New Hammers for Steinway B.............Opinions Please!

[Piano...@aol.com]

Dear Colleagues:

 

In about a month, I will be receiving a Steinway B, 1972, #429519.  The hammers need to be replaced and I would like to solicit opinions as to what might be the best hammer to install.  The ultimate destination of the piano will be in a typical, 2-car garage converted into a music studio.  The client informed me the piano will be chiefly utilized for composing and recording.  Said studio will be ready to receive the instrument some time in October.  In the interim, the client will install double-glazed windows and insulation in the walls to stabilize the environment.  Furthermore, a Dampp-Chaser system will be installed in the Steinway.  Consequently, may I please get input and opinions as to which hammer you folks would consider best:  Abel, Ronson, Renner, etc.

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

A. G. Bajada

PTG Associate

[Joseph Garrett]

Hmmm? A 1972?!!! First consideration?...New wippens, Shank & Flanges to get rid of the *(&^&% Teflon! Then, either a new Key Set or Remove exiisting key buttons, (Pratt Read crap), with  4"-5" hardwood key buttons, (obtained from Rick Wheeler)!! After all that, I'd opt for Ronsen Wurzen or Weickert Hammers. Since it is in a small studio, very little voicing would be needed and it won't blow you out the door. I suspect that the inner walls of the Recording studio will need either free standing secondary walls and/or mucho sound baffling to offset the power of the piano in that confined space. Of course, all of that is predicated on the Client's preferences.<G>

Best,

Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Euphonious Thumpe]

Client mought (might/ought) consider a mini-climate control system for that one room (temp/humidity) too. Thumpe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

---

From: PianoTek4u via pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>;

To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: [pianotech] New Hammers for Steinway B.............Opinions Please!

Sent: Wed, Jun 11, 2014 3:23:25 PM

[tnr...@aol.com]

A.G.

 

I would recommend you use Steinway hammers. With the piano as old as it is, and, as Joe said, probably has Teflon bushings, I would also recommend new shanks and flanges. The cost is not that much more, and, for just a few dollars more, you can order them already hung. You will need to spend some time to travel and burn the hammers, and of course, voice the hammers, but the time you spend doing that is far less, and the end result much better, than doing all that work yourself. Over all I think you will be happy with the results.

 

Wim

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PianoTek4u via pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 11, 2014 5:23 am
Subject: [pianotech] New Hammers for Steinway B.............Opinions Please!

[a4...@aol.com]

I would install Weickert hammers on WNG shanks. You will have some
geometry problems in this action, more than likely. The whippens may
or may not be worth keeping.

Ed Foote RPT

-----Original Message-----
From: PianoTek4u via pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 11, 2014 10:23 am
Subject: [pianotech] New Hammers for Steinway B.............Opinions
Please!

[Joseph Garrett]

Wim,

I categorically disagree! The hammers of today are nothing like those that were originally on the piano. The strike point & bore distance was all over the map in the 70's. If the action has Teflon, it ALL should be removed, lest it click/clack and seize up forever!

Don't get me wrong, I do like the N.Y. Improved parts. Just not their b.b. hard lacquered q-tips they call hammers!

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: tnrwim via pianotech
Sent: Jun 11, 2014 6:04 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] New Hammers for Steinway B.............Opinions Please!


A.G.

I would recommend you use Steinway hammers. With the piano as old as it is, and, as Joe said, probably has Teflon bushings, I would also recommend new shanks and flanges. The cost is not that much more, and, for just a few dollars more, you can order them already hung. You will need to spend some time to travel and burn the hammers, and of course, voice the hammers, but the time you spend doing that is far less, and the end result much better, than doing all that work yourself. Over all I think you will be happy with the results.

Wim

-----Original Message-----
From: PianoTek4u via pianotech
To: pianotech
Sent: Wed, Jun 11, 2014 5:23 am
Subject: [pianotech] New Hammers for Steinway B.............Opinions Please!



Dear Colleagues:

In about a month, I will be receiving a Steinway B, 1972, #429519. The hammers need to be replaced and I would like to solicit opinions as to what might be the best hammer to install. The ultimate destination of the piano will be in a typical, 2-car garage converted into a music studio. The client informed me the piano will be chiefly utilized for composing and recording. Said studio will be ready to receive the instrument some time in October. In the interim, the client will install double-glazed windows and insulation in the walls to stabilize the environment. Furthermore, a Dampp-Chaser system will be installed in the Steinway. Consequently, may I please get input and opinions as to which hammer you folks would consider best: Abel, Ronson, Renner, etc.

Many thanks in advance,

A. G. Bajada
PTG Associate

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Douglas Gregg]

I will put in a vote for the Weikert hammers from Ronsen. I have put
in two sets and they are great. quite soft and that would be good for
a two car garage.

Doug gregg

[Keith McGavern]

On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 1:04:53 PM UTC-5, tnr...@aol.com wrote:

A.G.

 

I would recommend you use Steinway hammers. …

Agree.

The upside: Using genuine parts replacement at an initial greater cost.

The downside: Extra work in bringing them around.

However, using any other parts may easily produce better results in shorter time, but will in the long run discount using non Steinway replacement parts forever. Such is the way of things. The choice is obvious from where I keyboard in this response.

Keith

[Terry Farrell]

Who on earth is going to look so closely at this piano AND study the hammers to know that they are not Steinway hammers - as if that matters to anyone who knows $hit about pianos?

Terry Farrell

[tnr...@aol.com]

Joe

 

That's OK if you disagree with me. It's not the first time, and it won't be the last.

 

I've used S&S hammers quite a few times over the last 5 years with great results. I'm not saying the others aren't any good, or better, but in my experience, why not?  As far as the Teflon wips, that's up to the customer if he wants to pay to have those replaced.

 

Wim

[Keith McGavern]

On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 8:32:01 PM UTC-5, farrellpianoservice wrote:

Who on earth is going to look so closely at this piano AND study the hammers to know that they are not Steinway hammers - as if that matters to anyone who knows $hit about pianos?

Terry,

I expressed a viewpoint, not an accusation towards anyone who chooses to do otherwise, nor anyone who has already done so.

How does such a simple expressed viewpoint manage to draw forth such a comment as you have posted?

Keith

[Terry Farrell]

I guess, looking at my post in the light of day, I seem to have come off a bit more strongly than I needed to.....  :-(    Sorry 'bout that Chief!

But I think my point is valid - I didn't read your post as an accusation. It's just that one hears this S&S parts only thing too, too much IMHO. I really hate to believe that using non-S&S hammers would affect the value of the piano.

What of the S&Ss that came directly from the factory with Renner action parts? Kelly plates? Kluge keys? Are these S&Ss worth less because they are not all S&S?

Just a thing I have I guess.  :-(

Sorry for jumping so harshly.

Terry Farrell

[Keith McGavern]

On Thursday, June 12, 2014 7:24:21 AM UTC-5, farrellpianoservice wrote:

I guess, looking at my post in the light of day, I seem to have come off a bit more strongly than I needed to.....  :-(    Sorry 'bout that Chief!

No problem, Terry. 

…  I think my point is valid … What of the S&Ss that came directly from the factory with Renner action parts? Kelly plates? Kluge keys? Are these S&Ss worth less because they are not all S&S?  …

The only thing I can offer what you mention here is this. The choices that Steinway & Sons (S&S) makes in using such items from the factory is the only validation S&S needs to be considered genuine. Likewise, when one chooses to use a replacement set of hammers directly from S&S, it doesn't really matter who might have made those hammers for S&S, only that those hammers passed through S&S's inventory, and thereby automatically becomes validated as genuine S&S.

Such is how I have managed to construe the situation during my years in servicing pianos.

Sincerely, Keith

[Joseph Garrett]

Terry,

I, personally, think your original post was spot on. The need for mamby pamby tippy toeing in this regard is ridiculous imo. After all, isn't our prime directive to make pianos as good as they are capable of? I think so. What the details are to accomplish that is not for the feint of heart. Nor is it up for criticism if the end result accomplishes the prime directive.<G>

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Farrell
Sent: Jun 12, 2014 5:24 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] New Hammers for Steinway B.............Opinions Please!

I guess, looking at my post in the light of day, I seem to have come off a bit more strongly than I needed to..... :-( Sorry 'bout that Chief!

But I think my point is valid - I didn't read your post as an accusation. It's just that one hears this S&S parts only thing too, too much IMHO. I really hate to believe that using non-S&S hammers would affect the value of the piano.

What of the S&Ss that came directly from the factory with Renner action parts? Kelly plates? Kluge keys? Are these S&Ss worth less because they are not all S&S?

Just a thing I have I guess. :-(

Sorry for jumping so harshly.

Terry Farrell

On Jun 11, 2014, at 11:03 PM, Keith McGavern wrote:

> On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 8:32:01 PM UTC-5, farrellpianoservice wrote:
> Who on earth is going to look so closely at this piano AND study the hammers to know that they are not Steinway hammers - as if that matters to anyone who knows $hit about pianos?
>
> Terry,
>
> I expressed a viewpoint, not an accusation towards anyone who chooses to do otherwise, nor anyone who has already done so.
> How does such a simple expressed viewpoint manage to draw forth such a comment as you have posted?
>
> Keith

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Will Truitt]

I’ll start by saying everybody to their preferences.

 

But, to play the Devil’s Advocate, what does “genuine” mean in my example here:

 

Let’s say I have a Steinway M for which I need a new set of bass strings.  I can order the bass strings from Steinway, which will make them GENUINE.  I can order the exact same bass strings from Mapes, who is the maker of all of Steinway’s bass strings.  But since I did not order this set of bass strings from the factory but rather the maker, the set of bass strings is not genuine. 

 

What is “genuine”?

 

From the full dictionary definition, those which might be applicable:

1

a :  actually having the reputed or apparent qualities or character <genuine vintage wines>

b :  actually produced by or proceeding from the alleged source or author <the signature is genuine>

 

Since Steinway does not produce the bass strings at the factory, but rather gets them from a supplier, they are not “actually produced” by Steinway. 

 

Since Steinway sells the Mapes produced bass strings from their factory (presumably with a healthy profit tacked on top of their cost ), it meets the criteria of “proceeding from the alleged source”.  Or does it?  The set of bass strings that Steinway sells proceeded from the Mapes factory source.  Does the fact that Steinway only serves as a middleman for Mapes sourced strings  make the strings genuine Steinway?

 

It seems that “genuine” within that standard is not terribly meaningful, except to those who wish to profit and control as much of the market as they can.  In other words, the use of the word “genuine” is a way to sprinkle Steinway Holy Water onto the bass strings as a way of directing the market towards Steinway.

 

Let’s look at “apparent qualities or character”.  Way back when, Steinway designed the bass string scale, which certainly makes the sound and appearance something they created.  So that gives them some cred as genuine. 

 

But I would submit that Steinway bass strings bought directly from the Mapes factory are MORE genuine than bass strings bought from the Steinway factory.  They clearly meet the criteria of having all the apparent qualities of Steinway bass strings, since they are in every way identical. 

And they are the source, which Steinway is not.  Therefore, if you want the most Genuine Steinway bass strings, you must buy them from Mapes. 

 

For me, this is academic, since I would not buy either because of the poor quality of the strings.  The JD Grandt bass strings (rescaled) that I get with O and M Paulello core wires are vastly superior in every important way.  My customers LOVE the sound, and no one has ever complained.  No one has ever brought up the question of devaluation either.  That’s another red herring with no sound basis in fact.   

 

Will Truitt

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith McGavern

Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 9:43 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com

[David Andersen]

Great post, Will. Spot on. See you in Atlanta? Miss you.

DA

[Will Truitt]

Thanks, David.  I would truly enjoy seeing you in Atlanta, but I will not be there.  Another time!

 

Will

[Keith McGavern]

On Thursday, June 12, 2014 10:06:33 AM UTC-5, surfdog wrote:

…   Since Steinway sells the Mapes produced bass strings from their factory (presumably with a healthy profit tacked on top of their cost ), it meets the criteria of “proceeding from the alleged source”.  Or does it?  The set of bass strings that Steinway sells proceeded from the Mapes factory source.  Does the fact that Steinway only serves as a middleman for Mapes sourced strings  make the strings genuine Steinway?   … 

Will Truitt

I have one question, Will, and it's not to dispute what you say here.

Is it in writing somewhere that you can direct me to the source that has allowed you to state what you have?

Sincerely,

Keith

[David Love]

Aren't you glad you asked?  No shortage of opinions.  

I think it depends on what you want.  All the hammers mentioned will produce something acceptable but slightly different.  There are other choices as well.  On those vintage pianos the key ratios tend to be quite high with lots of lead in the keys and the knuckle hanging is 16 mm typically.  You should pay attention to weight if you are not going to replace shanks and even if you do replace the shanks with 17 mm the overall ratio will be high and you will want to lean toward lighter hammers.  I would be careful of Steinway prehung hammers.  As has been mentioned the bore distances on those vintages can vary some and you find them to be less than precise for that instrument.  First thing to be decided is what parts you are keeping and which ones you are changing.  It would be nice to change the shanks along wtih the job to 17 mm.  If you aren't changing wippens then the current Steinway shanks and flange assembly might not be a bad idea.  The match in alignment may be better.  Changing all parts would be the best solution along with a capstan move to bring the action ratio more into compliance.  

If none of those are in the cards and you are just selecting hammers you will have to make sure that the weight is kept light.  Ronsen hammers in either the 14 or 16 lb standard configuration will probably be too heavy even with lightweight maple.  In that style also you will likely have to harden the set at least in the upper end.  I prefer a "low profile" set (which you can order from Ronsen).  The Wurzen will be a bit brighter than the Weickert and if ordered in that profile you will likely not need to harden them at all.  

Though Steinway hammers would not be my personal choice I wouldn't consider them a disaster as some have suggested.  You should order them unlacquered and to that yourself if you are comfortable and also unbored so you can taper them to the appropriate weight. Steinway hammers still use harder maple so they tend to be heavier for the same profile as ones with lightweight maple or Cherry (Ronsen).

There will be others who would suggest other hammers such as Renner Blue Points or even Abel naturals.  Though this would not be my personal choice for various reasons they are well made hammers within their own style.  

It's always best to make the assessment of which hammer to use based on your tonal goals, amount of playing time the hammer will get, venue requirements, voicing preferences and personal tastes.  Weight is certainly a consideration as well, especially in this case.  

In my view the best hammer is the one that requires the least amount of manipulation, either up or down, as those procedures invariably compromise the integrity of the hammer to some degree.  Sampling hammer, therefore, is a good idea until you are familiar enough with a particular product and piano to know what it will produce.  

Thus, the answers you have gotten so far probably only add to the confusion and probably reflect the personal and therefore less objective opinions that you really require.  

David Love

[Terry Farrell]

Awe Geezzzzz.  I'm not going either then. Can I get my money back? Can someone teach my class for me?   :-(

Terry Farrell

[Will Truitt]

Do I have it in writing somewhere?  Not that I can recall.  It has long been my understanding that Steinway New York does not make its bass strings (don’t know about Hamburg), and that Mapes has been their supplier of choice.  I have heard that from various people over a period of years, and I doubt if I could recall their names for you.  If that does not satisfy you, I certainly understand. 

 

Will

From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith McGavern
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 3:13 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] New Hammers for Steinway B.............Opinions Please!

 

[Ron Nossaman]

On 6/12/2014 3:40 PM, Will Truitt wrote:
> Do I have it in writing somewhere? Not that I can recall. It has
> long been my understanding that Steinway New York does not make its
> bass strings (don’t know about Hamburg), and that Mapes has been
> their supplier of choice. I have heard that from various people over
> a period of years, and I doubt if I could recall their names for you.
> If that does not satisfy you, I certainly understand.
>
> Will
>

> *From:*pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Keith McGavern *Sent:* Thursday, June 12, 2014 3:13
> PM *To:* pian...@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: [pianotech] New

> Hammers for Steinway B.............Opinions Please!
>
>

It's a long shot I know, but one could always do some meticulous
research such as looking on the Mapes website and reading

---- http://www.mapesstrings.com/ ---

The Best Source for
Piano Strings

We built our quality reputation a hundred years ago with Steinway
Pianos, still a Mapes piano string customer today. We've got the right
strings for your piano as well. Find single strings, portion sets, full
sets, piano wire, tuning pins, and music wire.

---------------------------
Ron N

[Keith McGavern]

On Thursday, June 12, 2014 4:24:16 PM UTC-5, Ron Nossaman wrote:

---- http://www.mapesstrings.com/ ---

The Best Source for
Piano Strings

We built our quality reputation a hundred years ago with Steinway
Pianos, still a Mapes piano string customer today. We've got the right
strings for your piano as well. Find single strings, portion sets, full

sets, piano wire, tuning pins, and music wire. …

Thank you for that information, Ron. Out of curiosity I have submitted an email to Steinway & Sons for verification of such a statement. Now whether I will ever hear back from them remains to be seen. I additionally asked if that statement includes the Boston and Essex piano lines as well.

Keith 

[Will Truitt]

Errr. Errr. Uhhhh.

Uhhh, I was busy rescaling a piano for Paulello wire. Yeh, that's it. (Actually, I was. That's the best I could do for an excuse). Hey, if I haven't looked it up after 102 years, why start now?

Will

[Ron Nossaman]

On 6/12/2014 5:07 PM, Will Truitt wrote:
> Errr. Errr. Uhhhh.
>
> Uhhh, I was busy rescaling a piano for Paulello wire. Yeh, that's
> it. (Actually, I was. That's the best I could do for an excuse).
> Hey, if I haven't looked it up after 102 years, why start now?

I don't know. Seemed to me like a Gee Whiz, let's look sort of thing
that might actually save some rambling (for later, when it could be
spent outdoors more therapeutically).
Ron N

[Keith McGavern]

On Thursday, June 12, 2014 4:24:16 PM UTC-5, Ron Nossaman wrote:

---- http://www.mapesstrings.com/ --- 

An additional page at Mapes:

http://www.mapesstrings.com/history

Makes for interesting reading, and quite a testimony and legacy as to the quality of Mapes strings to maintain Steinway & Sons as being its only supplier of piano strings.

[Will Truitt]

Yes, it says quite a lot about what Steinway considers acceptable standards.  Which is why a lot of us don’t use GENUINE Steinway parts – or Mapes. 

 

I leave it to you to be impressed by that, Keith.    I’m not.  Call me a heretic, but I don’t believe in faith-based rebuilding. 

 

Will

[Ron Nossaman]

On 6/12/2014 6:23 PM, Will Truitt wrote:
> Yes, it says quite a lot about what Steinway considers acceptable
> standards. Which is why a lot of us don’t use GENUINE Steinway parts
> – or Mapes.
>
> I leave it to you to be impressed by that, Keith. I’m not. Call
> me a heretic, but I don’t believe in faith-based rebuilding.

I do. I "believe" that any decent shop can produce a technically better
rebuild than the Mother Ship's resurrection facility. Or might that be
merely an opinion based on experience with both, rather than belief? At
least it's a genuine authentic rationally arrived at opinion.

Actually, I'm quite happy with Mapes IG plain wire over Roslau, but I'll
keep using J.D.Grant for wrapped strings.

Ron N

[Will Truitt]

I agree that good shops can produce superior work to Steinway's facility. That is also an opinion based on experience with both, and not belief. We often have access to better materials and use them where they offer superior performance. And the standards of workmenship is better in the good shops, and can be more consistent.

I used Roslau for a number of years, and used the Mapes IG plain wire for the last number of years. They both make good wire. I've been using the Paulello wire for the past year or so. To my ear, it is audibly superior to Mapes. My customers have been ecstatic with the results, and I've had about 10 technician friends listen to pianos strung with this wire, bass and treble. Several of them are people whose intelligence, knowledge, and ear I greatly respect. There was a very strong consistency of opinion about the exceptional quality of this wire, and even stronger positive reactions where substitution of lower breaking percentage wire types was used to address scaling deficiencies due to low tension, low BP, and bad scaling. It is also used to balance and blend the scale. So it's not merely my own confirmation bias. This use is not based on faith, but spreadsheets tracking BP%, inharmonicity, tension, loudness, stretch, L-mode and other things - all mirrored by the feedback my ears are giving me. I also use JD Grandt bass strings, he's very good. Try the Paulello cores, if you haven't already, he's using him on a lot of his strings.

Arno Patin did the first two scalings for me. The scalings and the spreadsheet design are his intellectual property, and I will always respect that. But I have his permission to share these scales, so I can send one of them to you if you like.

Will

[David Kroenlein]

It all sounds so hunkey-dory, just like baseball, apple pie......

Sent from my iPhone