Wintertime piano protection in a summer house

[paul bruesch]

A client and friend is buying a Kawai grand (presumably in the 6-7' range) for a summer house. In the winter, the house will be closed up and heated to only about 50°. Short of moving it to his already-cramped fall-to-spring home, are there any suggestions as to protecting it? Is it even necessary to do anything special, aside from keeping mice/etc. away from it? Piano will be in frigid Minnesota/northern Wisconsin.

Thank you

Paul Bruesch

--
Sent from Gmail Mobile on my iPad mini

[Joseph Garrett]

Paul,

Does he have another piano in his "fall to spring cluttered house"? If not, I'd tell him to clean up the mess and buy a bit smaller piano that will work in both locations and just move the damned thing and be done with it. The possible damage to an unattended piano in a "summer place" is major as you no doubt can imagine. I've had a few customers like that over the years. They ALWAYS whine and bitch about the high cost of repairing the inevitable damage in that sort of situation. AND, they are ADAMANT about keeping the piano in that environment! Most, I've washed my hands of. Just my experience on it.<G> Also, it's part of that stupid piano owners idea that a piano is bulletproof and lasts forever! Sheesh!

Best,

Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Regi Hedahl]

Paul,

Pianos are made to be played.  The client should move the piano between homes.  I move pianos for customers and some of them are for quite long distance.  I also let them fill up my piano moving trailer and Suburban full of stuff to help justify the cost.

If the client is adamant on keeping the piano at the summer house, he should maintain the humidity in that house to a constant level with a home humidifier / dehumidifier.  The huge humidity swings in Minnesota will turn that piano into kindling in short order.  He should also make sure that the Kawai grand he purchases has the Millennium action.  These actions seem to fare better with humidity swings.  That said, I tune for a school district with a bunch of these Kawai grand pianos.  During the school year, humidity is very high (75% or more) and during the summer break, they shut off the HVAC and temperatures rise to over 95 degrees.  The pianos are only about 4 years old but every time I come to tune the pianos, I see a rather large degradation.  They now all have rusty strings and lots of false beats.  When these pianos were new, false beats were nearly nonexistent.  So far, I haven't seen cracked soundboards but that's probably because humidity around here is always high.

Regi Hedahl

piano...@gmail.com

[Joseph Garrett]

AND what happens when there is a lose of electrical power, in Minnesota, in the winter?!! YIKES!

'Nuff said.

Joe

[fredsch...@gmail.com]

Paul,

In my experience, if the home is heated to a steady low temperature of around 50 degrees the piano will take the conditions just fine!  It is the addition of higher heat that really dries out the air in homes, and allowing it to stay steadily cool keeps the humidity up a little and doesn’t hurt the piano at all.

I used to care for an older 7 foot grand that lived in the finished basement of a home in central Washington state, with temperatures that ranged from 40 to 55 degrees in the room through much of the winter.  That piano stayed in tune wonderfully! I tuned it about once a year (in the relatively dry summer months) and it never needed pitch adjustments. 

If the owner can keep the humidity from running too high in the summer months, that will help tremendously.

Don Mannino
Via Windows Mail

[tnr...@aol.com]

Pianos like stability. As long as the temperature and the humidity stays about the same during the winter, and then it's gradually increased when they come back in the Spring, I don't think it will hurt the piano. At most I would recommend a full length piano cover.

 

Wim

[Joseph Garrett]

The problem is the extremely low humidity in Minnesota/Northern Wisconsin in the winter. Even IF there is not a loss of power in that period, the humidity is in the low teens OUTSIDE! Imagine what that does to the piano. If there were someone there to help offset the low humidity with an installed damppchaser or the old 'kettle on the stove', then it would not be a problem. The way I see it is the piano being unattended to for those 3-4 months. Stuff happens. Why tempt the fates with a good piano like that? If it was some clunker, then I'd say have at it.<G>

Best,

Joe

[tnr...@aol.com]

Joe

 

In the Midwest in the winter the outside humidity is almost the same as it is during the summer. (between 50% and 90%). It's when cold air is heated that it looses it's moisture content. But when a house is at 50 degrees, the humidity level stays fairly high. Maybe not at 70%, but certainly not down to 10% or 20%. But again, it's not the actual temperature or humidity that creates problems.  When a piano can stay at 50 degrees and the humidity stays fairly stable, there shouldn't be a problem.  It's when the temperature and/or humidity changes a lot over a short period of time that problems occur. 

 

Wim 

[Joseph Garrett]

Wim,

We're talking the Northern extremes of the Mid-West. Ask any of the techs that live in that area. There are definitely times where there is little or no humidity. Then you add the heating into the equation and you've got a real problem. During major storms, (which there have been more severe ones of late), there are a lot Electrical power loses. It's those times where the piano is at jeopardy! I'm not talking the state of Misery, but Wisconsin, Minnesota and such. It's bitchin' up there. Then, in the summer the damned humidity is off the charts, as in almost raining.  Spit into the air and you'll cause a rain cloud.<G>
Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: tnrwim via pianotech
Sent: Aug 5, 2014 6:42 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Wintertime piano protection in a summer house

Joe

In the Midwest in the winter the outside humidity is almost the same as it is during the summer. (between 50% and 90%). It's when cold air is heated that it looses it's moisture content. But when a house is at 50 degrees, the humidity level stays fairly high. Maybe not at 70%, but certainly not down to 10% or 20%. But again, it's not the actual temperature or humidity that creates problems. When a piano can stay at 50 degrees and the humidity stays fairly stable, there shouldn't be a problem. It's when the temperature and/or humidity changes a lot over a short period of time that problems occur.

Wim





-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Garrett
To: pianotech
Sent: Tue, Aug 5, 2014 1:47 pm
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Wintertime piano protection in a summer house



The problem is the extremely low humidity in Minnesota/Northern Wisconsin in the winter. Even IF there is not a loss of power in that period, the humidity is in the low teens OUTSIDE! Imagine what that does to the piano. If there were someone there to help offset the low humidity with an installed damppchaser or the old 'kettle on the stove', then it would not be a problem. The way I see it is the piano being unattended to for those 3-4 months. Stuff happens. Why tempt the fates with a good piano like that? If it was some clunker, then I'd say have at it.

[Mark Dierauf]

I've gotta agree with Don. Here in NH some of the best preserved old pianos I see live in under heated homes. Summer dampness is likely to be the greater concern - that and rodents!

Mark

[Douglas Gregg]

Paul,
I am with Don Mannino on this. Just look up the RELATIVE humidity for
Minnesota at this web site or others.
http://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Minnesota/humidity-january.php

It runs 60 to 80% all winter. That is about like it is on Long Island.
I have about 30 pianos in an unheated barn on the East end of Long
Island. They are remarkably stable in the winter and the temperature
gets below freezing sometimes in the barn. When I have problems is
when I deliver a piano in the winter. A few days after delivery to a
warm house, the tuning goes south because the relative humidity is
much lower inside a heated house. As long as the relative humidity
changes gradually, the pianos stay in tune pretty well. I don't see
any rust problems either. But if you are worried about rust, by all
means put a zerust capsule in the grand piano and close the lid. That
will prevent any rust.

Doug Gregg

On 8/6/14, Mark Dierauf <ma...@nhpianos.com> wrote:
> I've gotta agree with Don. Here in NH some of the best preserved old pianos
>
> I see live in under heated homes. Summer dampness is likely to be the
> greater concern - that and rodents!
>
> Mark
>
> On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 7:28:08 PM UTC-4, Fred Schwartz wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> In my experience, if the home is heated to a steady low temperature of
>> around 50 degrees the piano will take the conditions just fine! It is the
>>
>> addition of higher heat that really dries out the air in homes, and
>> allowing it to stay steadily cool keeps the humidity up a little and
>> doesn’t hurt the piano at all.
>>
>> I used to care for an older 7 foot grand that lived in the finished
>> basement of a home in central Washington state, with temperatures that
>> ranged from 40 to 55 degrees in the room through much of the winter. That
>>
>> piano stayed in tune wonderfully! I tuned it about once a year (in the
>> relatively dry summer months) and it never needed pitch adjustments.
>>
>> If the owner can keep the humidity from running too high in the summer
>> months, that will help tremendously.
>>
>> Don Mannino
>> Via Windows Mail
>>

>> *From:* paul bruesch <javascript:>
>> *Sent:* ‎Tuesday‎, ‎August‎ ‎5‎, ‎2014 ‎11‎:‎33‎ ‎AM
>> *To:* pian...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>

[Greg Newell]

I would load it up with desiccant to avoid condensation on the strings.

[Terry Farrell]

There you go Doug (and Mark and Don) - thanks!. Before I read your post, I looked up monthly Madison, WI humidity averages on the NOAA website - 67% RH last month (July), 71% last January and 66% this past February. Joe, I wish I didn't love you so much - I have all sorts of nasty thoughts when reading some of your posts - your very quick extreme reactions to what some folks post - but I do like you and respect a lot of what you have to offer. Maybe just tone it down a bit at times? Maybe a little research first? Hmmmmm, but then you wouldn't be that lovable Joe......... Hmmmmmm..... :-(

Terry Farrell

[Terry Farrell]

Yeah, well, for the first week or two anyway.......  :-(

Terry Farrell

[a4...@aol.com]

Greetings,
I don't know what the relative humidity in the winter will be, but I
doubt that it will be lower than Canada. Bill Garlick was, at one
time, the manager of luxury hotel there. They closed in the winter,
drained the pipes, cut the heat, locked the doors and came back in May.
( This may have been the Fairmont at Lake Louise. ) There was a
Steinway upright in the lobby that he tuned, and said that the piano
was well wrapped so that the spring warm-up was spread over a week. He
stated that the piano was amazingly in tune each spring, needing some
unisons touched up, but the piano seemed to suffer no damage from the
extremes over the years. This isn't the same as letting the temp drop
along with the humidity, but our Canadian techs probably have more
experience with this sort of treatment than I do and I would be
interested if Bill's recollection could be corroborated.
I know what heavy heating in the winter will do to pianos, as I
have seen older clients reach late age during my tuning for them over
the last 36 years, frailer every year, running more heat every year,
and the piano's joints gradually cracking along with the owner's.
Ed Foote RPT

[David Skolnik]

Hey Terry -
Great site, but I think there must be some sort of disconnect between the data and what real people experience.  At some point, once I've solved the mysteries of action pinning, I'll attempt to understand what those numbers actually reflect, or don't.  
David S

>>> doesn’t hurt the piano at all.

>>>
>>> I used to care for an older 7 foot grand that lived in the finished
>>> basement of a home in central Washington state, with temperatures that
>>> ranged from 40 to 55 degrees in the room through much of the winter.  That
>>>
>>> piano stayed in tune wonderfully! I tuned it about once a year (in the
>>> relatively dry summer months) and it never needed pitch adjustments.
>>>
>>> If the owner can keep the humidity from running too high in the summer
>>> months, that will help tremendously.
>>>
>>> Don Mannino
>>> Via Windows Mail
>>>
>>> *From:* paul bruesch <javascript:>

>>> *Sent:* ‎Tuesday‎, ‎August‎ ‎5‎, ‎2014 ‎11‎:‎33‎ ‎AM

>>> *To:* pian...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
>>>
>>> A client and friend is buying a Kawai grand (presumably in the 6-7' range)
>>>
>>> for a summer house. In the winter, the house will be closed up and heated
>>>

>>> to only about 50°. Short of moving it to his already-cramped

>>> fall-to-spring
>>> home, are there any suggestions as to protecting it? Is it even necessary
>>>
>>> to do anything special, aside from keeping mice/etc. away from it? Piano
>>> will be in frigid Minnesota/northern Wisconsin.
>>>
>>> Thank you
>>> Paul Bruesch
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile on my iPad mini
>>>
>>

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[Joseph Garrett]

Hmmm? Indeed.<G> It does seem that my idea of what those gawdawful winters in Northern Midwest are like, seem to be misguided. The "stats" prove me wrong. All I'll add is Don't cry and blubber when the $40K piano turns into a POS in two or three years.
Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

-----Original Message-----
>From: Terry Farrell <farrellpi...@gmail.com>
>Sent: Aug 6, 2014 8:06 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Wintertime piano protection in a summer house
>

>>>> doesn’t hurt the piano at all.

>>>>
>>>> I used to care for an older 7 foot grand that lived in the finished
>>>> basement of a home in central Washington state, with temperatures that
>>>> ranged from 40 to 55 degrees in the room through much of the winter. That
>>>>
>>>> piano stayed in tune wonderfully! I tuned it about once a year (in the
>>>> relatively dry summer months) and it never needed pitch adjustments.
>>>>
>>>> If the owner can keep the humidity from running too high in the summer
>>>> months, that will help tremendously.
>>>>
>>>> Don Mannino
>>>> Via Windows Mail
>>>>
>>>> *From:* paul bruesch <javascript:>

>>>> *Sent:* ‎Tuesday‎, ‎August‎ ‎5‎, ‎2014 ‎11‎:‎33‎ ‎AM

>>>> *To:* pian...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
>>>>
>>>> A client and friend is buying a Kawai grand (presumably in the 6-7' range)
>>>>
>>>> for a summer house. In the winter, the house will be closed up and heated
>>>>

>>>> to only about 50°. Short of moving it to his already-cramped

[Rob McCall]

Am I the only one that sees the problem with this line of thinking?

Relative humidity is a poor measure of moisture content if we are comparing numbers over a wide swing of temperatures. RH is only relevant at the same temperature.

Relative humidity is simply the ratio of water vapor content to water vapor capacity of the air. The water vapor capacity is strictly a function of temperature.

For example, at 14F, a kilogram of air can only hold 1.8g of water vapor. At 68F, that same kilogram of air can now hold 15g of water. That's over 8 times as much moisture in the same amount of air.

So, while a cold winter RH may seem high in the northern midwest, the amount of actual moisture in the air is minuscule and it will more than likely eat the piano alive, so to speak. :-)

So you're both right. Yes, the RH humidity is high in the winter in the northern climes, and it will turn the $40K piano into a POS in 2-3 years because that higher RH doesn't equate to actual moisture content.

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Oceanside, CA
951-698-1875

[paul bruesch]

Thank you all for all the response. And no, I never expected consensus!

Rob, I think I understand what you're asking/suggesting, but given the higher iRH of a cooler home, less moisture will evaporate in the ambient air. e.g. We humans perspire approximately the same amount at 90°F whether it's 90% RH or 20%. The difference is how much of that evaporates, which determines how much moisture (completely) leaves our bodies. Just like how much moisture leaves the wood at any RH. No?

Paul

On Wednesday, August 6, 2014, Rob McCall <r...@mccallpiano.com> wrote:

Am I the only one that sees the problem with this line of thinking?

Relative humidity is a poor measure of moisture content if we are comparing numbers over a wide swing of temperatures. RH is only relevant at the same temperature.

Relative humidity is simply the ratio of water vapor content to water vapor capacity of the air. The water vapor capacity is strictly a function of temperature.

For example, at 14F, a kilogram of air can only hold 1.8g of water vapor.  At 68F, that same kilogram of air can now hold 15g of water. That's over 8 times as much moisture in the same amount of air.

So, while a cold winter RH may seem high in the northern midwest, the amount of actual moisture in the air is minuscule and it will more than likely eat the piano alive, so to speak.  :-)

So you're both right.  Yes, the RH humidity is high in the winter in the northern climes, and it will turn the $40K piano into a POS in 2-3 years because that higher RH doesn't equate to actual moisture content.

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Oceanside, CA
951-698-1875

[Rob McCall]

Paul,

This little calculator may help. Just put in the temp and the RH and hit calculate and it will show you the equilibrium moisture content (EMC).

http://www.csgnetwork.com/emctablecalc.html

The thing to keep in mind is that if you take 14F air at 66% RH, it shows 12.5 for EMC. If you have 68F air also at 66% RH, the EMC is about 12.2.  The problem is that you'd have to add over 8 times the amount of moisture to the 68F air in order to get the same RH at the higher temp. That's why the air inside a heated room in the winter seems so dry. The amount of moisture is the same but the RH is so low.

I think for our needs, the measure of EMC is probably the most important number, not RH. EMC is what the wood actually cares about, that is, if it had feelings...  ;-)

I hope that all makes sense.

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com

Oceanside, CA

951-698-1875

[fredsch...@gmail.com]

Rob, you are completely correct about water content.  But what draws the moisture out of the wood is the relative humidity, not the water by weight.  So if the piano remains at 40 degrees F and the RH remains 50%, the EMC of the soundboard will remain comfortably high as well.  If the house is heated to 72 degrees and the moisture drops to 20%, the board will start to dry out and be damaged.

Don Mannino
Via Windows Mail

[Rob McCall]

Don, 

I totally agree. The issue I have with using climatological data for indoor RH should be obvious. 66% outside when it's only 10F is all and wonderful, but the piano is inside. Even if the house is left unheated, with proper insulation, the house will still be warmer than the outside ambient temperature therefore the RH will be lower. And the wood will begin to dry out. At least this is what makes sense to me. :-)

Rob McCall 

Sent from my iPhone

[Regi Hedahl]

If the RH is 70% at 10 degrees and you warm that air to 50 degrees, the RH falls to 13.72% which is low enough to kill a soundboard. That's why I mention the whole home regulated humidifier. An empty home also won't have anyone cooking or taking a hot shower to help put moisture into the air.

Regi Hedahl

[Don]

Hi,

What is worst case is changes. Rural Churches where I live are unable to afford to heat their buildings, so the pianos go through sudden rapid changes on a more or less weekly basis. They survive. It is best if they can turn on the heat 24 hours before tuning.

The pianos in the far north that I have seen appear to handle being dried down pretty well. But then, they stay dried out forever.

I believe freezing a piano is not a great idea. Wrapping it to slow down temperature change is probably prudent.

 

Regards,
Don Rose

---

From: Rob McCall <r...@mccallpiano.com>
To: "pian...@googlegroups.com" <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 3:25:09 PM

Subject: Re: [pianotech] Wintertime piano protection in a summer house

[Joseph Garrett]

Wrapping is just dumb! The piano does not emit heat, so wrapping does nothing! At least put a damned Dampp Chaser in the stupid thing. Then wrap it. Better yet, in this particular case. Move the piano to the winter home and be done with it! Sheesh!

Joe

Uff Da!

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Don' via pianotech
Sent: Aug 7, 2014 5:31 AM
To: "pian...@googlegroups.com"
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Wintertime piano protection in a summer house

Hi,

What is worst case is changes. Rural Churches where I live are unable to afford to heat their buildings, so the pianos go through sudden rapid changes on a more or less weekly basis. They survive. It is best if they can turn on the heat 24 hours before tuning.

The pianos in the far north that I have seen appear to handle being dried down pretty well. But then, they stay dried out forever.


I believe freezing a piano is not a great idea. Wrapping it to slow down temperature change is probably prudent.

 
Regards,
Don Rose


________________________________
From: Rob McCall

To: "pian...@googlegroups.com"

Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 3:25:09 PM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Wintertime piano protection in a summer house



Don, 

I totally agree. The issue I have with using climatological data for indoor RH should be obvious. 66% outside when it's only 10F is all and wonderful, but the piano is inside. Even if the house is left unheated, with proper insulation, the house will still be warmer than the outside ambient temperature therefore the RH will be lower. And the wood will begin to dry out. At least this is what makes sense to me. :-)

Rob McCall 

Sent from my iPhone




On Aug 6, 2014, at 16:20, wrote:


Rob, you are completely correct about water content.  But what draws the moisture out of the wood is the relative humidity, not the water by weight.  So if the piano remains at 40 degrees F and the RH remains 50%, the EMC of the soundboard will remain comfortably high as well.  If the house is heated to 72 degrees and the moisture drops to 20%, the board will start to dry out and be damaged.



Don Mannino
Via Windows Mail

From: Rob McCall
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎August‎ ‎6‎, ‎2014 ‎12‎:‎36‎ ‎PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com

Am I the only one that sees the problem with this line of thinking?

Relative humidity is a poor measure of moisture content if we are comparing numbers over a wide swing of temperatures. RH is only relevant at the same temperature.

Relative humidity is simply the ratio of water vapor content to water vapor capacity of the air. The water vapor capacity is strictly a function of temperature. 

For example, at 14F, a kilogram of air can only hold 1.8g of water vapor.  At 68F, that same kilogram of air can now hold 15g of water. That's over 8 times as much moisture in the same amount of air.

So, while a cold winter RH may seem high in the northern midwest, the amount of actual moisture in the air is minuscule and it will more than likely eat the piano alive, so to speak.  :-)

So you're both right.  Yes, the RH humidity is high in the winter in the northern climes, and it will turn the $40K piano into a POS in 2-3 years because that higher RH doesn't equate to actual moisture content.

Regards,

Rob McCall

[Douglas Gregg]

Joe,
A damp chaser system will not work in an unoccupied house because the
water will run out in a few weeks and shut down. A heater stick, yes.
But I prefer to just put a zerust capsule in it and it is good two
years to prevent rust. The cold will not hurt it. I do have some
concern about plastic wrapping as it might cause more problems than
solve, particularly without a zerust capsule.

The only time I see problems with pianos in closed houses is when they
are used for a few days now and then and heat (winter), or AC (summer
house) is used and then it is closed up again.

Doug Gregg

[a4...@aol.com]

>> Joseph Garrett <joega...@earthlink.net> wrote:> Wrapping is just
dumb! The piano does not emit heat, so wrapping does> nothing! At least
put a damned Dampp Chaser in the stupid thing. Then wrap> it. Better
yet, in this particular case. Move the piano to the winter home> and be
done with it! Sheesh!>>

Greetings,
I completely disagree.
Wrapping does a lot. It prevents the piano from going through
thermal changes faster than the joints can accommodate. It reduces
stresses caused by uneven temperatures on various parts of the piano.
A cold piano exposed to suddenly heated rooms will have condensation
all over it. The wrapping slows the changes down, with enough
absorptive capacity to keep the moisture from condensing on the piano
before its temperature stabilizes.
Regards,

[John Ross]

I ran into a situation, where a 1850 Broadwood grand had been in a house by the sea, that was/is unheated in the winter.

I was very surprised to find no cracks in the sound board or bridge.

I am assuming this is because the way the piano was kept, was similar to what it would have had in England at that time.

I had tuned it about 35 years ago for the owners Father who was now deceased. 

It is going to be restrung with the Rose wire and the hammers reflected by Abel.

I passed the job off to someone, who lives closer to the piano, as the work will probably be done in that house, and would have required a lot of travel.

[John Ross]

Sorry, first time ever, I forgot to put my name on the last e-mail.

John Ross

Windsor, Nova Scotia