[EE] Fast, Cheap, and Good PCB manufacturer
Forrest W Christian
AP circuits in Canada for the quickturn proto's where I just need a
board to validate a design that I'm not that certain of (and when I'm a
hurry)
PCBgeek.com, for where I can wait 10 days or so for full-spec PCB's,
primarily for those initial "not quite production" runs - where I need a
few boards to to final production testing (and beta units) with.
And PCBfabrication.com for my full-spec vscored, full-production boards.
Occasionally I find I need something like PCBgeek which will turn faster
than 10 days. That is, full spec (1 side silkscreen + 2 side mask)
boards, around a dozen or so (depending on board size) boards, no vscore
or special things. But I often need them in 2-3 days. Usually due to
lack of planning on my part, or sometimes just the desire to have full
spec boards for something I'm working on. PCBgeek is $90 shipped for
200sq in of boards, but like I said takes around 10 days or so, and
often more if there are customs issues.
What I'd like is someone that I could (in the US) send gerbers to and
have a dozen or so full-spec boards (typically around 10sq inches each)
show up on my door in 3-4 days (I.E. order over one weekend (aka by
Monday AM), and have it in hand for the next weekend (by Thu or Fri PM)).
So far, everything I've found is prohibitively expensive. So, really
what I'm asking for is all three: Fast, Cheap and Good. I know this
is likely unreasonable. I *am* willing to pay more for this, but not
the few hundred dollars I am often quoted. I'm envisioning $150 or so,
but I could live with $179 or so, for around 200 sq inches of boards,
delivered. But am open to suggestions.
Ideas?
-forrest
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Vitaliy
> What I'd like is someone that I could (in the US) send gerbers to and
> have a dozen or so full-spec boards (typically around 10sq inches each)
> show up on my door in 3-4 days (I.E. order over one weekend (aka by
> Monday AM), and have it in hand for the next weekend (by Thu or Fri PM)).
>
> So far, everything I've found is prohibitively expensive. So, really
> what I'm asking for is all three: Fast, Cheap and Good. I know this
> is likely unreasonable. I *am* willing to pay more for this, but not
> the few hundred dollars I am often quoted. I'm envisioning $150 or so,
> but I could live with $179 or so, for around 200 sq inches of boards,
> delivered. But am open to suggestions.
>
> Ideas?
You know, we just started using this new PCB proto place, but I can't for
the life of me find the URL. I will ask another engineer tomorrow.
We ordered two small boards from them: double sided, soldermask, silkscreen.
The cost was around $90, and they were delivered in three days (using 2nd
day shipping).
Vitaliy
Jesse Lackey
I go barebonespcb.com for the rough protos, pcbfabexpress for a few to
say 20 (they'll do all you want but it starts to not make sense after 20
or so), and then either pcbnet.com or more recently just let my contract
assembler handle the production ordering of boards.
You can choose 3,5,10 day turns, and there are some limits as to what
they can do in those times with a basic online quote but it is fine for
the majority of more "normal" boards.
They're in silicon valley.
J
Olin Lathrop
> But I often need them in 2-3 days. Usually due to
> lack of planning on my part,
Exactly.
We routinely do prototype PCBs, and the normal 1 1/2 to 2 week lead time is
usually not a problem. You send out for the PCBs as soon as you have the
board design done. Then while that's in process you create the BOM and
order parts. Parts will usually take a little less time to arrive than a
normal turn PCB, but not much. There are always other projects going on, so
you work on them while you wait the week or so for parts and boards of the
first project to arrive. With a little planning this is usually no issue
and no overall time is lost.
> So, really
> what I'm asking for is all three: Fast, Cheap and Good.
It doesn't work that way. You get to pick only two.
> I know this is likely unreasonable.
No, it is definitely unreasonable.
> I *am* willing to pay more for this, but not
> the few hundred dollars I am often quoted. I'm envisioning $150 or so,
> but I could live with $179 or so, for around 200 sq inches of boards,
> delivered.
That's unrealistic. If you really need fast, use Advanced Circuits, but it
will cost you.
> But am open to suggestions.
Plan better.
********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
Olin Lathrop
> We ordered two small boards from them: double sided, soldermask,
> silkscreen. The cost was around $90, and they were delivered in three
> days (using 2nd day shipping).
Sounds very good if the boards were tested. However, I bet is wasn't 200
square inches as the OP wants.
********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
Vitaliy
>> What I'd like is someone that I could (in the US) send gerbers to and
>> have a dozen or so full-spec boards (typically around 10sq inches each)
>> show up on my door in 3-4 days (I.E. order over one weekend (aka by
>> Monday AM), and have it in hand for the next weekend (by Thu or Fri PM)).
>>
>> So far, everything I've found is prohibitively expensive. So, really
>> what I'm asking for is all three: Fast, Cheap and Good. I know this
>> is likely unreasonable. I *am* willing to pay more for this, but not
>> the few hundred dollars I am often quoted. I'm envisioning $150 or so,
>> but I could live with $179 or so, for around 200 sq inches of boards,
>> delivered. But am open to suggestions.
>>
>> Ideas?
>
> You know, we just started using this new PCB proto place, but I can't for
> the life of me find the URL. I will ask another engineer tomorrow.
>
> We ordered two small boards from them: double sided, soldermask,
> silkscreen.
> The cost was around $90, and they were delivered in three days (using 2nd
> day shipping).
Oh, and allegedly they have the most user-friendly/interactive website
(according to a colleague).
Olin Lathrop
> http://www.sunstone.com
>
> Oh, and allegedly they have the most user-friendly/interactive website
> (according to a colleague).
I just took a look and the price is quite high. As a example I had it quote
on a 5x4 inch board with 200 holes, solder mask both sides, silkscreen on
top only, electrically tested. A single board is $350 for 3 day turn. 5
boards (100 square inches) is $429 for 3 day turn.
I haven't looked at the details, but if you sent them files on Monday, they
probably count Tue Wed Thu as the three days. It would probably be shipped
on Friday, so you'd get it Monday or Tuesday. In other words, this is
probably 1 week from sending files to receiving boards. That's only a days
longer than Gold Phoenix for a lot more money.
********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
Vitaliy
>> http://www.sunstone.com
>>
>> Oh, and allegedly they have the most user-friendly/interactive website
>> (according to a colleague).
>
> I just took a look and the price is quite high. As a example I had it
> quote
> on a 5x4 inch board with 200 holes, solder mask both sides, silkscreen on
> top only, electrically tested. A single board is $350 for 3 day turn. 5
> boards (100 square inches) is $429 for 3 day turn.
>
> I haven't looked at the details, but if you sent them files on Monday,
> they
> probably count Tue Wed Thu as the three days. It would probably be
> shipped
> on Friday, so you'd get it Monday or Tuesday. In other words, this is
> probably 1 week from sending files to receiving boards. That's only a
> days
> longer than Gold Phoenix for a lot more money.
Olin, I don't know what the deal is, we got two boards roughly 1x3", order
placed on Monday, we got them same week for $90.
Vitaliy
Vitaliy
>> We ordered two small boards from them: double sided, soldermask,
>> silkscreen. The cost was around $90, and they were delivered in three
>> days (using 2nd day shipping).
>
> Sounds very good if the boards were tested. However, I bet is wasn't 200
> square inches as the OP wants.
Tested? When we order boards from AC, the boards aren't tested (and
unfortunately we sometimes get boards that are defective). Luckily, any
problems are usually easy to fix on a 2-layer PCB.
Vitaliy
solarwind
>> So, really
>> what I'm asking for is all three: Fast, Cheap and Good.
>
> It doesn't work that way. You get to pick only two.
LOL! Nice one!
Joseph Bento
On Mar 11, 2009, at 5:10 PM, solarwind wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Olin Lathrop <olin_p...@embedinc.com
> > wrote:
>>> So, really
>>> what I'm asking for is all three: Fast, Cheap and Good.
>>
>> It doesn't work that way. You get to pick only two.
>
> LOL! Nice one!
Can we add easy to the equation? :-)
I just tried out ExpressPCB's $51 special for three boards. I'm very
pleased! I'll admit this was for hobby use and not professional,
though for simple prototypes, their service might be equally good. No
gerbers, thereby locking you into their service, but the software is
free.
Here's an example of the board I had made. The project was a single-
VFD clock. The VFD digit alternates for the time, and the LEDs show
h10's, h1's, m10's, m1 to designate the displayed digit.
Top: http://www.kirtland.com/Projects_files/Single_VFD/Images/VFD_Top.jpg
Front: http://www.kirtland.com/Projects_files/Single_VFD/Images/VFD_Front.jpg
Well, that really isn't part of the board, but I had to show off the
cool VFD tube!
Bottom:
kirtland.com/Projects_files/Single_VFD/Images/VFD_PCB.jpg
The wire correction was a stupid mistake on my part - I got the
polarity of the coaxial power jack backward. Oh well - what else is
kynar wire for?
Joe
Vitaliy
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Olin Lathrop <olin_p...@embedinc.com>
wrote:
>> So, really
>> what I'm asking for is all three: Fast, Cheap and Good.
>
> It doesn't work that way. You get to pick only two.
LOL! Nice one!
------------
Man, you're easily amused. :)
"Do you want Fast, Cheap, or Good? Pick any two" is a well-known
engineering/project management axiom. The OP said he's looking for ways to
break the rule, and Olin told him he can't. :)
In fact, it is definitely possible to have all three -- for example, when a
new technology or a tool becomes available. Take the history of car
manufacturing, for example. But then it becomes the new benchmark, and we're
back at Square 1.
Vitaliy
Forrest W Christian
> We routinely do prototype PCBs, and the normal 1 1/2 to 2 week lead time is
> usually not a problem.
doesn't apply....
When I'm in rapid turnaround, R&D mode (which is rarely), I just get
some prototype "bare" boards, with a day or two turn from somewhere for
cheap. That isn't a problem. And when I need full spec boards, the
1-2 weeks usually isn't a problem.
But occasionally I need the full spec boards and 1-2 weeks *is* a
problem. And I really hate paying $40/board for something I can wait 2
weeks for and get for $1. I was hoping that someone would point me
toward the middle ground ... there are some ones that people have
mentioned which are better that what I was aware of. But you would
think that some Chinese shop would have sprung up which does 24 hour
turn, and then sticks them in a fedex box for the other 2 days. (order
Mon, Ship Wed, arrive Fri). And although I do require full test on my
production boards, I would be willing to skip that for this type of
situation.
-forrest
fred jones
I know you can't keep from giving the Chinese your money in this day and age. But I try to do it as little as possible...only when it can't be avoided.
FJ
> But you would
> think that some Chinese shop would have sprung up which does 24 hour
> turn, and then sticks them in a fedex box for the other 2 days. (order
> Mon, Ship Wed, arrive Fri). And although I do require full test on my
> production boards, I would be willing to skip that for this type of
> situation.
>
> -forrest
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™: Life without walls.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_032009
Olin Lathrop
> Olin, I don't know what the deal is, we got two boards roughly 1x3",
> order placed on Monday, we got them same week for $90.
That's rather different than their web site leads you to believe. Maybe
there was a "special" somewhere I didn't see. I followed the link to
prototype runs if I remember right.
Was that tested for the $90? Untested boards are pretty much useless. The
web page I saw showed electrical testing as a separate option, so I suspect
the $90 didn't include it. If so, this is the same price as Gold Phoenix
for a lot less board and a little faster. From Gold Phoenix you would have
gotten 33 boards tested and delivered to you for $109 about 1 1/2 to 2 weeks
later. Untested would be $89 delivered, but that is a meaningless figure.
********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
Olin Lathrop
> Tested? When we order boards from AC, the boards aren't tested (and
> unfortunately we sometimes get boards that are defective). Luckily,
> any problems are usually easy to fix on a 2-layer PCB.
Unless you are doing a large production run and have the ability to test the
boards yourself, you always want to have your boards electrically tested.
Just having to diagnose a problem, regardless of how easy it is to fix, will
cost more than have the PC board vendor make sure the boards are correct.
Especially for prototypes when your circuit is suspect, you want to have one
less thing that could be at fault. It just doesn't make sense for you to
test boards by putting parts on them and then seeing if the circuit works.
********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
Tony Vandiver
fast, good, cheap, local - pick two. Don't know about the best deal (I
also use sunstone/pcbexpress a lot for quickturn), but when I was in
this predicament during Chinese New Year, I found what I thought was a
good candidate in www.superpcb.com. Looked like they were a US company
fronting Chinese mfg, but pricing was good on fullup boards and
turnaround was in the neighborhood of a week.
Thanks,
Tony
fred jones wrote:
> I know you can't keep from giving the Chinese your money in this day and age. But I try to do it as little as possible...only when it can't be avoided.
>
> FJ
>
Chris Smolinski
of very simple (double sided, thru-hole parts only, about 2 x 4
inches) boards made. I've used Advanced Circuits "bare bones" service
for this type of board before, and had acceptable results. Their
current pricing isn't too bad, but from memory they rape you on
shipping. Anyone know of an even less expensive service? (Yes, i'm
chea^H^H^H^H frugal) I don't need fast.
--
---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com
Mark Rages
<csmol...@blackcatsystems.com> wrote:
> Speaking of cheap and good, I need to have a small batch (25 or so)
> of very simple (double sided, thru-hole parts only, about 2 x 4
> inches) boards made. I've used Advanced Circuits "bare bones" service
> for this type of board before, and had acceptable results. Their
> current pricing isn't too bad, but from memory they rape you on
> shipping. Anyone know of an even less expensive service? (Yes, i'm
> chea^H^H^H^H frugal) I don't need fast.
>
custompcb.com. Have them panelize it for you, you can get lots of 2x4
boards out of a panel. Malaysia.
(regarding Sunstone: I priced a board with them, and it was over
twice the Advanced Circuits cost!)
Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
Mark Rages, Engineer
Midwest Telecine LLC
mark...@midwesttelecine.com
Forrest W Christian
up with around 25 boards, full spec, delivered to your doorstop, in
about 2 weeks.
Chris Smolinski wrote:
> Speaking of cheap and good, I need to have a small batch (25 or so)
> of very simple (double sided, thru-hole parts only, about 2 x 4
> inches) boards made. I've used Advanced Circuits "bare bones" service
> for this type of board before, and had acceptable results. Their
> current pricing isn't too bad, but from memory they rape you on
> shipping. Anyone know of an even less expensive service? (Yes, i'm
> chea^H^H^H^H frugal) I don't need fast.
>
>
--
Forrest W Christian
>
> Just having to diagnose a problem, regardless of how easy it is to fix, will
> cost more than have the PC board vendor make sure the boards are correct.
> Especially for prototypes when your circuit is suspect, you want to have one
> less thing that could be at fault. It just doesn't make sense for you to
> test boards by putting parts on them and then seeing if the circuit works.
But, right now I'm still pretty much 100% through hole, double sided,
and very conservative with the vias. Plus, my clearances and trace
widths are almost always well over what the board manufacturer can make
in the process they run the boards through.
Plus, if you can't quickly diagnose a unconnected board, you must not
have very good troubleshooting skills. Or at least didn't spend a lot
of time dealing with digital circuits back when *everything* was
socketed, and the sockets were crap, and so the most common problem was
an unconnected. When I'm having a problem I always test all the pins
on the net to determine if they are connected, and seeing the same
(correct) voltages or signals.
-forrest
Bob Blick
<forr...@imach.com> said:
> pcbgeek.com. $90 for 200sq inches. For a 8 sq in board you will end
> up with around 25 boards, full spec, delivered to your doorstop, in
> about 2 weeks.
Interesting that they offer PCB + paste stencil + SMT/TH assembly for
$287. I guess you have to ship the parts to them first? And is that for
200sqin of boards?
Great web site design :)
Cheerful regards,
Bob
--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software
or over the web
Vitaliy
>> Olin, I don't know what the deal is, we got two boards roughly 1x3",
>> order placed on Monday, we got them same week for $90.
>
> That's rather different than their web site leads you to believe. Maybe
> there was a "special" somewhere I didn't see. I followed the link to
> prototype runs if I remember right.
Yes, we used a coupon. Last night I watched a guy place another order with
them for slightly larger boards, with more route points, the total was $120.
> Was that tested for the $90? Untested boards are pretty much useless.
We never had our proto PCBs tested, because we find that the few problems
that occur, are super easy to troubleshoot and fix.
> If so, this is the same price as Gold Phoenix
> for a lot less board and a little faster. From Gold Phoenix you would
> have
> gotten 33 boards tested and delivered to you for $109 about 1 1/2 to 2
> weeks
> later. Untested would be $89 delivered, but that is a meaningless figure.
We got the boards within days (speed was important, we want to test the
protos & launch the product ASAP).
Vitaliy
Vitaliy
> Olin Lathrop wrote:
>>
>> Just having to diagnose a problem, regardless of how easy it is to fix,
>> will
>> cost more than have the PC board vendor make sure the boards are correct.
>> Especially for prototypes when your circuit is suspect, you want to have
>> one
>> less thing that could be at fault. It just doesn't make sense for you to
>> test boards by putting parts on them and then seeing if the circuit
>> works.
In fact, that's exactly what we have been successfully doing for almost 7
years now.
> If my boards were more complex, I would probably agree with you 100%.
> But, right now I'm still pretty much 100% through hole, double sided,
> and very conservative with the vias. Plus, my clearances and trace
> widths are almost always well over what the board manufacturer can make
> in the process they run the boards through.
Our designs are usually mixed PTH/SMT, with lots of vias, and we keep
cramming more and more parts onto shrinking PCBs, so the parts keep getting
smaller. It still costs less to troubleshoot an occasional defective PCB
than to pay for testing every time (we order protos on average every two
weeks).
> Plus, if you can't quickly diagnose a unconnected board, you must not
> have very good troubleshooting skills.
This was my sentiment, too. We have a nice wide angle stereo microscope, and
normally you know which part of the circuit the problem is in, so you
inspect that region, fix the trace/short, and you're done. I don't know why
Olin is making such a big deal out of testing. Calling untested PCBs
"useless" is a serious exaggeration.
Vitaliy
Isaac Marino Bavaresco
I always request electrical test for boards with 4 layers and up.
For boards up to two layers I agree that it is wasting money. I never
got a bad single or two layer board from the manufacturers.
Regards,
Isaac
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Vitaliy
> I always request electrical test for boards with 4 layers and up.
When we move beyond 2-layer PCBs, we will definitely start paying for
electrical tests.
>For boards up to two layers I agree that it is wasting money. I never
got a bad single or two layer board from the manufacturers.
We had our share of defective PCBs, however like I said the effort required
to troubleshoot and fix the problems was minimal.
Vitaliy
Olin Lathrop
> I always request electrical test for boards with 4 layers and up.
>
> got a bad single or two layer board from the manufacturers.
Then you've been lucky. I've had bad vias that looked good visually,
hairline breaks in traces, and once even a errant finger of copper shorting
two unrelated traces. Life is too short to waste time on that stuff. $20
is worth not having the aggrevation, let alone the cost of diagnosing the
problem, fixing the board, and possibly replacing components that got
damaged in the process.
********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
Bob Ammerman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Olin Lathrop" <olin_p...@embedinc.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <pic...@mit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [EE] Fast, Cheap, and Good PCB manufacturer
> Isaac Marino Bavaresco wrote:
>> I always request electrical test for boards with 4 layers and up.
>>
>> For boards up to two layers I agree that it is wasting money. I never
>> got a bad single or two layer board from the manufacturers.
>
> Then you've been lucky. I've had bad vias that looked good visually,
> hairline breaks in traces, and once even a errant finger of copper
> shorting
> two unrelated traces. Life is too short to waste time on that stuff. $20
> is worth not having the aggrevation, let alone the cost of diagnosing the
> problem, fixing the board, and possibly replacing components that got
> damaged in the process.
I would say he is very lucky. I've only ordered boards a few times myself
and had a shorted trace (a big blob of extra copper) on a relatively simple
2 layer board. I hadn't specified testing, but luckily caught it with a
careful visual inspection before loading the board.
-- Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
William "Chops" Westfield
On Mar 11, 2009, at 6:20 PM, Joseph Bento wrote:
> I just tried out ExpressPCB's $51 special for three boards.
> Maybe there was a "special" somewhere I didn't see.
I'm pretty sick of having to wade through a crop of "special offers"
to figure out whether a board shop is appropriate to my needs or not.
By the time you figure out all the missing pieces (extra $$), weird
rules (hole sizes, multiple designs, etc) Bah!
The batchpcb system of $x/in^2 + $y setup is much more palatable as
a system (though prices are frequently quite high this way.)
BillW
cdb
a Croation company/person advertising PCB manufacture. Looks like
someone setting up a home enterprise.
Might be good for hobby and one off users.
States : 2 day turnaround and charges US$29.99 + $0.40/sq" for DS
board. No mask or plating.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/PCB-Copper-Board-Clad-Design-FR4-Etching-Servic
e_W0QQitemZ220372340015QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equip
ment?hash=item220372340015&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%
3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
Colin
--
cdb, co...@btech-online.co.uk on 13/03/2009
Web presence: www.btech-online.co.uk
Hosted by: www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=7988359
Isaac Marino Bavaresco
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Olin Lathrop" <olin_p...@embedinc.com>
> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <pic...@mit.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [EE] Fast, Cheap, and Good PCB manufacturer
>
>
>
>> Isaac Marino Bavaresco wrote:
>>
>>> I always request electrical test for boards with 4 layers and up.
>>>
>>> For boards up to two layers I agree that it is wasting money. I never
>>> got a bad single or two layer board from the manufacturers.
>>>
>> Then you've been lucky. I've had bad vias that looked good visually,
>> hairline breaks in traces, and once even a errant finger of copper
>> shorting
>> two unrelated traces. Life is too short to waste time on that stuff. $20
>> is worth not having the aggrevation, let alone the cost of diagnosing the
>> problem, fixing the board, and possibly replacing components that got
>> damaged in the process.
>>
>
> I would say he is very lucky. I've only ordered boards a few times myself
> and had a shorted trace (a big blob of extra copper) on a relatively simple
> 2 layer board. I hadn't specified testing, but luckily caught it with a
> careful visual inspection before loading the board.
>
> -- Bob Ammerman
> RAm Systems
>
Perhaps I am lucky, but really never got a defective board from the
manufacturers.
We usually order lots of 100 boards each time and most models are
re-ordered regularly to replenish stock.
Sometimes we receive panels with one or more boards marked as not
approved in visual inspection (they stick a paper sticker on them before
they print the solder resist, making the boards useless), but they don't
charge us for those boards.
On the outside of the package they put a green label saying: "Not
electrically tested by customer request."
Once I inspected the non-approved boards and found tiny porosity in a
copper area, but electrically it was OK. If would we assemble the
boards, I'm sure they would work (although with a ugly soldermask-less
spot where the sticker needed to be removed.
Regards,
Isaac
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