PicoChess v4 Trixie Images [ 22 Oct 2025 ]

[RandyR]

Hi Everyone,

I have decided to revert the v4 Trixie images to match what you would have when carrying out the steps outlined on Johan's GitHub repo. In other words, for those who are not comfortable building your own v4 images, these are meant for you. They only contain those files present on GitHub.

This should make it easier for Johan to continue evolving his code without worrying about added user's files causing issues or supporting different engines at this early stage in development. This doesn't mean you can't use the engines from v3.4, you can. It just means you will have to have some Linux skills to copy over the /opt/picochess/engines folder from a v3.4 image to the v4 system. You could also copy over other files not present in v4 (due to limited space available on GitHub), e.g tablebases, other voice files, etc.

One issue some people have already noticed is that Bluetooth may be OFF after you boot the image for the first time. For the Desktop image it's a matter of using a mouse on the desktop (Alt+F4 on an attached keyboard to close the browser - or use the Exit PicoChess function in the System/Power menu) and enable Bluetooth via the BT icon at the top right. On the Lite image it is a bit more involved - you will have to log in via SSH and execute the command 'sudo rfkill unblock all'. You can also use this method on the Desktop, if needed. If this continues to be an issue we may need to add a one-shot script to take care of it.

If you see any functionality issues while testing and would like to let Johan know, either open a topic on this forum or, if you have a (free) GitHub account, you can open an Issue on Johan's repo (if not already opened) or start/join a Discussion..

Enjoy.

Randy

Here are the links to the images:

PicoChess v4 DGTPi Image (2.4 GB)

PicoChess v4 Desktop Image (2.9 GB)

[Johan Sjöblom]

Thanks Randy. I will create an update engines mechanism from the Picochess menu. For that I would need a resource file in tar.gz format taken from engines/aarch64. What do you think I should use as a source for that? I could use the V4 desktop image you made a few days ago?

[Randy Reade]

Yes. That could work but the folders should probably be rearranged going forward: maia_weights to engine folder, rename mame folder to mame_scripts, move mame_emulation inside aarch64 and rename to mame, and fix paths in mame_scripts files, retro.ini, all_retro.ini, and maiav0330-dev.uci. There might be more... 

Randy

[Johan Sjöblom]

Agree. I hope I could at least separate out maia_weights to begin with. And I need to figure out if symbolic links is a problen when doing tar -czf

[Randy Reade]

That should work fine. 

[Johan Sjöblom]

I started to make some basic refactoring changes to the install-picochess.sh so I hope it still works. The bravest one who makes the next V4 based on a clean Pi stock image let me know if it works, ... or if it doesnt :-) I had to make some basic cleanups first before starting a new feature branch to create an engines-resource update menu option that could fetch a V3.4 engine set from within the menu...

[Johan Sjöblom]

Ok brave testers of V4.

There is now a manual mechanism to get Randy's latest lite/DGT engines including lc0 personalities like meangirl etc and many maia options.

You can get them on your existing V4 images or you can use the latest image made by Randy some days ago.

You do need the latest picochess on your installation to do this, that is step 1 below.

1. First you need to either do a picochess update from the menu or do a git pull so that you get the new utility script that moves away your existing engines to /home/pi/pico_backups

> cd /opt/picochess

> git pull

2. Now for a brave part, move your existing engines to backup (good to have them in case something goes wrong). You can do this step yoursel and move the two directories engines/aarch64 and engines/lc0_weights to anywhere you like, just make sure that those directories are removed so that step 3 goes and fetches the latest engines

> ./move-engines-to-backup.sh

or

> cd engines

> mv lc0_weights to-wherever-you-like

> mv aarch64 to-wherever-you-like

3. Run install-picochess again either by running update picochess from the menu or by running the script like this. Note this script requires sudo.

> cd /opt/picochess

> sudo ./install-picochess.sh

Step 3 should download Randy's new image setup.

I will proceed and at some point make a menu option that is "stronger" than the picochess update and performs steps 2 and 3 above, and then updates picochess step 1. The reason why you need to do step 1 first now if you run it manually is because you need to get the install-engines script (which is already in 4.1.6) and the new script needed in step 2

Ideas, feedback, comments are welcome. The vision is to make a system where it would be easy to get new engine sets...

As this first engine update test is based on the DGT/lite image made by Randy a few days ago it does not contain transformers, windows and linux engines.

yours, Johan

[Johan Sjöblom]

Now there is a Menu option under System-Power that says "Replace engines with latest", or shorter on DGT clocks "Upd Engines". This will move away your existing engines to backup and download the latest DGT/Lite engine package made by Randy.

[Johan Sjöblom]

The engine files downloaded manually or using menu are fairly big, half a Gigabyte each.

I have tested this a few times and the download + extract can fail, especially if the system is old and out of date.

At the moment I would recommend the manual method so that "you are in control"... I would only use the menu system on a DGT3000 if I can not add a display.

Here are some simple things that increase the probability of success:

1. Make sure the system is updated first as a separate task. Manually: run sudo /opt/picochess/install-picochess.sh, or from the Menu System-Power "update picochess".

2. An extra reboot for the updated system!! Yes, to further increase probability that everything works: Reboot once with the new system to make sure everything is fresh. Manually reboot, or ask for reboot from the manu (or a second time of update picochess)

3. NOW you have a fresh system and updating the engines should work... Manually as written above, or from the menu.

BR, Johan

[Johan Sjöblom]

Improved the scripts for engine resource download so that if extract fails it will copy back the engines from backup.

The script used can be used manually too: restore-engines-from-backup.sh which does the opposite of the move-engines-to-backup.sh.
Anyway, now the engine resource download should be more safe to use...

[Johan Sjöblom]

Right, found the problem with the engine updates from the menu thanks to Randys testing. As many other times when you attempt an optimisation it causes problems. There is a protection in the picochess menu updates that protects against updates run less than 10 minutes (600 seconds) apart. I originally made this to avoid getting into an infinite reboot loop for any user... If it has updated in the last 10 minutes, then it wont update again.

This will impact those who try to run the engine update from the menu. This is how it now fails:

-  (1) do a update pico from the menu which reboots and runs install-picochess.sh (that starts a 10min timer)

- and then (2) proceed to ask for engine replace in the menu --> it will move the engines to backup, but it will not run install-picochess as 10 minutes has not passed since step 1.

HOW TO AVOID the problem already now:

If you have a coffee in between these steps, or have updated step 1 manually by "git pull" or by running install-picochess.sh manually and not from the menu, then you are fine. The 10 minute timer only comes from using the update menu in Picochess.

I will create a PR to fix this...

[Johan Sjöblom]

The issue to use picochess menu to get the latest engines for a base V4 image is now fixed! To use it you need to get the latest version (step 1)

1. Note that you first need to do an update with git pull and then run sudo install-picochess.sh. This is needed to get this new solution in place. Git pull will fetch the latest install-picochess.sh file and running it will put the new updater in place. The new updater is now capable of updating engines to the latest engine set (which at the moment is the lite/DGT set).

2. After the next reboot with this clean new system, and hopefully with all versions after this, you can update the engines to the latest set by choosing System-Power and the "replace engines with latest". Note that this does take quite much time at next boot. It will download ~1G of engines and lc0_weights at 0,5G each. When download finishes picochess starts. So be patient.

We are getting close to a verified way to update engines from the menu without writing new images. When we can see that this is stable and working we should try to do the same with opening books and possible other resources?

yours, Johan

[Randy Reade]

This worked for me, Johan. Nice work.

Randy

[Johan Sjöblom]

Hi again brave testers of V4.

To get a fully working engine update from the menu was harder than expected. Randy, you had a bit of luck with the timings, but I found that it could still fail.

The hotfixes I made  now to the updater is:

- Make sure to wait for network connection before updating... Otherwise for example engine update fails on not finding github.com.

- Make sure the updater is run before picochess tries to start... I had to add After=picochess-update.service to the picochess.service to make sure we dont try to start picochess in the middle of an engine download. Otherwise picochess will just say "error" as it did not find any engines.

--> you need to do step 1 again to get this hotfix into place, git pull and run sudo ./install-picochess.sh... Then reboot. 

I tested this and I did not manage to cause any more problems on my Pi 4. BUT: I did discover a practical question!

When we update the entire engine package the picochess.ini might be remembering and pointing to an engine that no longer exists !! Again - Picochess start will fail.

At the moment the only quick workaround I can think about is that remember to switch to a-stockf before upgrading engines as we typically guarantee that it always exists. The LC0 keeps changing its name as we have gone from version 0.31 to 0.33 dev...

There are a few long term solutions... We can force an engine switch to a-stockf when user asks for a new engine replacement set... Or, perhaps better, on startup check that the engine still exists and if not, fall back to the first engine on the (new) list. I would prefer to make this later one.

BR, Johan

[Randy Reade]

Yes. I like the latter idea as well. 

[Johan Sjöblom]

I added the mame_engines and rodent folders to the install-engine, so now you get the complete package when running sudo install-picochess, or install-engine (note install-engine does not require sudo).

If these folders are missing a pico update will fetch them.

[Johan Sjöblom]

The vision is to create an easy way to update a full engine set. Whenever Randy has built a new engine set we can create a resource from it, from a V3 image for instance, and upload the new resource file to V4 github. If the vision becomes reality we would only need new V4 images when there are some big updates like Trixie in Raspberry Pi. All software could be updated from the menu, and all engines, and opening books could be updated from the menu. That is the vision.

I am working towards this step by step. Now the system update and engines replacement work. As the next step I need to figure out a mechanism how to chose between the ”small” engine set with fast and quick installation of a new V4, and the current fairly large engine set. It now downloads all lite engines and mame emulation.

My first thought is that I would make the small engine set default so that a first installation is faster (now large lite is default). It would mean that running install-picochess on a clean stock Pi image would only install Stockfish 16, 17, and LC0 as it was before I started experimenting with this engine replacement update. Anyone who want a larger or latest engine set could then do ”replace engines” from the pico menu. The small first install would also make an easier base for Randy to make a small V4 image for everyone with limited size.

Comments are welcome… Not sure when I will do this update but I expect within days or a week.

— Johan

[Luigi Vogliobene]

Hi Johan,

I manually update the engines (./install-engines.sh) after deleting the "aarch64" folder: 

1. the Rodent engine work but any of the MAME engins work, I get the "error engine" message.

2. after the update of the engines, the boot of picochess always (I tried two restarts) last 10 minutes before to run picochess.

Thank you.

Luigi 

[Luigi Vogliobene]

Hi Johan,

after the manual installing of picochess (sudo ./install-picochess.sh) the issues are gone. All is working good.

Thank you.

Luigi

[Johan Sjöblom]

Did you update picochess before running install-engines?

To see what is wrong, try

>cat /opt/picochess/logs/picochess.log | grep error

I found that mame engines need this:

>sudo apt -y install xdotool

If you still have problems

If you have updated picochess I recomend running:

>sudo ./install-picochess.sh

If you have NOT updated, I recommend running it twice. You do not need to reboot in between.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PicoChess" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to picochess+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/picochess/83ff102b-2e9d-4b65-93b6-a12d557aa6fcn%40googlegroups.com.

[Johan Sjöblom]

Oh, I missed your message Luigi. Good to hear that it now works. And thank you for testing and reporting.

I did update the install-picochess to also run sudo apt -y install xdotool, so that anyone who updates from menu or by running install-picochess would get this needed package.

[Johan Sjöblom]

Ok now install-engines have been updated so that any default installation done by just running sudo ./install-picochess.sh on a stock image would only fetch the small amount of engines.

The methods to get the larger set of engines are now these two:

1. run install-engines with the parameter lite like this:

       >./install-engines.sh lite

    if you run it without parameters or with help or --help it will give this explanation

2. ask for "replace engines" from the menu just like now, it runs the install-engines with the lite parameter now

The small package is still too large, so I will try to make a smaller default package so that do not need to download 0,5G of lc0_weights... That will not change the logic, it will just make a smaller default package.

The idea is also to make a "desktop" package of engines at some point giving everyone then three options of engine packages: small, lite, and desktop.

Comments and ideas, or test results are welcome.

-- Johan

[Randy Reade]

I think that is a good plan, Johan. The initial minimal engine set will allow new users the ability to check out the functionality of PicoChess and then choose the engine pack they want to expand their engine set. We could even create separate engine packs for Standard/Modern, Retro, Script/Historic, Windows/Linux x86/x64, etc.

Once we make the switch to v4 I would probably continue making 2 images, one (Lite) aimed at the DGTPi, the other (Desktop) aimed at setups with a monitor or using later Pi versions.

Randy

[Aldo Bleeker]

I've noticed that the script and mame engines are installed for aarch64, but not for x86_64. At the moment both engines do not work for x86_64, but they both can be made to work, because they aren't native aarch64 binaries and don't depend on a specific CPU.

I think the script engines actually don't work for aarch64 either, because the files that start the engines don't look right to me. This is file adapt for instance:

#!/bin/bash

cd /opt/picochess/engines/script_engines/PyTuroChamp

/home/pi/.pyenv/versions/picochess-3.9.2/bin/python3 ptc_xboard.py adapt

On my computers the second path doesn't exist. As it points to python, I've changed it to the following:

/opt/picochess/venv/bin/python3 ptc_xboard.py adapt

After changing the start files, the script engines work on x86_64. I believe this will make them work on aarch64 as well.

I have to admit the mame engines are a bit tricky. The issue is that mame runs a rom, so this will work as is, but mame itself needs to be compiled for x86_64. I've tried it, and it's actually doable.

The good news is that after adding the files needed, both script and mame engines do work on my x86_64 installation.

Aldo

[RandyR]

Yes, nice catch. v3.4 is using python v3.9.2 and has the virtual environment in the pi home folder. So using the engines from v3.4 in v4 will require some editing to the script files to point to the virtual environment in the /opt/picochess folder. This should do it (backup the engines folder beforehand):

cd /opt/picochess/engines

grep -RiIl '/home/pi/.pyenv/versions/picochess-3.9.2/' | xargs sed -i 's/\/home\/pi\/.pyenv\/versions\/picochess-3.9.2\//\/opt\/picochess\/venv\//g'

As for using the retro engines (or any engines for that matter) on an x86 machine will require them to be compiled for that architecture, and using the x86_64 folder vice aarch64 in /opt/picochess/engines. Here is a link to the MAME executable (v0.279) for amd64.

Randy

[Johan Sjöblom]

Yes agree. Good that someone focuses also on script_engines. I have not worked at all with the script engines yet... The only special engine I have changed is the pgn_replay engine. I had to remove the code inside it that was using the old chess library, but the logic of replay is still the same. It was only using the old chess library to produce analysis information. pgn_engine.py is now in the github repository under engines/pgn_engine from where it can be copied to images and resource files (or linked). Its of course not depending on the architecture as its a python script.

Yes, the script engines should not be hardcoded to any specific Python version like 3.9.2. They need to point to the python3 in the virtual environment in /opt/picochess/venv/bin/python3

Randy's "magical" sed should make them work on both architectures.

And yes mame shoudl also on Debian... At the moment I have just focused to build the structure and resource files for engine-install upgrade/download for aarch64.

To make mame work for everyone else we would need to create a x86_64_mame.tar.gz file with the content of a mame_emulation directory. I could then upload such a file to github as a resource file and let install-engines download it in the same way on x86_64 as it does now on aarch64.

Johan

[waldomiro dias machado junior]

Hello friends, 

Will PicoChess V.4 support the operation of the Certabo Bluetooth Classic e-board, so that my device with a 10.1-inch monitor and Raspberry Pi 5 works correctly? 

In version 3.3 it doesn't work via USB because of insufficient power.

Waldomiro

Em segunda-feira, 10 de novembro de 2025, Johan Sjöblom <messi...@gmail.com> escreveu:

Sim, concordo. Que bom que alguém também está se dedicando aos mecanismos de script. Eu ainda não trabalhei com eles... O único mecanismo específico que modifiquei foi o pgn_replay. Tive que remover o código que usava a biblioteca antiga do Chess, mas a lógica de replay continua a mesma. Ele só usava a biblioteca antiga do Chess para gerar informações de análise. O arquivo pgn_engine.py agora está no repositório do GitHub em engines/pgn_engine, de onde pode ser copiado para images e resource files (ou vinculado). Ele não depende da arquitetura do sistema, pois é um script em Python.

Sim, os mecanismos de script não devem ser codificados para uma versão específica do Python, como a 3.9.2. Eles precisam apontar para o Python 3 no ambiente virtual em /opt/picochess/venv/bin/ python3.

O sed "mágico" de Randy deve fazê-los funcionar em ambas as arquiteturas.

E sim, o MAME também deveria funcionar no Debian... No momento, estou focado em construir a estrutura e os arquivos de recursos para a instalação, atualização e download do mecanismo para aarch64.

Para que o MAME funcione para todos, precisaríamos criar um arquivo x86_64_mame.tar.gz com o conteúdo de um diretório mame_emulation. Eu poderia então enviar esse arquivo para o GitHub como um arquivo de recurso e permitir que o install-engines o baixasse da mesma forma em x86_64 como faz atualmente em aarch64.

John

No domingo, 9 de novembro de 2025, às 23:07:00 UTC+2, RandyR escreveu:

Sim, ótima observação. A versão 3.4 usa o Python 3.9.2 e tem o ambiente virtual na pasta home do Raspberry Pi. Portanto, usar os engines da versão 3.4 na versão 4 exigirá algumas edições nos arquivos de script para apontar para o ambiente virtual na pasta /opt/picochess. Isso deve resolver o problema (faça um backup da pasta engines antes):

cd /opt/picochess/engines

grep -RiIl '/home/pi/.pyenv/versions/ picochess-3.9.2/' | xargs sed -i 's/\/home\/pi\/.pyenv\/ versions\/picochess-3.9.2\//\/ opt\/picochess\/venv\//g'

Para usar os motores retrô (ou qualquer motor, aliás) em uma máquina x86, será necessário compilá-los para essa arquitetura e usar a pasta x86_64 em vez de aarch64 em /opt/picochess/engines. Aqui está um link para o executável do MAME (v0.279) para amd64.

Randy

No domingo, 9 de novembro de 2025, às 11:32:03 UTC-8, Aldo Bleeker escreveu:

Notei que os mecanismos de script e MAME estão instalados para aarch64, mas não para x86_64. No momento, nenhum dos dois mecanismos funciona em x86_64, mas é possível fazê-los funcionar, pois não são binários nativos de aarch64 e não dependem de uma CPU específica.

Acho que os mecanismos de script também não funcionam para aarch64, porque os arquivos que os iniciam me parecem incorretos. Este é o arquivo adapt, por exemplo:

#!/bin/bash

cd /opt/picochess/engines/script_ engines/PyTuroChamp

/home/pi/.pyenv/versions/ picochess-3.9.2/bin/python3 ptc_xboard.py adapt

Nos meus computadores, o segundo caminho não existe. Como ele aponta para o Python, eu o alterei para o seguinte:

/opt/picochess/venv/bin/ python3 ptc_xboard.py adapt

Após a alteração dos arquivos de inicialização, os mecanismos de script funcionam em x86_64. Acredito que isso os tornará funcionais também em aarch64.

Tenho que admitir que os motores do MAME são um pouco complicados. O problema é que o MAME roda uma ROM, então isso funcionará sem alterações, mas o próprio MAME precisa ser compilado para x86_64. Eu tentei e é realmente possível.

A boa notícia é que, depois de adicionar os arquivos necessários, tanto o mecanismo de script quanto o MAME funcionam na minha instalação x86_64.

Aldo

Você
recebeu esta mensagem porque está inscrito no grupo "PicoChess" do Google Groups. Para cancelar sua inscrição neste grupo
e parar de receber e-mails dele, envie um e-mail para picochess+...@googlegroups.com .
Para visualizar esta discussão, acesse https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/picochess/611304b3-29b8-499a-a61f-d9f8219d83f2n%40googlegroups.com .

[Henri]

Hi Johan,

Just tried a produce a fresh version of Picochess by loading the latest Randy Trixie v.4 Desktop version on a Pi5, and updated it to 4.1.7.
I adapted the 'Replace Engines with Latest' finding out that almost none of the Special and Historical Engines are working... (engine error).

Can you check this out please?

Henri

Op maandag 10 november 2025 om 07:38:15 UTC+1 schreef messi...@gmail.com:

[Aldo Bleeker]

The script engines have to be modified to make them work. The files are found here:

/opt/picochess/engines/aarch64/script

(For x86_64 they should be placed in /opt/picochess/engines/x86_64/script, they're the same files.)

This directory contains files that start script engines (for example adapt). The files contain the following path:

/home/pi/.pyenv/versions/picochess-3.9.2/bin/python3 

This should be changed to:

/opt/picochess/venv/bin/python3

Aldo

[Aldo Bleeker]

This modification won't make all script engines work, but a number of them will.

Aldo

[Johan Sjöblom]

Yes, this is the current situation. In an earlier post in this chain Randy has a magical sed script that you can use,… but it wont fix them all as Aldo said. In another post Randy proposed that we could have different engine packs, modern, retro, etc. I think we need a separate engine scripts tar.gz file with a set of script engine where the path to the python3 in the venv folder and not any references to a specific python version like 3.9.2.

If we would to build smaller engine tar.gz compiles it would be easier to update them when needed.

Maybe next step would be to make script, linux and windows packages… and remove script engines from the lite package

[RandyR]

Yes. That's because the engines/script_engines folder is missing. You can download it here. Get it onto your Pi then, in a terminal, execute the following command:

tar -xvpzf script_engines.tar.gz -C /opt/picochess/engines

Randy

[Johan Sjöblom]

Thanks Randy. Updated install-engines.sh script so that it downloads and creates a script_engines folder if the folder does not exist.

After updating picochess with git pull or using the menu you get this updated script and can do:

> cd /opt/picochess

> ./install-engines.sh lite

In this case it does not matter if you give the option small or lite. lc0_weights and script_engines are same for both.

I also assumed that this is architecture independent, so it will download the same file both for aarch64 and x86_64.

In my understanding we still have to use Randys grep-sed "magical" command to update all the paths... Until I update the resource file aarch64_engines_lite.tar.gz in github with that fix.

But maybe there are more fixes that are needed than just doing the grep-sed? ... It does sound like I need to make a new aarch64_engines_lite.tar.gz resource file. The current one is from the latest 3.4 lite image.

-- Johan

[Henri]

Well, I did exactly what Randy told me above (I'm used to that), but I still get the same engine errors. Yes, the script folder is there now, I checked the file permissions and I rebooted. Can someone check if I am the only idiot who is having these troubles please?

Henri

Op donderdag 13 november 2025 om 07:48:53 UTC+1 schreef messi...@gmail.com:

[Johan Sjöblom]

I doubt you are the only one 😅

Can you give an example of one or a few engines that dont work so that I can test and see whats wrong.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PicoChess" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to picochess+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/picochess/b4d23330-b285-4652-937e-e32bb6999570n%40googlegroups.com.

[Henri]

Hi Johan,

Here goes for the whole folder:

Work: Sargon I, Stockfish DD

Not sure (never tried them): PGN Replay, Online FiCS, Online lichess

Don't work (engine error): Adeptive Engine (Centaur), Random mover, Sunfish, Feeks, AlphaBeta, NewCHess, Solver, TuroChamp, Plankalkul, Soma, Bernstein, Shannon, MacHack, Chess 05

Henri

Op donderdag 13 november 2025 om 12:46:27 UTC+1 schreef messi...@gmail.com:

[Randy Reade]

What error shows when running in a terminal? 

cd /opt/picochess/engines/aarch64/scripts

./adapt

[Henri]

./adapt: line 5: /home/pi/.pyenv/versions/picochess-3.9.2/bin/python3: No such file or directory

Op donderdag 13 november 2025 om 18:06:00 UTC+1 schreef RandyR:

[Randy Reade]

The archive I shared assumed that you had run/fixed the path to the python virtual environment, which is different in v4. See this post:

https://groups.google.com/g/picochess/c/TzY_UEVtrjQ/m/UCcXcMiJAAAJ

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PicoChess" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to picochess+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/picochess/ef487400-85e0-42aa-88c2-b9bb976491can%40googlegroups.com.

[Johan Sjöblom]

Yes, your grep-sed command works. I just ran it in the aarch64/script directory... Is that Randy enough as all the starting shell scripts are there? Or are there other locations pointing to picochess-3.9.2 folder?

I am playing against sunfish now. Lets see if I can beat it on 3 2.

Copied the script folder over to x86_64/script and also the favorites.ini and it plays of course equally nico on my Debian laptop.

-- Johan

[Randy Reade]

I would run it in the engines folder to be sure, or at least run the grep portion to check.

[Johan Sjöblom]

Quite..yes... thats a good way to check... And another fun attack game from my side when I defeated sunfish in a 3 2 battle. Comments automatically generated by picotutor...

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Bc5 6. c3 b5 7. Bc2 d6 8. d4 Bb6 9. h3 Bb7 10. Bg5 exd4 11. cxd4 O-O 12. Nc3 Qe8 13. Bxf6 gxf6 14. Nd5 Qd8 15. Nh4 { Best: Qd3 Score: 278 CPL: 59 } 15... Nxd4 16. Nxb6 Nxc2 17. Nf5 { Best: Nxa8 Score: 240 CPL: 73 } 17... h5 18. Qxh5 $3 { !! Mate in: 4 CPL: 0 DS: 99659 } 18... Ne3 19. fxe3 $3 { !! Mate in: 3 CPL: 0 DS: 99403 } 19... cxb6 20. Qg4+ Kh8 21. Qg7# 1-0

[Randy Reade]

What do the annotations mean? (You probably mentioned it elsewhere)

CPL

$3

DS

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PicoChess" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to picochess+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/picochess/423ec230-25b0-4112-ad14-e95a4dbd0f7dn%40googlegroups.com.

[Henri]

May I assume that the 'Replace Engines with Latest' has been updated so that the script-engines work?

Henri

Op donderdag 13 november 2025 om 19:02:01 UTC+1 schreef RandyR:

[Johan Sjöblom]

No, sorry Henri, I have not yet had time to make a new resource file... So you do need to run Randys command at the moment... I will need to compile a new package...

[Henri]

No problem Johan. I just take my job as a tester seriously... :)

Henri

Op donderdag 13 november 2025 om 19:29:17 UTC+1 schreef messi...@gmail.com:

[Johan Sjöblom]

And the annotations might still need some work... But heres the current state. My 18th move got a !! by picotutor and it looks like this:

18. Qxh5 $3 { !! Mate in: 4 CPL: 0 DS: 99659 }

The $3 is supposed to be recognized by chess programs such as SCID. As part of the PGN standard there are NAG-codes... So all evaluations like !! are encoded as $ somehing... !! is $3.

Since this is a standard I can place it immediately within the PGN flow of moves.

The {} notations is for commenting, but there is no standard for exactly what to write inside that. I write the human readable !! there as a comment so that humans dont have to remember $3 is !!.

Then I wanted some really shorthands, CPL = Centipawnloss, and DS is from the tutor science just for debugging, its how surprising a move when shallow/low/obvious 5-node analysis is compared to deep 17 node analysis

[Randy Reade]

Yes, you DO have that reputation, Henri. 😊

[Randy Reade]

Ahh, thanks for the explanation. 

[Johan Sjöblom]

Danny had a suggestion on how I could do it in a previous discussion... I just have not done that yet: https://groups.google.com/g/picochess/c/JZrqXXCjmY0/m/P9Pj6ZgUGAAJ

[Aldo Bleeker]

Actually, the script engines even work for  Debian x86_64 if you use the modified directory Script from aarch64. It isn't included in the x86_64 engine download.

After modifying the script, the engine Feeks still wasn't working. But I found the engine on Github, and just replaced the code in script_engines with the latest code from September 29, 2022, and that version does work. This code should also work on aarch64.

Aldo

[Aldo Bleeker]

That code can be found here:

https://github.com/folkertvanheusden/Feeks

It's written by Folkert van Heusden. Quite certain that the word Feeks, and the name of the programmer are Dutch.

Aldo

[Aldo Bleeker]

Fun fact: they are even mentioned in the Chess Programming Wiki. And they are indeed Dutch.

https://www.chessprogramming.org/Folkert_van_Heusden

Aldo

[Johan Sjöblom]

Yes, I also tested the script engines now on my Debian so I have to include them in the x86_64 resource file when I have time.

I guess one challenge with Feeks could be that it seems to use the old chess library "python-chess", and not the new "chess" ... so if it tries to use some features that have changed in the new chess library it will fail?

[Johan Sjöblom]

If some old python chess engine or other program (like the old V3 replay_engine) is to be run they would need a virtual environment (venv) set up for them where they can have the old python-chess library... Not sure if both can be in the same venv as the import chess statement is the same... So we might have challenges with python chess engines that are depending on the old python-chess library. Thats why I stripped out the library use out of the pgn_replay engine (no other modifications).

[Randy Reade]

Time to move forward. 

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PicoChess" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to picochess+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/picochess/beb950ab-2671-4ddd-9cdb-b1cb82d9b4f1n%40googlegroups.com.

[Henri]

Ok, tried fresh again to check the process regarding regarding the script_engines. Burned the latest Picochess 4 image, updated to 4.1.7 and and updated engines to recent.

A folder 'script' was made in aarch64, guess that should be 'scripts'. Adjusted that. The script_engines folder is there, so I applied the script to change paths to the proper python-version.

The script was executed without comments, so I presumed that everything was ok.

I still got the engine errors.

Looking closely at Randy's script I checked the locations. There is NO  /home/pi/.pyenv on the image....

Have I missed another post maybe?

Henri

Op donderdag 13 november 2025 om 20:55:28 UTC+1 schreef RandyR:

[Randy Reade]

Not sure if it is scripts or script, check the favorites.ini. I can't check now.

v4 doesn't use .pyenv in home/pi. That's why the grep/sed command needs to be run in opt/picochess/engines to fix the various engine script files. 

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "PicoChess" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/picochess/TzY_UEVtrjQ/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to picochess+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/picochess/9991a5f6-043f-4932-9d1f-1ad676f607f8n%40googlegroups.com.

[Aldo Bleeker]

Engines called from picochess should be placed in /opt/picochess/engines/aarch64. There you'll find favorites.ini, that calls the start files that contain the commands picochess calls when it's asked to start an engine.  According to favorites.ini, the start files should be placed in script (and yes, it's called script). Then the files in script start the engines that in turn are placed in /opt/picochess/script_engines. The start files use python to start the engine, and at the moment contain a path with pyenv and python 3.9.2. That's no longer true for v4, the files in script have to be modified to use env and python3. That's what that sed command does.

So if you got the error about pyenv/python 3.9.2, the files in script haven't yet been modified, and the sed command should be run on them.

Aldo

[Aldo Bleeker]

The engines themselves are not found in /opt/picochess/script_engines, but in /opt/picochess/engines/script_engines.

Aldo

[Henri]

Thank you Aldo (bedankt), that was educational for me. I started from scratch again and it seems the script engines are finally working, except for 'Feeks' that still gives an enigine error.

Henri

Op donderdag 13 november 2025 om 23:35:52 UTC+1 schreef Aldo Bleeker:

[Aldo Bleeker]

You're welcome! Actually, it took me a while to work out how this works.

The version of Feeks included with picochess throws an error, but when you replace the files in script_engines/feeks with the latest version I found on Github, it does work.

https://github.com/folkertvanheusden/Feeks/

You can download the latest version by clicking on the green button Code, and then on Download ZIP, and just replace the files in script_engines/feeks with those from the ZIP.

It looks like you also can get it working by changing line 10 in board.py from:

super(Board, self).__init__(f, c)

to:

super(Board, self).__init__(f)

But it's probably best to use the latest version.

Aldo

[Johan Sjöblom]

OK, Thanks for all testing efforts. Now Henri I updated the aarch64_engines_lite.tar.gz resource file in github so next one who installs engines will not have to do any sed-grep command.

Next I will update the script_engines.tar.gz... I guess there the only problem was the feeks folder which was old... I could replace it with the latest github version.

I removed the FICS and Lichess because 1) they dont work and 2) no point fixing them any more... Dirk had some post about a great plugin for chrome that can be used for that purpose? I did not actually remove any files, I just edited favorites.ini and removed them from that ini file which  means they dont appear in the menu choices.

pgn_replay is tested and works, you can set guess=0 to have a full replay, if you set guess to another value you can guess the next move as many times as you set the value... Just edit the pgn_engine.uci file in /opt/picochess/engines/aarch64/extra

[Johan Sjöblom]

and now also script_engines resource file updated with latest github fecs version

You can take "replace engines" from the menu, or you can use the install-engines.sh script.

How to use install-engines.sh script? Move away whatever directory you want to re-download, In this case if you move your /opt/picochess/engines/script_engines folder to some backup directory you have and run:

> cd /opt/picochess

> ./install-engines.sh lite

And if you want to wait for the half GB aarch64_engines_lite I updated instead of running the grep-sed, move your /opt/picochess/engines/aarch64 directory to a backup directory of your choice and rerun.

So install-engines.sh is designed to download any missing engine directory.

Hopefully now thanks to your testing someone who updates engines from the menu has a fully working solution....

PS. Did not fix any x86_64 files yet DS

[Johan Sjöblom]

I had to fix picochess a little bit to get Feeks working... So I do recommend you do a git pull before testing the script engines, especially Feeks...

[Johan Sjöblom]

Feeks actually seems to work... My attack on it was not so nice this time, but I tried, and it played until I lost on time just when going to do 25. Bxf5

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. O-O O-O 7. h3 c6 8. Bb3 { Best: a4 Score: 6 CPL: 49 } 8... b5 9. a3 a6 10. Be3 exd4 11. Nxd4 Nb8 12.Nf5 { Best: Qf3 Score: -52 CPL: 149 } 12... Bxf5 13. exf5 Ne8 14. Ne4 { Best: Qf3 Score: -22 CPL: 74 } 14... Kh8 15. c3 { Best: Qh5 Score: 25 CPL: 31 } 15... f6 16. Qh5 d5 17. Nc5 Bxc5 18. Bxc5 Rg8 19. Rae1 g6 20. fxg6 Rxg6 21. Re7 { Best: Bc2 Score: 509 CPL: 80 } 21... Ng7 22. Qh4 Qg8 23. Bc2 f5 24. Rfe1 Qc8

Turing keeps crashing... It never seems to make a move.

Now if a chess engine hangs, you can always force a move by pressing the play-pause button ||> it will force the engine to make a move, and if it doesnt withing 2 seconds, the engine will be restarted and user move automatically takeback.

[Dirk]

Hi Johan,

Martin (the author of some of our script engines) has informed me that you would need the latest PyTuroChamp Github version  for python 3.14 (on my system the old versions runs fine with the correct (old) python environment): 

https://github.com/mdoege/PyTuroChamp

Big thanks to Martin!

Dirk

[Luigi Vogliobene]

Hi,

I just wanted to point out that this chess engine does not work in version 4 of picochess. 

Thank you.

Luigi

[Johan Sjöblom]

About the turing PyTuroChamp engine: I updated the resource file with the latest github as Martin suggested.

There are 4 levels in the uci file... Not sure if level 4-stronger works, as I have not yet been patient enough to wait for a bestmove on that level :-)

But this engine was difficult to beat even on the lowest level 1, and it moved fast on that level.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. d4 Be7 6. dxe5 O-O 7. Nbd2 d5 8.Nb3 Be6 9. Be3 Qd7 10. Nbd4 Bg4 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Be2 a5 13. h3 Bf5 14. Qd4 a4 15. b4 axb3 16. axb3 Bg6 17. b4 Rfe8 18. Rxa8 Rxa8 19. Rd1 Re8 20. c4 Bh5 21.Rc1 Bxf3 22. Bxf3 Ng5 23.Bg4 f5 24. exf6 Nxh3+ 25. Bxh3 Qd6 26. fxe7 Qxb4 27.cxd5 Qxd4 28. Bxd4 I had tutor off so there are no comments...

Turing engine rocks :-)

[Johan Sjöblom]

Hello Luigi... and other brave testers. Thanks again for testing.

If you find non-mame engines that don't work with Pico v4 try to add this option to the uci file:

Analysis = false

You need to do a git pull to get the latest picochess that supports this new "dummy" option. This new option will prevent the Pico V4 from asking for any analysis info (score-depth-pv) from that engine. That should make it compatible with V3. On mame engines this is not needed as I do not try to get any analysis info from mame engines, but if you have retro engines that might have problems with this, use this option.

For script engines this would have the effect that it calls play instead of analysis and would not expect any info, but it should not be needed as the script engines seem to give info back.

[Randy Reade]

Yes. That works.

[Henri]

As far as I can see only Galjoen and Sayuri need 'Analysis - False' in the uci, the rest of the engines  seem to work.

Henri 

Op zaterdag 15 november 2025 om 15:30:57 UTC+1 schreef messi...@gmail.com:

[Luigi Vogliobene]

Hello Johan, Henri and Randy,

w/ the "Analyse = false" UCI option both the engines does work,

thank you.

Luigi

[Johan Sjöblom]

Great testing by everyone. Thanks. I realized that an even tighter test would be to have picotutor watcher and coach off when testing if engines needs this "Analysis = false".

When picotutor is off the selected engine is used to analyse on user turn, and if the engine has a problem with only that analysis it might now show if you have tutor on as the tutor is providing the analysis.

I will update the engine resource file lite with these 2 engines having the Analysis = false in their uci file (but not any more today).

[Henri]

A lot has to do with the fact that Picochess is a program that has SO many options and tweaks that testing will take months, and the only way to speed that process up is by introducing Picochess 4 as the 'official' version. But the basic program has to be ok, that's why I put so much emphasis on checking all of the engines before moving on to other stuff.

Henri

Op zondag 16 november 2025 om 19:28:59 UTC+1 schreef messi...@gmail.com:

[Johan Sjöblom]

Updated the aarch64_engines_lite.tar.gz file with Analysis = false for the two engines that needed it g-galjoe and h-sayuri

Thanks to all the testers... Now everyone else should get a full working engine set.

[RandyR]

I'm not sure Sayuri needs the 'Analysis = false' option. At least not on x86_64. It may have been an issue with the previously selected engine not terminating. Switching back and forth with Stockfish seems to be OK. Not like Galjoen.

[RandyR]

I was wrong - switching from Sayuri to Stockfish also hangs. Sayuri doesn't terminate. I'll test the new engine.py file.

[RandyR]

Yes. The new engine.py fixes the engine termination issue. Switching from Sayuri to any other engine now works correctly. Nicely done.

[Johan Sjöblom]

Thankx. Maybe it also fixes hanging windows engines...

[RandyR]

I'll try to test that.

It looks like dragontooth doesn't like v4. It's an engine written in the go language. It seems to work from the command line but perhaps it isn't compatible with the latest python-chess. I tried the Analysis = false and that didn't help. I don't think it supports all the uci commands and relies on go and stop. It doesn't appear to be supported or actively developed any more.

[Johan Sjöblom]

The only thing that comes to mind is that the new chess library automatically sends a ucinewgame when you start a new play or analysis. You are not even supposed to send ucinewgame as they have hidden it as an internal function. I do send it for mame engines using quite brute force self.engine.send_line("ucinewgame"). I should probably call the hidden function _ucinewgame instead... But the real question is why does the mame engines need an extra ucinewgame to be called? Or do they really?

[Randy Reade]

I'm not sure if MAME needs two 'ucinewgame' commands. My best guess is no, but Dirk might have some insight. You can have a look at the init.lua file in the mame_emulation/plugins/chessengine folder to see how the uci commands are processed.

[Dirk]

Nope - mame does not need two ucinewgames.

[RandyR]

I've had no issues running Windows or Linux x86 engines with Wine and Box64 installed via Pi-Apps in v4. I had to create a few .uci files (awit.uci, crafty.uci, crayblitz.uci) and modify stockfish16.uci so I could add the 'Analysis = false' option (all from the aarch64/windows64 folder of the v3 Desktop image). But none of the engines failed to terminate using the latest engine.py file.

Separately, the extra/pgn_engine script that starts the pgn_engine needs to be adjusted to point to the new engines/pgn_engine folder in the Lite engines pack. 

On Wednesday, November 19, 2025 at 10:42:35 AM UTC-8 messi...@gmail.com wrote:

[Johan Sjöblom]

Nice to hear that windows/linux engines also work. I think I should put them in a separate tar.gz as the current aarch64.lite.tar.gz is already half a Gb and it takes really long to update it on github.

About the pgn_engine script. I wanted to have an extra copy of pgn_engine.py and uci file in the resource file and not a link,... although the same file at the moment does exist in the repo. I would not like to make symbolic links from a resource file to files in the repo. Not sure how to deal with the pgn engine... It should maybe have a small repo of its own... but no one has time to maintain it I guess so its kind of "hanging in the repo" for now.... The script engines have their own repos, and pgn_engine and its audio files is an important part of the cultural legacy of picochess :-)

[Randy Reade]

I guess what I meant is that the Lite resource file has a pgn_engine.py from v3. I didn't think it worked in v4 and you altered the code and placed it in the engines folder? I didn't test it myself though. Perhaps the pgn_engine.py in the Lite resource file needs to be replaced with yours.

[Johan Sjöblom]

ah, right. In the aarch64.lite.tar.gz there is indeed a need to have the V4 pgn_engine.py ... (I have cut out the calls to old chess library analysis)

I had tested it and it does work. Checked the library content and tested it again now just to be sure :-)

There seems to be some formatting differences compared to the repo version but thats only because of black auto-formatting I think... functionality is V4.