Looking for a real PDP-10? Sad news re: Seattle's Computer Museum - it lives no more

[johntk...@gmail.com]

https://apple.news/ArVWMGPEYTw-QohqR3vzWrQ

[William Cattey]

This is terribly sad.  I've visited the LCM+L in 2017, and it was the BEST.

Paul Allen assembled the greatest restoration team in the world, and blasted through many obstacles to save precious old stuff from oblivion.

The loss of this place is huge.

-Bill

On Tuesday, June 25, 2024 at 10:07:23 AM UTC-4 johntk...@gmail.com wrote:

https://apple.news/ArVWMGPEYTw-QohqR3vzWrQ

[Andrew O'Neill]

Thank you, John. From the article:

https://www.christies.com/stories/gen-one-paul-allen-history-of-technology-ef080682a70e4a97a53864b475333b12

On Tue, 25 Jun 2024, 15:07 johntk...@gmail.com, <johntk...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://apple.news/ArVWMGPEYTw-QohqR3vzWrQ

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[Tim Radde]

My bigger pdp-8i system was bought for his collection.  I don't think it ever got put on display as it had some hardware issues.  I'd love to get it back but am sure

I can't afford it now if it even is in the auction list.

[Ken Hansen]

The good news is that there will soon be a fully-functioning, well-maintained PDP-10 on the market. The sad news is that it will be priced based on scarcity time/money invested into getting it to its present state.

I hope it finds a good home...

Ken

On Jun 25, 2024, at 11:06, Tim Radde <timr...@gmail.com> wrote:

My bigger pdp-8i system was bought for his collection.  I don't think it ever got put on display as it had some hardware issues.  I'd love to get it back but am sure

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[June Tate-Gans]

SAMSAT tried to nab some of the equipment, but sadly the request was met with "how much can you give me?"

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June Tate-Gans

On Jun 25, 2024, at 11:51 AM, Ken Hansen <n2...@w5fc.org> wrote:

The good news is that there will soon be a fully-functioning, well-maintained PDP-10 on the market. The sad news is that it will be priced based on scarcity time/money invested into getting it to its present state.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-10/6081CFCB-764C-4A34-B666-75729E389BB2%40w5fc.org.

[Mark Matlock]

   I am glad I was able to see the KI10 running at the LCM in March, 2019 when the VCF NW was held there. The CDC6500 was also running as was Missy Piggy, the PDP-11/70. At the time, we were given a tour of the basement where they stored the equipment that had not yet been operational. 

    One of the big issues at that time was that the freight elevator was broken by over loading it with a CRAY-2. As far as I know the freight elevator did not get repaired and using the passenger elevator to move the running systems from the 3rd floor was not viable. One person told me that to get the PDP-10 and CDC6500 out might involve a hole in the roof and a crane? I wonder if any of that has been accomplished?

Mark

On Jun 25, 2024, at 11:51 AM, Ken Hansen <n2...@w5fc.org> wrote:

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[Haritech (Gmail)]

It’s sad for sure and if they are not donating systems to o the museums that is despicable. That said I would love to pickup a smaller pdp8 and/or a teletype.  Doubt I can afford the prices though.  I have core memory planes for a pdp8e with moon lander in them. Would be fun to see if it’s still there after 35 years. 

Lawrence

On Jun 25, 2024, at 11:24, Mark Matlock <ma...@rsx11m.com> wrote:

   I am glad I was able to see the KI10 running at the LCM in March, 2019 when the VCF NW was held there. The CDC6500 was also running as was Missy Piggy, the PDP-11/70. At the time, we were given a tour of the basement where they stored the equipment that had not yet been operational. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-10/4B6C3D9A-03A2-4429-9868-ECED0F165A65%40rsx11m.com.

[June Tate-Gans]

Incidentally, I was not implying greed in this reply, that was unintentional. My main point was that they are not willing to donate machines, even to real museums.

-- 

June Tate-Gans

On Jun 25, 2024, at 12:20 PM, June Tate-Gans <ju...@theonelab.com> wrote:

SAMSAT tried to nab some of the equipment, but sadly the request was met with "how much can you give me?"

[Michael J. Kupec]

No, you nailed it on the head. 

It’s all greed. 

These old systems aren't like new used cars. They’re rare systems that do belong in open museums where folks can see them. 

Asking them if they would like to donate them, to het a response like, “Sure, how much do you want to pat first them!” Is pure greed on their part. 

It’s not like having to liquidate assets because you’ve gone out of business! 

Have a great Day!

Michael J Kupec 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 25, 2024, at 5:13 PM, 'June Tate-Gans' via PiDP-10 <pid...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Incidentally, I was not implying greed in this reply, that was unintentional. My main point was that they are not willing to donate machines, even to real museums.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-10/57D072A3-A644-4561-8D02-E5969244E45A%40theonelab.com.

[Ken Hansen]

Buried all the way down in the second & third paragraph of the linked-to article:

Allen’s estate, which has been managing and winding down his vast array of holdings since his death in 2018, confirmed to GeekWire that the 12-year-old museum is closed for good. The estate also announced Tuesday that some key pieces from Allen’s personal collection of computer artifacts, displayed over the years at Living Computers, will be auctioned by Christie’s as part of a broader sale of various Allen items later this year.

As directed by Allen’s wishes, proceeds from the sale of any items will go to charitable causes. Allen’s sister Jody Allen is the executor of his estate and for several years has been selling pieces of it, ranging from Seattle’s Cinerama movie theater, the Everett, Wash.-based Flying Heritage and Combat Armor Museum, Vulcan Productions, Stratolaunch, the superyacht Octopus, and more.

Museums buy artifacts from individuals/collectors and other museums all the time. 

(What do we call it when someone feels entitled to something owned by someone else?)

Paul Alken bought the PDP-10, hired workers to refurbish it and make it available for use for years, and now that he has passed (2018), he wants all his possessions sold off to benefit charity.

The PDP-10 is estimated by Christie's to sell for $30-40K, that's likely a small fraction of the money Allen investing in restoring and maintaining the now 50+ year-old system.

Ken

On Jun 25, 2024, at 17:43, Michael J. Kupec <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

No, you nailed it on the head. 

[Mike Ross]

Freight elevator was working fine when I was there in... 2022 IRC. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-10/4B6C3D9A-03A2-4429-9868-ECED0F165A65%40rsx11m.com.

--

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

[steve...@gmail.com]

I visited LCM+L in February, 2020 (with a non-colorblind friend) to color match the KA-10 front panel for Oscar. We used Katia, the LCM+L's KA-10. So the PiDP-10 was partially driven by LCM+L's KA-10.

Sigh ...

[Tim Radde]

What a beautiful machine.

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[Mark Matlock]

Steve,

    Thanks for sharing your photos! I’ll be using one of them for the screen background for my PiDP-10. I do hope that the PDP-10 makes its way to a museum where it can be maintained and cared after like it was at LCM prior to Mr. Allen’s passing.

Best,

Mark

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<PDP-10 Front Panel Colors.jpg><Katia Front Panel.JPG><Katia.JPG>

[Malcolm Ray]

I could never afford to buy Katia at auction, but I hope some of that PDP-branded fanfold paper tape comes up for sale!

[Michael Thompson]

I used the two KA10 front panels at the Rhode Island Computer Museum to determine the Pantone colors for Oscar. I wonder if Katia's front panel colors were significantly different from the ones at the RICM?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-10/d9056554-dc3c-4e4a-9097-2ad533d874a0n%40googlegroups.com.

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Michael Thompson

[steve...@gmail.com]

Mark,

I found what I think is a better photo on some website somewhere (I forgot where). To me it is a better picture. I use it as the screen background on my PiDP-10. Here it is:

-- steve

[steve...@gmail.com]

Michael,

We also used a Pantone color book. I think one difference is the upper right part of the panel is more of a tan color on Katia but white on the PiDP-10. It's probably because the two KA10 panels at RCIM are white not tan.

-- steve

[Mark Matlock]

Steve,

  Thanks for the additional photo. It is a great shot of the real PDP-10 console.

Best,

Mark

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<PDP10_Brochure_Cover.jpg>

[Michael Thompson]

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Michael Thompson

[johntk...@gmail.com]

It's good to know it's living on in the PiDP-10.

[johntk...@gmail.com]

Spent many Saturday's in the LCM!

[terry-...@glaver.org]

That's interesting - the LCM's left-side indicators (RUN and friends) are red and look like LEDs.

I thought all of the KA10 indicators were incandescent lamps? Were the LCM ones replaced with LEDs at some point?

[Ric Werme]

Terry wrote:  I thought all of the KA10 indicators were incandescent lamps? Were the LCM ones replaced with LEDs at some point?

All KA10 (and peripheral) indicators were incandescent lamps.  For some reason, CMU's didn't burn out but Harvard replaced all their console lamps with LEDs, which just looked wrong, especially at low duty cycles (ref the "PI7 glow" when the scheduler was having trouble finding a job to run).

At the MIT Museum PiDP-10 demonstration, I was thrilled to hear that the PiDP-10 software emulates the light curve of incandescent lamps.  I had been wondering why the display looked so realistic.

Per Wikipedia:

Initial commercial development

Until 1968, visible and infrared LEDs were extremely costly, on the order of US$200 per unit, and so had little practical use.[30] The first commercial visible-wavelength LEDs used GaAsP semiconductors and were commonly used as replacements for incandescent and neon indicator lamps, and in seven-segment displays, first in expensive equipment such as laboratory and electronics test equipment, then later in such appliances as calculators, TVs, radios, telephones, as well as watches.[31]

[Clem Cole]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 9:08 AM Ric Werme <r...@wermenh.com> wrote:

For some reason, CMU's didn't burn out 

There was a box of replacements in the HW engineering office. (Today,  I even have at least one in the drawer on my desk where I am typing this message - it's marked S7003). In my time at CMU as an operator for both the Computer Center and CS, I personally replaced a few. The operators were all taught to look for them and replace them when needed. Some of the systems had a 'lamp test' button.   It was one of the things I would do at 2-3 AM when I had the overnight shift and things had died down, walk through the machine room and look for dead lamps.  The good news is that most equipment used the same 2-pin lamps, from printers to the memory unit.

ᐧ

[Steven A. Falco]

On 6/28/24 11:00 AM, Clem Cole wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 9:08 AM Ric Werme <r...@wermenh.com <mailto:r...@wermenh.com>> wrote:
>
> For some reason, CMU's didn't burn out
>
> There was a box of replacements in the HW engineering office. (Today,  I even have at least one in the drawer on my desk where I am typing this message - it's marked S7003). In my time at CMU as an operator for both the Computer Center and CS, I personally replaced a few. The operators were all taught to look for them and replace them when needed. Some of the systems had a 'lamp test' button.   It was one of the things I would do at 2-3 AM when I had the overnight shift and things had died down, walk through the machine room and look for dead lamps. The good news is that most equipment used the same 2-pin lamps, from printers to the memory unit.

Just curious - how do you remove and replace those? Do you have to remove the front panel, or do they slide in from the back? I imagine DEC had to make it fairly easy, but I haven't found a service manual that shows lamp replacement.

Steve

[Clem Cole]

The truth is, I've forgotten.  Each system was different.  Sometimes, a cover unscrewed or popped off.  For instance, on 2314 disks, you popped off the unit number cover (which were sexed then had access to the bulb, but you had to be careful with those since popping off the number cover would take the drive off-line).  I seem to remember that for one of the printers, you opened the cover, popped the lamp out of its mount (with its connector), and replaced it from the back - but I know all the printers did not work that way - like the Printronix which took the lamps from the front.  My memory is that most lamps were replaced from the front on most devices.  ISTR on the DEC systems, there was a pop-off panel that gave access to all of the lights, but that could have been a number if different systems. IIRC on the 1108 and IBM 360, you could unscrew a cover for each light, pop out the bulb and screw back in the cover. But I also remember some devices you had to remove a panel.   

ᐧ

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