduino here: https://www.e-basteln.de/computing/papertape/building/#start <https://www.e-basteln.de/computing/papertape/building/#start> and they claim 1M/second, but with optical readers instead. Besides, optical readers were used back then too, IIRC. If you don't like the hand pull, you can use a little motor, as you described.

>
> Yes, I know, it's all about reproducing the feeling :)
>
> Best,
>
> Flavio Villanustre
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 7:27 AM lars silen <larse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have been looking for a DIY paper tape punch. There are many paper tape readers available and they are easy to build. I haven't found any DIY working punch.
>
> My plan is to make my own punch based on a MEGA2560 micro controller that controls 9 RC-servos used to punch the paper. A stepper motor drives a rubber belt used to move the tape. For the cutting "needles" I would use stainless steel pipe in the correct dimensions for data holes and the movement track cut to short lengths at an angle and sharpened.
>
> Serial data would be sent to the MEGA2560 controller that converts each character to on/off positions for the stepper motors. The operating sequence would the be roughly:
>
> 1. wait for and read a character
> 2. move servos to punch the paper tape
> 3. move all servos to off position
> 4. use the stepper motor to move the tape one step forward
> 5. Go back to step one
>
> My question is:
> Did the old time punches work as described above or was some more fancy protocol used?
>
> The body of the punch would be 3-d printed (the first version is being printed as I write the text). 9-servos are arranged into a tower with the servos staggered 3 mm from servo to servo to make space for the rods going to the cutting heads.
>
> I am well aware that the punch will be extremely slow ... but who cares. A future reader can be much faster. Of course a paper tape punch is absolutely useless but this is computer archeology so again ... who cares when it is fun.
>
> The servos will be small Chinese 9g servos. Ten servos will cost 10-15 euros.
>
> Good ideas are welcome :) .
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
>

> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
>

> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/80ff3b62-0b71-4163-b072-0202ba53954en%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/80ff3b62-0b71-4163-b072-0202ba53954en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
>

> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/56a2b83f-8751-4d00-863a-df12e7e6efcbn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/56a2b83f-8751-4d00-863a-df12e7e6efcbn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com <mailto:pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9c70d83c-07c4-4825-bbd4-7e929649db70n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9c70d83c-07c4-4825-bbd4-7e929649db70n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Malcolm Ray]

For cutting roll paper to the required width, I wonder whether a Cricut
cutting machine could be used?

As for all the physical dimensions, look for a copy of the standard
ECMA-10 2nd edition, which covers everything. ecma-international.org
has a PDF available for free download.

[lars silen]

Thanks for the picture. The punch "head" is very close to what I planned. It is interesting to notice how the initial design always seem to be

too complicated.  The initial design can thus almost always be simplified sometimes in several steps (look at how Space X does it!).

I made a set of sharpened punches and realized that using a proper die-plate with sharp edges means that I don't need to 

do any really fancy sharpening of the punches because the paper is cut by the sharp edges of the punch AND the die. I had

planned to make a conical shallow hole at the tip of the punch using a miniature diamond cutter to ensure really sharp cutting

edges. This would have been overkill and doing it would have been slightly complicated, <2 mm diameter area to work, with the 

 tools I have available.

... so now I am at version two of the punch head. The next version will use a die plate made from brass (yes I know it won't last)

to check how well the combination will cut. The reason for using brass is simply because I happened to have 4x10 mm brass available.

Changing the cutting head to use two top plates above the paper to steer the cutter and one die-plate below the paper supporting the 

actual cutting. All three brass plates will be drilled "in situ" to ensure perfect alignment. I'll post an image when I have been able to 

test the cutting head.

/Lasse

[lars silen]

Good point to use material from drill bits. Perfect for the tool set I have available. I have to check where to order

drill bits of the sizes I need. Locally the shops sell sizes 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5 mm but I know that drill bits

of the exact sizes needed for holes and punches are available.

Drill bits obviously solve the material problem because the material is hardened and stays sharp.

Good idea! Thanks!

/Lasse

[lars silen]

Probably absolutely doable. An additional positive feature could be to get girls interested in punching tape if

really beautiful tape could be found :) .

/Lasse

[lars silen]

I recently saw some link lately to a company selling paper tape in some of the old CP/M or DOS program libraries on the net. Real paper tape seems to be fairly

expensive but paper tape is still available.

You may well be right in that cash register paper is too low quality. Worth trying though simply because cash register paper is easily available.

/Lasse

[lars silen]

The obvious thing to state about this thread is that if I am able to produce a working punch all data will be freely available like:

- Schematics for the electronics MEGA2560, connection of PSU:s, stepper driver A4988 etc.

- The Arduino program driving the punch as source code.

- The OpenScad source code to produce 3-d printed parts and also the corresponding .stl files. The source code is

important though is somebody wants to make improvements.

It has been a pleasure to see the interest in this thread and all the good suggestions given. My personal guess is

that if/when the punch works only a few meters of tape will ever be punched to produce demo material to show

children how computers worked in the ancient times :) .

/Lasse

[lars silen]

I checked the availability of small diameter drill bits of the sizes 1.2 mm, 1.3 mm, 1.8 mm and 1.9 mm. Easily available from China.

The 1.2 mm would be used as a driver hole punch, 1.8 mm as data hole punches and 1.3 and 1.9 mm would be used to drill the dies for

driver holes and data holes. I will obviously cut off the actual drill part of the bit and only use the stem for the punches.

The stem will then be sharpened to provide a fine edge. I think this is a simple and cheap alternative. A set of ten drills in this dimension

costs about $5 so total cost around $20  for probably reasonably good quality punches.

/Lasse

[Bradford Miller]

For much thicker cheap tape, look at drywall joint tape. You’d have to cut it down to size, but it definitely lasts a lot longer than cash register tape. Most rolls are slightly more than 2” wide, with a fold crease in the middle so you’d trim it into two pieces.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/7d2f888d-34a7-4999-a517-f2319c6d906fn%40googlegroups.com.

[lars silen]

My initial idea was to use solenoids to use interposers and an eccentric pusher to do the actual holes. The main problem is that

the solenoids are fairly power hungry and the construction mechanically gets more complicated as seen from what I have available.

Doable? Absolutely!

/Lasse

On Friday, November 8, 2024 at 4:51:38 PM UTC+2 Sheepless wrote:

The punch mechanism on the old-timey punches generally worked something like the following:

There's a constantly rotating eccentric (cam) shaft. There are also nine "interposers", one per punch needle, narrow tongues each attached to a solenoid which can move it back and forward.

At punching time, the appropriate selection of solenoids is energised, moving the corresponding interposers into place. The rotating cam pushes these interposers down, causing them to push down on the corresponding needles. The needles have springs, so when the interposer moves up again, the needle is pushed back to its idle position by the spring.

Regardless of the mechanism you choose, I think this will be a challenging project. The tight tolerances, the profile and durability of the needles, even the business of getting the chads out of the way and into the bit bucket... those old punches were minor miracles of engineering.

It might be easier if you're not bound to the dimensions of real paper tape. As long as you've resigned yourself to the need to build a compatible reader, the punch could be any size. If you use cash register tape without cutting it down, the punch mechanism would probably be easier. And you could use the lessons learned to scale it down in version 2.

Good luck!

On Fri, 2024-11-08 at 04:27 -0800, lars silen wrote:

I have been looking for a DIY paper tape punch. There are many paper tape readers available and they are easy to build. I haven't found any DIY working punch.

My plan is to make my own punch based on a MEGA2560 micro controller that controls 9 RC-servos used to punch the paper. A stepper motor drives a rubber belt used to move the tape. For the cutting "needles" I would use stainless steel pipe in the correct dimensions for data holes and the movement track cut to short lengths at an angle and sharpened.

Serial data would be sent to the MEGA2560 controller that converts each character to on/off positions for the stepper motors. The operating sequence would the be roughly:

1. wait for and read a character

2. move servos to punch the paper tape

3. move all servos to off position

4. use the stepper motor to move the tape one step forward 

5. Go back to step one

My question is:

Did the old time punches work as described above or was some more fancy protocol used?

The body of the punch would be 3-d printed (the first version is being printed as I write the text). 9-servos are arranged into a tower with the servos staggered 3 mm from servo to servo to make space for the rods going to the cutting heads.

I am well aware that the punch will be extremely slow ... but who cares. A future reader can be much faster. Of course a paper tape punch is absolutely useless but this is computer archeology so again ... who cares when it is fun.

The servos will be small Chinese 9g servos. Ten servos will cost 10-15 euros. 

Good ideas are welcome :) .

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com.

[lars silen]

This is also something I looked into. Clearly doable for very short paper tape strips. The problem is to modify a modern printer to print tape.

Perhaps an interesting alternative approach would be to use a narrow printer used to print receipts to print dots. This could be a thermal

printer allowing long tapes to be produced.  If an "authentic" tape is needed one could  cut the printed paper to size after printing. 

The reader would probably be slightly harder to design to get accurate results.

A thermal printer is not optimal because the printed tape will fade with time.

/Lasse

On Friday, November 8, 2024 at 4:56:10 PM UTC+2 Anton L. wrote:

Maybe you can just print the black circles on the tape, instead of actually punching the paper? ;-)

You'd need a special reader, obviously.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/976ca41ec9ded5cdfa95659da6dcdc02fdf89fcc.camel%40apathetic.org.uk.

[lars silen]

At least initially I will use what is easily available locally. In practice this means cash register thermal paper rolls. The good point is that the paper is

fairly thin and it should be easy to cut. Another good point is that thermal paper is easily available and very inexpensive.

The paper rolls I have seen locally are 80 mm wide and 80 m long. Making a cutting template to hold and support the roll I think I will get two or three 

one inch wide paper tapes from one roll of cash register paper. The roughness of the cut will determine if the middle roll can be used. 

I will cut the paper roll using a band saw.

One paper tape roll cut to size will theoretically store roughly 32 kB of data (80 000 mm / 2.5 mm/char = 32 000 char).

My guess is that the resilience of the actual paper should be as good as any thin paper. It is well known that text written to

thermal paper fades fairly quickly but this isn't a problem because we punch, we don't do any thermal writing. A bigger question 

is probably if the thin thermal paper mechanically will stand punching and handling without tearing. Time will show. If the paper is 

unsuitable some other paper type has to be found. This is like programming ... don't do unnecessary optimizations before you 

know that you need to optimize.

/Lasse 

[Steven A. Falco]

Glad you liked that suggestion.

The data bit holes are 1.8 mm and the sprocket holes are 1.2 mm. I looked on ebay and found a number of suppliers of suitable drill bits. The bits are sold in 10-packs. I ordered some, because I've been thinking about building a punch for a while now.

Steve

> > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>> Virus-free.www.avast.com <http://Virus-free.www.avast.com> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>>

> >
> > <#m_-1681257928413794629_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 9:27 AM lars silen <larse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Looking into building a tool to create my own cutting needle from ordinary steel. I probably could start from a steel nail and form a cutter using a Dremel
> > type tool fixed in a 3d printed holder for the nail and the Dremel to secure alignment. Today's small diamond tools should allow me form a proper cutting edge
> > on the nail. Hardening the cutting area afterwards is no problem.
> > This is probable the easiest solution.
> > /Lasse
> > On Friday, November 8, 2024 at 3:29:38 PM UTC+2 tcb...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I would suggest using a harder tougher alloy steel that is heat treatable rather than stainless steel.
> > Stainless will wear very quickly.
> >
> > Tim Boan
> >
> >

> > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>> Virus-free.www.avast.com <http://Virus-free.www.avast.com> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>>

> >
> > <#m_-1681257928413794629_m_-1508789085157215294_m_3293067561790523646_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 8:14 AM lars silen <larse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > To make the cutting needles I will try stainless steel:
> >
> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/186615346927?_skw=Stainless+steel+pipe+1.2+mm&var=694646891166&itmmeta=01JC5Y2K5VW0SYHG11H2N1HJ3E&hash=item2b732436ef:g:kIYAAOSw8tZhSs6g&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkNMTs2fwTXzy7W15vZj3Pw%2BM4B4zZ%2F1pn2ybgwpJMI9PjYausgYdnwciJ6xZwBA6CK38Rv4swFy%2BlDLDD99wzi41Ns0lTxVDahjMuuRaGGwSt0wwM2klfy%2BnRArpf8QcaUlfRALIW3%2BxY0BgiLcgOOlxVjf9hpEV%2FdGUUsKcsn6P%2B4BVaT%2BVA%2BMOql%2BgznG%2BcmF3crBu0UHdZea%2BpXBcVphCnlo3Y9BxXE9w7r0toAMGwQ4afVbK4%2BvclbDAU1z8tLZSFjk0rRpA2pD6Bdv6cgulb4EU6%2FL7ERo0WVtC%2BQ7Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMgLOKvuFk <https://www.ebay.com/itm/186615346927?

> _skw=Stainless+steel+pipe+1.2+mm&var=694646891166&itmmeta=01JC5Y2K5VW0SYHG11H2N1HJ3E&hash=item2b732436ef:g:kIYAAOSw8tZhSs6g&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkNMTs2fwTXzy7W15vZj3Pw%2BM4B4zZ%2F1pn2ybgwpJMI9PjYausgYdnwciJ6xZwBA6CK38Rv4swFy%2BlDLDD99wzi41Ns0lTxVDahjMuuRaGGwSt0wwM2klfy%2BnRArpf8QcaUlfRALIW3%2BxY0BgiLcgOOlxVjf9hpEV%2FdGUUsKcsn6P%2B4BVaT%2BVA%2BMOql%2BgznG%2BcmF3crBu0UHdZea%2BpXBcVphCnlo3Y9BxXE9w7r0toAMGwQ4afVbK4%2BvclbDAU1z8tLZSFjk0rRpA2pD6Bdv6cgulb4EU6%2FL7ERo0WVtC%2BQ7Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMgLOKvuFk> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/186615346927 <https://www.ebay.com/itm/186615346927>?

> > _skw=Stainless+steel+pipe+1.2+mm&var=694646891166&itmmeta=01JC5Y2K5VW0SYHG11H2N1HJ3E&hash=item2b732436ef:g:kIYAAOSw8tZhSs6g&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkNMTs2fwTXzy7W15vZj3Pw%2BM4B4zZ%2F1pn2ybgwpJMI9PjYausgYdnwciJ6xZwBA6CK38Rv4swFy%2BlDLDD99wzi41Ns0lTxVDahjMuuRaGGwSt0wwM2klfy%2BnRArpf8QcaUlfRALIW3%2BxY0BgiLcgOOlxVjf9hpEV%2FdGUUsKcsn6P%2B4BVaT%2BVA%2BMOql%2BgznG%2BcmF3crBu0UHdZea%2BpXBcVphCnlo3Y9BxXE9w7r0toAMGwQ4afVbK4%2BvclbDAU1z8tLZSFjk0rRpA2pD6Bdv6cgulb4EU6%2FL7ERo0WVtC%2BQ7Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMgLOKvuFk>
> >
> > The rods going from the servo to the cutting "needle" will be steel rod 0.5 - 0.8 mm. I have to check what size is stiff enough not to bend during cutting. The rod will be epoxy glued to the needle. The needle will move in a 3-d printed
> > template ensuring correct distance between bit-holes.
> > /Lasse
> > On Friday, November 8, 2024 at 3:04:48 PM UTC+2 lars silen wrote:
> >
> > To get the paper tape I plan to start from cash register tape. I would use a template to enable me to use my band saw to cut paper tape to the correct width.
> > /Lasse
> >
> > On Friday, November 8, 2024 at 2:55:08 PM UTC+2 hans...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > He is talking about a puncher, not a reader. There are already dozens of designs for optical readers in the web.
> > A puncher is much harder because it need to be mechanical if you want it to work like in the old days.
> > That's probably why working punchers go for a premium. Also, the tape is getting harder to come by.
> >
> > I have been thinking about an alternative project with a combination of 2 methods:
> > - Some type of simple optical reader that can read old tapes but also "tape" with black holes printed on it with a standard (laser)printer.
> > - An application (MS-word script?) that can print "tape" on A4 or rather A3 standard paper that can be cut out and glued into "paper tapes".
> >
> > Now to find the time to create this... :)
> > grtz, Hans
> >
> > Op vr 8 nov 2024 om 13:38 schreef Flavio Villanustre <fvilla...@gmail.com>:
> >

> > Does it need to be that faithful? If you replace the moving pins by LEDs and photodiodes, you can have something that can be built with less complication and cheaply. There is this project using an arduino here: https://www.e-basteln.de/computing/papertape/building/#start <https://www.e-basteln.de/computing/papertape/building/#start> <https://www.e-basteln.de/computing/papertape/building/#start <https://www.e-basteln.de/computing/papertape/building/#start>> and they claim 1M/second, but with optical readers instead. Besides, optical readers were used back then too, IIRC. If you don't like the hand pull, you can use a little motor, as you described.

> >
> > Yes, I know, it's all about reproducing the feeling :)
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Flavio Villanustre
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 7:27 AM lars silen <larse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I have been looking for a DIY paper tape punch. There are many paper tape readers available and they are easy to build. I haven't found any DIY working punch.
> >
> > My plan is to make my own punch based on a MEGA2560 micro controller that controls 9 RC-servos used to punch the paper. A stepper motor drives a rubber belt used to move the tape. For the cutting "needles" I would use stainless steel pipe in the correct dimensions for data holes and the movement track cut to short lengths at an angle and sharpened.
> >
> > Serial data would be sent to the MEGA2560 controller that converts each character to on/off positions for the stepper motors. The operating sequence would the be roughly:
> >
> > 1. wait for and read a character
> > 2. move servos to punch the paper tape
> > 3. move all servos to off position
> > 4. use the stepper motor to move the tape one step forward
> > 5. Go back to step one
> >
> > My question is:
> > Did the old time punches work as described above or was some more fancy protocol used?
> >
> > The body of the punch would be 3-d printed (the first version is being printed as I write the text). 9-servos are arranged into a tower with the servos staggered 3 mm from servo to servo to make space for the rods going to the cutting heads.
> >
> > I am well aware that the punch will be extremely slow ... but who cares. A future reader can be much faster. Of course a paper tape punch is absolutely useless but this is computer archeology so again ... who cares when it is fun.
> >
> > The servos will be small Chinese 9g servos. Ten servos will cost 10-15 euros.
> >
> > Good ideas are welcome :) .
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.

> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
> >

> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
> >

> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/80ff3b62-0b71-4163-b072-0202ba53954en%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/80ff3b62-0b71-4163-b072-0202ba53954en%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/80ff3b62-0b71-4163-b072-0202ba53954en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/80ff3b62-0b71-4163-b072-0202ba53954en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
> >

> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/56a2b83f-8751-4d00-863a-df12e7e6efcbn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/56a2b83f-8751-4d00-863a-df12e7e6efcbn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/56a2b83f-8751-4d00-863a-df12e7e6efcbn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/56a2b83f-8751-4d00-863a-df12e7e6efcbn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com <mailto:pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com>.

> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9c70d83c-07c4-4825-bbd4-7e929649db70n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9c70d83c-07c4-4825-bbd4-7e929649db70n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9c70d83c-07c4-4825-bbd4-7e929649db70n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9c70d83c-07c4-4825-bbd4-7e929649db70n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com <mailto:pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com>.

> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/b6540eb2-8df6-485a-8dff-b87d1bfd1af6n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/b6540eb2-8df6-485a-8dff-b87d1bfd1af6n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Someone pointed out that flight strips are the right dimensions; at least they are one inch wide as per ECMA-10.

https://www.hermieusupply.com/en-EN/flight-strip.html

[lars silen]

I also already ordered drill bits both for drilling the die and punch supports and also drills to be used for punches. The dimensions I ordered

were 1.2 mm (small punch), 1.3 mm for die and supports, 1.8 mm for punches and 1.9 mm for die.

Nice to hear that you have got inspiration! I'll collect some images of what I have done so far. Of course this is work in progress and there are

changes every day. Images makes it easier to see what I am trying to do.

Presently most changes are simplifications of the initial design. To paraphrase a German saying, I am not German,  "Why make it simple when you can make it

very beautiful and complicated" :) .

Most parts will be 3-d printed simply because this is the easiest and fastest way for me to produce necessary parts. Some of the parts are fairly

small and just on the limit of what I am able to print using my  Anycubic I3 mega that I got as trash and fixed it (it has worked well for over one year). 

/Lasse 

[lars silen]

Interesting! Nice to know!

/Lasse

[Mike Katz]

Lars,

Thermal paper is extremely thin and easily ripped when compared to regular paper tape from the 70's.  Most readers pull the tape through by the index/feed hole.

If you find a source of fan fold paper tape, please post it as I would love to purchase some for my PC05.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/dca26a81-6562-4710-bfb5-e32e80df0d38n%40googlegroups.com.

[Steven A. Falco]

I have been thinking about sources for paper tape.

Then I remembered that there was once 1 inch wide audio tape, used in 16-track recording studios. It is typically only 1.5 mil thick (0.0381 mm) so it might not be great (standard paper tape is around 0.1 mm thick), but it is mylar so it should be strong enough if it can be punched cleanly.

I found a reel of it on ebay so I've taken a chance and bought it. Audio tape of that era suffers from a phenomenon called shed-sticky where the backing can become sticky. I've had that problem myself on some old 1/4" reel-to-reel tapes. It can be worked around temporarily by baking the tape in a dehydrator to remove the moisture that makes it sticky.

No idea if this will be usable, but I'll find out. :-)

There is also "audio leader tape", which was used at the beginning and end of a tape to protect it. It is "uncoated" so it should not have any stickiness issues. Here is a listing for one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/114747013921

I don't know if it is opaque enough for an optical reader, but if not, perhaps it can be dyed. And again thickness and ability to be punched may be an issue.

Steve

[lars silen]

I have now received some of the needed parts for a first prototype. I made a "print head" from a 3-d printed base to which a glued brass inserts using epoxy glue. The whole

package was drilled as one set to ensure perfect fitting of the punches. One punch made from a 1.8 mm drill has been tested. Roughly one kg force (roughly 10 N) is

needed to punch a hole. The small servos provide 2.5 kg/cm which means that the could work as long as the movement arm is kept short.

I made a very short video of the system as tested today. The next step will be to design a riser for the two servo towers and a new punch head to match that configuration.

The video below shows the movement of the servos when a text string "abcdefghij" is sent to the punch. The servos are staggered by 2.5 mm to provide space for the control

rods for the punch. The first prototype will use direct connections from the servos to the punch ... if there are some problems they will be solved as they appear.

https://youtu.be/jFgmEszrLb0

/Lasse

[Steve Falco]

I've been trying to build a punch block.  I started with some "O1" tool steel.  I  cut three pieces: the top place is spaced 15mm above the other two and is intended to help stabilize the punches.  The middle piece is a guide for the punches, and the bottom piece is the die block.  I used some modified x-acto blades as shims to space the bottom pieces sufficiently to allow the paper to be threaded through.  They also act as side guides to keep the paper tape running true.

The tool steel pieces were hardened and tempered after drilling.  In the first photo they appear silver and in the second photo after tempering they appear blue/black. The whole thing is held together with "roll pins" and I also used some 2mm brass spacers.

I tried punching the mylar tape that I bought but it doesn't cut cleanly, so it is unfortunately no good for this.  Instead, for a test, I cut a strip of plain paper and hand-punched it, since I don't have any motors or electronics at this point.

I'm not sure if this project will be successful or not - the drill bits that I am using for the punches tend to bind up in a few of the holes.  I suppose I could try lapping them with an abrasive paste to get a better fit.

On the left side of the photo below you can see the highly modified x-acto blade shims.  They are apparently made from hardened steel and they were very tough to drill.  I have some solid carbide bits - super brittle but they will drill hardened steel as long as you have a drill press to keep them going straight.  Any sideways force and they shatter.

And here is the assembly and some test scraps, hand punched.

[Adrian Nicol]

Looks like good progress - well done!

For the die plate at least, I would be tempted to ream rather than drill to the finished hole diameter and, to my surprise, I see Amazon UK have 1.8mm dia Tungsten Carbide machine reamers at ~13 GBP for two! However most usual tool suppliers should carry them I would have thought.

I think for the die plate I would only have tempered to a light straw rather than blue as I would rather wear out/damage the face of a punch than the edge of the hole.

Running a surface grinder over the top of the reamed holes after hardening (err...that's hardening the plate - I find holes are difficult to harden!) would give you a pretty good cutting edge I think, I no longer have one but it's the kind of thing a small local shop might  do for very little charge.

I would say it looks a very promising start, good luck with it!

Adrian

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/6b1aba69-cf98-46c5-bc9b-0372629a4c3dn%40googlegroups.com.

[Steven A. Falco]

Thanks for the tips! I see that uxcell has reamers in 1.2mm (for the feed hole) and 1.8mm (for the data bits) on Amazon. Maybe I'll give that a try at some point, but the reviews were not encouraging. I guess I need to find a proper machine tool supplier, but it's a slippery slope. :-)

As to color, I tempered for 1 hour at ~205 C. From what I've read, the colors continue to darken as the temper continues, because the oxide layer keeps getting thicker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering_(metallurgy) says "Steel in a tempering oven, held at 205 °C (401 °F) for a long time, will begin to turn brown, purple, or blue, even though the temperature did not exceed that needed to produce a light-straw color." But you are correct - straw color is what I'd go for if I were doing a torch temper without an oven.

Before tempering I ran the plates over 400 grit silicon carbide sandpaper (with oil), so the holes are probably fairly well defined. I need to play with it more to see if I can improve things.

Steve

On 12/6/24 04:38 PM, Adrian Nicol wrote:
> Looks like good progress - well done!
>
> For the die plate at least, I would be tempted to ream rather than drill to the finished hole diameter and, to my surprise, I see Amazon UK have 1.8mm dia Tungsten Carbide machine reamers at ~13 GBP for two! However most usual tool suppliers should carry them I would have thought.
>
> I think for the die plate I would only have tempered to a light straw rather than blue as I would rather wear out/damage the face of a punch than the edge of the hole.
>
> Running a surface grinder over the top of the reamed holes after hardening (err...that's hardening the plate - I find holes are difficult to harden!) would give you a pretty good cutting edge I think, I no longer have one but it's the kind of thing a small local shop might  do for very little charge.
>
> I would say it looks a very promising start, good luck with it!
>
> Adrian
>
>
> On 06/12/2024 20:50, Steve Falco wrote:
>> I've been trying to build a punch block.  I started with some "O1" tool steel.  I  cut three pieces: the top place is spaced 15mm above the other two and is intended to help stabilize the punches.  The middle piece is a guide for the punches, and the bottom piece is the die block.  I used some modified x-acto blades as shims to space the bottom pieces sufficiently to allow the paper to be threaded through.  They also act as side guides to keep the paper tape running true.
>>
>> The tool steel pieces were hardened and tempered after drilling.  In the first photo they appear silver and in the second photo after tempering they appear blue/black. The whole thing is held together with "roll pins" and I also used some 2mm brass spacers.
>>
>> I tried punching the mylar tape that I bought but it doesn't cut cleanly, so it is unfortunately no good for this.  Instead, for a test, I cut a strip of plain paper and hand-punched it, since I don't have any motors or electronics at this point.
>>
>> I'm not sure if this project will be successful or not - the drill bits that I am using for the punches tend to bind up in a few of the holes.  I suppose I could try lapping them with an abrasive paste to get a better fit.
>>
>> On the left side of the photo below you can see the highly modified x-acto blade shims.  They are apparently made from hardened steel and they were very tough to drill.  I have some solid carbide bits - super brittle but they will drill hardened steel as long as you have a drill press to keep them going straight.  Any sideways force and they shatter.
>>

>> parts.jpg
>>
>> And here is the assembly and some test scraps, hand punched.
>>

>> >>      > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>>> Virus-free.www.avast.com <http://Virus-free.www.avast.com> <http://Virus-free.www.avast.com <http://Virus-free.www.avast.com>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?

>> utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>>>
>> >>      >
>> >>      > <#m_-1681257928413794629_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>> >>      >
>> >>      > On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 9:27 AM lars silen <larse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>      >
>> >>      > Looking into building a tool to create my own cutting needle from ordinary steel. I probably could start from a steel nail and form a cutter using a Dremel
>> >>      > type tool fixed in a 3d printed holder for the nail and the Dremel to secure alignment. Today's small diamond tools should allow me form a proper cutting edge
>> >>      > on the nail. Hardening the cutting area afterwards is no problem.
>> >>      > This is probable the easiest solution.
>> >>      > /Lasse
>> >>      > On Friday, November 8, 2024 at 3:29:38 PM UTC+2 tcb...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>      >
>> >>      > I would suggest using a harder tougher alloy steel that is heat treatable rather than stainless steel.
>> >>      > Stainless will wear very quickly.
>> >>      >
>> >>      > Tim Boan
>> >>      >
>> >>      >

>> >>      > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>>> Virus-free.www.avast.com <http://Virus-free.www.avast.com> <http://Virus-free.www.avast.com <http://Virus-free.www.avast.com>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?

>> utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>>>
>> >>      >
>> >>      > <#m_-1681257928413794629_m_-1508789085157215294_m_3293067561790523646_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>> >>      >
>> >>      > On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 8:14 AM lars silen <larse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>      >
>> >>      > To make the cutting needles I will try stainless steel:
>> >>      >
>> >>      > https://www.ebay.com/itm/186615346927?_skw=Stainless+steel+pipe+1.2+mm&var=694646891166&itmmeta=01JC5Y2K5VW0SYHG11H2N1HJ3E&hash=item2b732436ef:g:kIYAAOSw8tZhSs6g&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkNMTs2fwTXzy7W15vZj3Pw%2BM4B4zZ%2F1pn2ybgwpJMI9PjYausgYdnwciJ6xZwBA6CK38Rv4swFy%2BlDLDD99wzi41Ns0lTxVDahjMuuRaGGwSt0wwM2klfy%2BnRArpf8QcaUlfRALIW3%2BxY0BgiLcgOOlxVjf9hpEV%2FdGUUsKcsn6P%2B4BVaT%2BVA%2BMOql%2BgznG%2BcmF3crBu0UHdZea%2BpXBcVphCnlo3Y9BxXE9w7r0toAMGwQ4afVbK4%2BvclbDAU1z8tLZSFjk0rRpA2pD6Bdv6cgulb4EU6%2FL7ERo0WVtC%2BQ7Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMgLOKvuFk <https://www.ebay.com/itm/186615346927?

>> _skw=Stainless+steel+pipe+1.2+mm&var=694646891166&itmmeta=01JC5Y2K5VW0SYHG11H2N1HJ3E&hash=item2b732436ef:g:kIYAAOSw8tZhSs6g&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkNMTs2fwTXzy7W15vZj3Pw%2BM4B4zZ%2F1pn2ybgwpJMI9PjYausgYdnwciJ6xZwBA6CK38Rv4swFy%2BlDLDD99wzi41Ns0lTxVDahjMuuRaGGwSt0wwM2klfy%2BnRArpf8QcaUlfRALIW3%2BxY0BgiLcgOOlxVjf9hpEV%2FdGUUsKcsn6P%2B4BVaT%2BVA%2BMOql%2BgznG%2BcmF3crBu0UHdZea%2BpXBcVphCnlo3Y9BxXE9w7r0toAMGwQ4afVbK4%2BvclbDAU1z8tLZSFjk0rRpA2pD6Bdv6cgulb4EU6%2FL7ERo0WVtC%2BQ7Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMgLOKvuFk> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/186615346927?

>> >>      > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9b8f7174-d580-47a8-b89f-1ff06484488bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

>> >>      >
>> >>      > --
>> >>      > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
>> >>      > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
>> >>      >

>> >>      > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CAEUQ4QHoTNRnyt9wB-qaQCaLxATaun%2BQ0U%2BQPxG5a-TGv%2BR7CQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

>> >>      >
>> >>      > --
>> >>      > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
>> >>      > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
>> >>      >

>> >>      > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/80ff3b62-0b71-4163-b072-0202ba53954en%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/80ff3b62-0b71-4163-b072-0202ba53954en%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/80ff3b62-0b71-4163-b072-0202ba53954en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/80ff3b62-0b71-4163-b072-0202ba53954en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/80ff3b62-0b71-4163-b072-0202ba53954en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/80ff3b62-0b71-4163-b072-0202ba53954en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

>> >>      >
>> >>      > --
>> >>      > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
>> >>      > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
>> >>      >

>> >>      > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/56a2b83f-8751-4d00-863a-df12e7e6efcbn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/56a2b83f-8751-4d00-863a-df12e7e6efcbn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/56a2b83f-8751-4d00-863a-df12e7e6efcbn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/56a2b83f-8751-4d00-863a-df12e7e6efcbn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/56a2b83f-8751-4d00-863a-df12e7e6efcbn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/56a2b83f-8751-4d00-863a-df12e7e6efcbn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

>> >>      >
>> >>      > --
>> >>      > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
>> >>      > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com <mailto:pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com>.

>> >>      > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9c70d83c-07c4-4825-bbd4-7e929649db70n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9c70d83c-07c4-4825-bbd4-7e929649db70n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9c70d83c-07c4-4825-bbd4-7e929649db70n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9c70d83c-07c4-4825-bbd4-7e929649db70n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9c70d83c-07c4-4825-bbd4-7e929649db70n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/9c70d83c-07c4-4825-bbd4-7e929649db70n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com <mailto:pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com>.

>> >> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/b6540eb2-8df6-485a-8dff-b87d1bfd1af6n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/b6540eb2-8df6-485a-8dff-b87d1bfd1af6n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/b6540eb2-8df6-485a-8dff-b87d1bfd1af6n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.

>> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/6b1aba69-cf98-46c5-bc9b-0372629a4c3dn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/6b1aba69-cf98-46c5-bc9b-0372629a4c3dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com <mailto:pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com>.

> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/a913e952-59e3-4a66-af57-53444f59eddf%40nicol1.org.uk <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/a913e952-59e3-4a66-af57-53444f59eddf%40nicol1.org.uk?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[lars silen]

I did some experiments with KiCad to clean up the first connection bread board sitting between the Arduino Mega 2560 and the servos. The new board will also have a stepper motor controller suitable for a NEMA17 type stepper motor. I have a first rough prototype for paper movement. Moving the paper will initially be friction only.

The new virtual board is shown below:

[lars silen]

I created a github site for the punch that can be found at: 

https://github.com/larsesilen/Paper_tape_punch

I added the Arduino code for the Arduino Mega2560 micro controller used to drive the punch. I also added

OpenScad source code for the 3-d printed parts.

Feel free to check them out.

/Lasse

[andrew....@gmail.com]

Have you looked at injection-moulding ejector pins? They are used in moulding tools to eject the finished part. They come in suitable sizes (1.2 and 1.8 mm from memory) and a variety of materials.

These pins have a head to which a spring can be attached for retraction. Suitable compression springs are also available from suppliers.

Sleeves for the ejector pins are also available, machined to a clearance fit. The sleeves are meant to be used as guides for the pins, but might also be embedded in a plate to make a platen to punch through. For the latter use, they would need to be cut short so that the chads can't block them.

Good luck!

[lars silen]

New to me. Sounds very interesting. I will surely check it out. The main problem regarding the punch head is the dimensions of the parts and how to make a reliable punch head.
/Lasse

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "[PiDP-11]" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/pidp-11/7CZLWKJx_R0/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/7a17a173-2db9-4fe9-9723-0f66ddcec82cn%40googlegroups.com.

[Clem Cole]

Fools think alike: https://www.mcmaster.com/products/ejector-pins/ejector-pins~/

The question is how to get a punched edge on them as the "head" is flat to be a "push area, not a cut area, so it naturally tears the paper or whatever material.

(they make punch pins with that type of edge : https://www.mcmaster.com/products/ejector-pins/punch-pins~/ but they are not small enough in diameter )

BTW: I also have a lead on a source for a replacement for the paper using 1" mylar film made for party ribbons.  It's cheap and should be very durable -- if we can punch it easily. FWIW: It designed to be punched with hand paper punch

Clem

ᐧ

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/7a17a173-2db9-4fe9-9723-0f66ddcec82cn%40googlegroups.com.