"hasn't been tuned in over 20 years" syndrome

[Larry Fisher RPT]

After 45 years of this I've noticed some patterns.  Pianos that haven't been tuned since bus drivers carried change sometimes don't respond all that well to being brought up to pitch  ......  AGAIN.

The victim is an Aeolian Knabe studio and it sat in a basement for 10 years prior to being brought to Portland, OR.  It had been delivered the Thursday previous to the Wednesday tuning.

I tuned it up and it seemed to respond well.  It wasn't particularly low in pitch to start with and I spent extra time passing through the upper treble (roughly c52 up to c76) numerous times to really make it sound the best I could hoping the extra passes would also instill some stability.  It's worked for me in the past  .........  or at least I think it has.

Today I'm going to tune it again after only a week  ............  or at least that's what I'm lead to believe by the conversation I had with the owner.  We'll see what she's concerned about but I got a good hunch she's probably right.

I DID manage to tell her that sometimes pianos go right back out of tune again if they've been neglected for years.  She heard that part and is willing to pay for another tuning today.

I figgered this might be a good thread to get started to hear what the rest of you have experienced out there on this subject.

Being an Aeolian product (I'll try not to use the word QUALITY in the same sentence) I'm considering tightening all the perimeter screws on the plate and any other screws I can find that might be associated with the strung back.  I'll check for sun and heat vent effects along with outside entry into the home creating drafts although, from memory, I don't think that's a concern here.  The player is a retired person of 85 years or so and there's no kids playing hard rock or heavy metal on it.

It's probably never had the strings set (pushed down against the bridge pins and hitch pins) since the day it was strung at the factory so I'll probably do that as well.

Am I missing anything or have any of you any jewels of wisdom on this subject that I've long since forgotten??

Lar

[Paul McCloud]

Larry:
It's also possible that the hearing of this person has been tweaked by old age.
Paul McCloud
San Diego

[Joseph Garrett]

Lar,

IMO, the first mistake was tuning it so soon after it was moved from "the basement"! I have, over the years set a policy of NEVER tuning a piano just moved! It has to set for at least a month, preferably 6 weeks. It takes that long for wood to reach equalibrium. The second mistake was not tightening the rim bolts, ect. Also, did you check the back posts, etc.?

Just my take on it, from my 41 years of experience.<G> (way different than yours I suspect.<G>)

Best Regards,

Joe

P.S.

I've referred a, 1912 Baby Grand Krakauer Electric Player to you. I've already tuned and done necessary repairs. Just needs your marvelous expertise in the player area. (that's that different experience thang dude.<G>) Main item is the original electrical cord. Next item is: there seems to be loose, (new), tubing and "dead end" tubing, (knotted), in certain areas. Well, I know you'll be able to figure it out. <G> Client claimed it worked, but I didn't attempt to test it because of the electrical cord and time constraints. BTW, the cord is definitely not UL approved.<G> And you'll need at least 10 feet of new cord. 

Very Best,

Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Ron Nossaman]

On 10/10/2014 9:39 AM, Larry Fisher RPT wrote:
> After 45 years of this I've noticed some patterns. Pianos that haven't
> been tuned since bus drivers carried change sometimes don't respond all
> that well to being brought up to pitch ...... AGAIN.

No, they don't. It takes time.

> The victim is an Aeolian Knabe studio and it sat in a basement for 10
> years prior to being brought to Portland, OR. It had been delivered the
> Thursday previous to the Wednesday tuning.

That should be plenty. For a piano that has been kept in tune, I like to
wait two or three weeks for it to make peace with the new location. A
neglected piano ought to be brought to pitch quickly after moving. I
want it to stabilize at pitch after the move, not where it was after ten
years of neglect. Factor in seasonal changes as the timing demands.

> I tuned it up and it seemed to respond well. It wasn't particularly low
> in pitch to start with and I spent extra time passing through the upper
> treble (roughly c52 up to c76) numerous times to really make it sound
> the best I could hoping the extra passes would also instill some
> stability. It's worked for me in the past ......... or at least I
> think it has.

It hasn't for me. I find multiple passes to be a waste of time. I get
them to pitch, and a presentable tuning, and wait for them to go out in
a couple of weeks. Time is the factor, not the number of passes. It
takes time after a pitch raise for the strings to render through the
bridges as the higher tension in the speaking lengths pull the back
scale sharper and themselves drop in pitch as it happens. It can't be
avoided, and is a function of time. This is why you can't tune a piano
unless it's already in tune. That's not a sales pitch to milk more
tunings out of a client. It's a physical fact. I've never known the
tightening of plate screws to make any detectable difference whatsoever,
and quit doing it many years ago unless they are super loose, which is
not often, and when people tell me my tunings sound better after a year
than the those of the guy they used to use after two weeks, I tend to
follow the evidence rather than the mythology.

> It's probably never had the strings set (pushed down against the bridge
> pins and hitch pins) since the day it was strung at the factory so I'll
> probably do that as well.

This will also make no detectable difference, and has always been a
handy excuse to seat strings on bridges, which techs just love to do.
Again, I haven't done this with a pitch raise for many years on any
piano. After all the pitch raising and tuning is done, and the piano is
acclimated to the venue, leveling strings and cleaning up bridge
terminations can be done, if necessary, on a grand as part of voicing.
On an Aeolian Knabe studio, really? I'd say pretty much never. I have
had to CA bridge pins on pianos like this when the owner, against all
odds, complained about false beats in the treble. Someone who can hear!
Happy to help.

> Am I missing anything or have any of you any jewels of wisdom on this
> subject that I've long since forgotten??

I've been unable to forget the jewels of wisdom about this stuff,
because they refuse to die. I just do the best I can.
Ron N

[John Rhodes]

Funny you should bring up the topic. Yesterday a tuned a vintage 46" Knabe upright (c.1936).  Two passes to bring it up 25-100 cents - and no broken strings.  I suggested the client's grandmother's piano likely hadn't been tuned in 20-30 years; client agreed.  I don't expect any complaints even if the tuning slips a bit because:

• I explained PRs of this magnitude will drift.
• Piano was in excellent condition, and had been installed in this home for 6 months.
• Client admits to being tone-deaf.
• Will be used by her 6 year old twin daughters to get started with piano lessons.
• Vintage Knabes are quality instruments.

John Rhodes

Vancouver, WA

[Geoff Sykes]

I can't help but approach these older pianos that haven't been touched by tech nor player in a generation as sounding rather unique. Performance is not the issue here. I'm talking about the sound of a piano that has been allowed to drift naturally into a state of tone that can sometimes be quite wonderful. NOT in tune, for sure. But sometimes beautiful. 

Then there is always that owner who has neglected the instrument for decades, decides it's finally time to get it tuned, and then calls you a couple of days later saying that a couple of notes have slipped. (- sigh -)

[Don]

Hi Larry,

If the piano is 100 cents flat, then a single overcompensated tuning may leave the bass flat by about 8 cents. I don't find the treble drops as much. I expect going from the basement to the main floor with central heating is what is happening.

Please don't set the strings. It only damages the bridge.

 

Regards,
Don Rose,
mailto:pian...@yahoo.com http://www.donrose.ca/
Box 37181, Regina, SK S4S 7K4
306-539-0716

---

From: Larry Fisher RPT <larry_...@pdxtuner.com>

I tuned it up and it seemed to respond well.  It wasn't particularly low in pitch to start with and I spent extra time passing through the upper treble (roughly c52 up to c76) numerous times to really make it sound the best I could hoping the extra passes would also instill some stability.  It's worked for me in the past  .........  or at least I think it has.

It's probably never had the strings set (pushed down against the bridge pins and hitch pins) since the day it was strung at the factory so I'll probably do that as well.

Lar

[David Kroenlein]

I've found that new pianos particularly are very unstable and wont really stay in long until after 5 yrs or so. Unfortunately, most people wait that long after they've gotten their "free" tuning! 

--
Sent from Gmail Mobile

[Don]

Hi David,

Very few pianos would be stable after a 100 cent pitch correction. That is why my report/bill says "pitch correction" rather than "tuning". I do also attempt to book the next service before I leave.

 

Regards,
Don Rose

mailto:pian...@yahoo.com http://www.donrose.ca/
Box 37181, Regina, SK S4S 7K4
306-539-0716

---

From: David Kroenlein <kro...@gmail.com>
To: "pian...@googlegroups.com" <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2014 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] "hasn't been tuned in over 20 years" syndrome

[Terry Farrell]

What is an "overcompensated tuning"?

Terry Farrell

[Don]

Hi Terry,

See the Reyburn Cyber Tuner and similar devices. RCT possibly does the best job as it measures each note and calculates an over pull. The man behind the tuning lever can decide what the limits of that "correction" will be.

If the previous tuner did a good job of tuning, then the calculated over pull is sometimes very nearly at the target pitch. For me, that target is 999 times out of 100 A440 on a first visit.

 

Regards,
Don Rose

mailto:pian...@yahoo.com http://www.donrose.ca/
Box 37181, Regina, SK S4S 7K4
306-539-0716

---

From: Terry Farrell <farrellpi...@gmail.com>
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2014 2:27 PM

Subject: Re: [pianotech] "hasn't been tuned in over 20 years" syndrome

[Terry Farrell]

See the Reyburn Cyber Tuner and similar devices.

I am familiar with these devices. I use Verituner. But that still doesn't address what an "overcompensated tuning" is.

RCT possibly does the best job as it measures each note and calculates an over pull.

Measures what about each note? Don't the other "machines" do the same thing regarding overpull?

The man behind the tuning lever can decide what the limits of that "correction" will be.

Or woman.

If the previous tuner did a good job of tuning, then the calculated over pull is sometimes very nearly at the target pitch.

Really? Do you really think that a piano that got a "good tuning" 30 years ago and is now 60 cents flat is going to be all that much more consistently 60 cents flat than a piano that got a mediocre or poor tuning 30 years ago? I presume that is what you are getting at.

I sure hope you don't tune a piano some day in the future that I last tuned 30 years ago and conclude that because the bass is 20 cents flat, the tenor is 50 cents flat and the treble is 70 cents flat that I obviously did a very poor job tuning the piano all those long ago 30 years ago!

For me, that target is 999 times out of 100 A440 on a first visit.

I'm still trying to do this math.......  :-(

Terry Farrell

 Regards,

Don Rose

[Don]

Hi Terry,

In September I got to follow a tuner who had left A4 65 cents sharp. The bass section was flat. This was after one year. The sharpest note was 165 cents above pitch. The tuner has a large following.

Yes, a good solid tuning will go out of tune after 30 years, but note to note in the temperament octave, for example, the amount of out of tune will be similar. However if b3 was 25 cents sharp 30 years ago--it may still be sharp now. I've observed pianos where c4 was 10 cents flat with b3 15 cents sharp. Quality tuning it is not.

By overcompensated tuning I mean what the "machine" calculates. Dean managed to get a patent on using "look up" tables for over pull. That means other machines however good they may be, can not use that sort of table. For example A4 at 30 cents flat may need xx% of over pull but A5 will need more % of over pull even it it is the same 30 cents flat (of course, that would be rare--I'd expect A5 to be flatter than A4 on most pianos).

If I followed you after 30 years I would expect to see the note to note pitch deviation from A440 to be similar on G#4 and A#4. If I saw A4 at -30, G#3 at +20 and A#4 at -5, I would conclude that the service person was less than careful.

On a first visit I attempt to tune the instrument as close to A440 as I can. I make recommendations on how to stabilize humidity and suggest moving the piano away from being in the Sun and etc. If they take my advice then the next visit I'll again tune to A440. If they don't wish to be educated about caring for their piano I don't see why I should be burdened to tune to A440 for them. Remember I live where humidity goes from 4% to 84% on a yearly basis.

 

Regards,
Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat

mailto:pian...@yahoo.com http://www.donrose.ca/
Box 37181, Regina, SK S4S 7K4
306-539-0716

From: Terry Farrell <farrellpi...@gmail.com>
To: pian...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, October 10, 2014 3:00 PM

Subject: Re: [pianotech] "hasn't been tuned in over 20 years" syndrome

[Regi Hedahl]

Larry,
Communication is the key here. I explain to the customer that their piano has missed many years of yearly tunings so it's going to need a few more follow up tunings to get it stable once again. I then tell them that I highly recommend that the piano be tuned again in 3 months. Most customers seem to understand and this let's me off the hook when the tuning doesn't hold. Of the pianos that I come back to tune in 3 months, most seem to drift down in pitch some and some pianos are much worse than others. The pianos that seem to drift the most are the ones that were never tuned or tuned once since purchased many years ago.

For your particular customer, I would return free of charge and try to make them happy. Just returning and addressing their concern could go a long ways. Correct a few unisons or at least pretend to fix them if they are not out and they will think it's a lot better. As you leave, make sure to leave some cards with them since they will probably tell everyone how wonderful of a piano tuner you are.

That said, I much rather that a customer call me to fix the problem than live with it or complain to others about me.

Regi Hedahl
Goliad, TX

[Larry Fisher RPT]

Well guys, as it turns out, it wasn't tuning at all that she had concerns about. A classic example of how people call a cotton swab a Q-tip or a facial tissue a Kleenex, she called anything the piano needed, a tuning.

She was a piano teacher at one time in her life and didn't know about things like regulation, voicing, or any other adjustments that could be made on a piano besides TUNING.  She mentioned that she was having troubles with repetition on some notes and then pressed B flat 38 indicating her displeasure with it's sound.  I "skinned" the offending hammer to expose "fresh" felt and needled the impacted area minimally (barely penetrating the surface) so that the sound matched the surrounding hammers.  As I adjusted the capstans eliminating lost motion, we visited about things that can be done to a piano other than tuning.  After completing the middle section I had her play just that part of the piano to show her the difference.  She liked it.  "It feels good" was her response.  As I finished the rest of the keyboard we talked about living the life of an Air Force wife moving from place to place every few years and how she used to have an A B Chase upright that her husband hated to move.  I noticed that she must have had a strong right hand since the capstans were further out of adjustment as I worked my way up the scale.  Additionally, the string cuts were deeper up there.  She played the piano when I was through and was thoroughly pleased with the feel of the keys.  I then covered voicing a bit with her and showed her how the bass was a lot nicer sounding than the heavily impacted treble.  We visited about reshaping the hammers some day.  As we parted company at her front door with her check in my wallet, I suggested she and her boyfriend/neighbor standing next to her play duets together.  She smiled pleasantly as I then proceeded to the Mt. Hood National Forest and hiked my brains out on a very nice and pleasant day.

In summation, it was a Kimball studio, not an Aeolian Knabe.  The tuning was at a point to be expected after only a week.  Overall it sounded good however some of the unisons had slipped but ever so little.  The water heated exploded a while back and the entire basement filled with about a foot of water ruining the furnace.  She's repaired all the damage and is currently waiting for the gas company to run a line to her house and install a new furnace.  She's currently heating her place with a space heater and a fireplace.  I learned all this as I pointed out the heat vent next to the piano and it's possible effects on the piano.  The sun's effects were not an issue.  We covered all that.

As for using an ETD, I don't, never have and probably never will.  We'll save that one for another thread.

As for seating strings, we'll save that for another thread.  I use a hammer shank and a vacant combination handle very gently and very seldom.

As for numerous passes being a waste of time  ...........  we'll save that for another thread.  We all have our methods.  I like what the piano sounds like when I'm done and some people think walking in the woods is ineffective.  After all, it gave me sore muscles (after a 6 mile hike turned into a 8 or 9 mile hike) and sore feet.  That's a good enough excuse to go find a couple of nice cold glasses of Terminator Stout and waste some more time.

BTW, the Chanterelles made a minimal showing a few weeks ago and were now all dried up.  I'm hoping for a bumper crop this year ........  but we'll save that for another thread  .......  on another forum.

Lar

 

[Regi Hedahl]

Glad for the positive outcome. Another thing I do is try to get the customer to try it out and if not, I'll play something. This gives the customer a chance to assess the piano before I leave. Quite a few times, I catch things that went unnoticed during the tuning and the piano gets opened up again.

Regi Hedahl
Goliad, TX

[David Boyce]

It's worrying, but sadly not surprising, that a person with so little
interest in the instrument would make a living out of teaching it.
There are all too many like that, I fear.

By contrast, my friends' daughter is a piano teacher, and while she is
by no means an expert in technical matters, her first lesson with a new
pupil involves taking off the front panel and letting them see, and
explaining, what happens when they press a key.

Best regards,

David.

[David Boyce]

I am increasingly inclined now, on hearing that the piano hasn't been
tuned for 20 years, to say "Right, well, at the needed two tunings per
year, that's forty tunings we have to catch up on".

Best regards,

David.