Broken leg repair

[Rob McCall]

Greetings,

I had a client send me this photo of a broken leg from an organ.  Any thoughts on the best way to fix this? I’m not quite sure where to start with this puppy.  Thanks!

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Oceanside, CA
951-698-1875

[Regi Hedahl]

I would glue and clamp it back together with epoxy.

Regi Hedahl

[Paul McCloud]

Clamp and glue with epoxy, as Regi suggested. I would add some screws. You'll have to fill, sand and finish the break anyway, so sink the screws below the surface and cover them up while you're at it.
Good luck.
Paul McCloud

[Ron Nossaman]

On 8/2/2015 10:54 PM, Rob McCall wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I had a client send me this photo of a broken leg from an organ. Any
> thoughts on the best way to fix this? I’m not quite sure where to start
> with this puppy. Thanks!

I'd probably use Titebond. It's plenty strong enough and a lot easier to
clean up. It'll be tough to clamp, so I'd put maybe four or even five
screws in from the back, and use them for clamping and alignment.
Possibly bind it with rubber if additional clamping is needed, not
knowing what the back looks like. That "hinge" at the bottom rear will
be the ugly part.
Ron N

[Isaac Sadigursky]

I would suggest the following;
1] Glue with Titebond [TM] Wood Glue;
2] Align

3] Have wet rags or Baby wipes handy to wipe-off exess glue
Clamp with round automotive Hose Clamps
protect the wood with soft pieces of rubber and wax paper

When dry [overnight]:
4] Remove clamps;
5] Drill 7/32" holes at different angles and drive in Hammer shanks with Titebond glue
6] Trim the shanks..
Done!!!!
It worked for me many times..
This procedure was covered in the Journal a few month ago in Tech.Tips section
hope, it helps

Good Luck !!
Isaac

[Isaac Sadigursky]

On Aug 2, 2015, at 10:04 PM, Isaac Sadigursky wrote:
Hi, Rob !

[richa...@comcast.net]

I used West System G – flex epoxy  on a French provincial leg that was broken at the bottom where the caster is. Also drilled through and inserted a maple Dowell . I would go that route ,so far it has held up .

Rick Ucci

Uccipiano.com

<IMG_1357.jpeg>

[Rob McCall]

Thanks Isaac! Great ideas!

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Oceanside, CA
951-698-1875

[Rob McCall]

Thanks Ron,

This is on a Hammond organ they also want to sell. I don’t know if the leg is removable or not. Probably not. I’m probably going to use Titebond because I hate unsticking my self from the materials when I use epoxy. :-) Screws will be good unless they are going to be visible, then I may try Isaac’s dowel method for appearances.

I’ll know more when I see it next week.

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Oceanside, CA
951-698-1875

[Ron Nossaman]

On 8/3/2015 11:48 AM, Rob McCall wrote:

> I don’t know if the leg is removable or not.

It's not, but the crack doesn't extend up to where the leg attaches. The
entire thing is accessible from the back, hence my suggestion. I
really did look at it before making the suggestion.

> Probably not. I’m probably going to use Titebond because I hate
> unsticking my self from the materials when I use epoxy. :-) Screws
> will be good unless they are going to be visible, then I may try
> Isaac’s dowel method for appearances.

Dowels are great, I've used miles of them. I suggested the screws so
they can be used as the necessary *clamps* and for joint alignment,
inserted from the back as pictured in the attachment. It's an awkward
shape, and difficult to clamp and maintain alignment. Use washers and
wax the screws, and they can be removed after the glue dries and shanks
can be installed, leaving no big black screw heads and making the repair
easier to hide. Nothing at all will show from the front or side except
chips or misalignment at the joint edge.

Spend plenty of time whittling loose stuff and high spots out of both
sides of the split without damaging the edges, and lots of trial fits
before assembling it. The absolute most common bad repair I find is
poorly fitted glue joints. They virtually never go back together cleanly
without removing material from the joint, and that rarely gets done. The
really big problem is, again, going to be at the bottom of the crack
where the wood is splintered and bent out. Considerable whittling and
Isaac's hose clamp may save you there (I hope, because it's your best
chance), but be aware it's the job killer. Ugly in waiting. Proper prep
is critical.

Good luck. It would make a good repair photo series for a one page
Journal article, so take pictures en route and decide when you're done
if you'd like to submit it. <G> In any case, we'd like to see how it goes.
Ron N

[Douglas Gregg]

For clamping such odd shapes, I find electrical tape to wok well. It
is stretchy and really pulls odd shaped pieces together. It will
usually not pull off a factory finish unless it is loose already.

Doug Gregg

[Isaac Sadigursky]

Good Tip about the Electrical Tape...
Thank you, Doug !
Isaac

[Joseph Garrett]

Make up your mind.<G> It's either Glue or Epoxy.
Joe


Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

-----Original Message-----
>From: Regi Hedahl <piano...@gmail.com>
>Sent: Aug 2, 2015 9:17 PM
>To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
>Subject: [pianotech] Broken leg repair
>

[Joe DeFazio]

Ron Nossaman wrote:

> Spend plenty of time whittling loose stuff and high spots out of both sides of the split without damaging the edges, and lots of trial fits before assembling it. The absolute most common bad repair I find is poorly fitted glue joints. They virtually never go back together cleanly without removing material from the joint, and that rarely gets done. The really big problem is, again, going to be at the bottom of the crack where the wood is splintered and bent out. Considerable whittling and Isaac's hose clamp may save you there (I hope, because it's your best chance), but be aware it's the job killer. Ugly in waiting. Proper prep is critical.

Amen to that! Dry fit, remove splinters, test alignment, and keep working on it until it is a great fit. Then, Titebond will work as intended (it is a poor gap filler; don't make it do what it wasn't designed to do).

After you get it dry fitted and temporarily clamped, I would drill holes for screws or dowels, and test fit them. Even if you don't feel that they are needed for strength, I would count on them being aligmnent insurers once the glue goes on. The glue makes everything so slippery that what seems like an easily aligned fit can slide out of position quite stubbornly, especially if the clamping pressure is anything other than exactly perpendicualr to the mating surfaces. So, I like to have something mechanical keeping the alignment exactly as I want it to be. If you use screws, be sure to drill a larger clearance hole through the part that the screw will penetrate first. If you don't do that, the screws might actually slightly wedge the pieces apart permanently. Yes, drilling larger clearance holes should surely be common knowledge, but evidence abounds in the real piano world that some techs ignore this crucial woodworking principle, unfortunately.

I sometimes use old bicycle inner tubes as clamps for hard-to-clamp breaks like this; you can keep stretching and wrapping until you're happy with the clamping pressure, and then tuck a loop under your last turn or two to "tie" it off. You could cut them into strips if you want more delicate control (though I generally don't). I guess a broken piano moving (large) rubber band would work as well (never tried it). After a few turns, this will obscure your view of the joint, but if you've used dowels or screws for alignment, you should be confident of the alignment. I would cover all non-gluing surfaces woth blue painter's tape before starting, to protect the finish from glue squeeze-out. I would use one clamp first (maybe Isaac's hose clamp), install the dowels or screws, clean off most of the glue squeeze-out, and then wrap with inner tube (or maybe Doug's electrical tape). As always, do a test run •before• the glue goes on!

Joe DeFazio
Pittsburgh

[Ron Nossaman]

On 8/4/2015 4:32 PM, Joe DeFazio wrote:


> I sometimes use old bicycle inner tubes as clamps for hard-to-clamp
> breaks like this; you can keep stretching and wrapping until you're
> happy with the clamping pressure, and then tuck a loop under your
> last turn or two to "tie" it off. You could cut them into strips if
> you want more delicate control (though I generally don't). I guess a
> broken piano moving (large) rubber band would work as well (never
> tried it). After a few turns, this will obscure your view of the
> joint, but if you've used dowels or screws for alignment, you should
> be confident of the alignment. I would cover all non-gluing surfaces
> woth blue painter's tape before starting, to protect the finish from
> glue squeeze-out. I would use one clamp first (maybe Isaac's hose
> clamp), install the dowels or screws, clean off most of the glue
> squeeze-out, and then wrap with inner tube (or maybe Doug's
> electrical tape). As always, do a test run •before• the glue goes
> on!

The shape of the leg is a killer. That taper, looked at from the corner,
is extreme. I'd be surprised if any sort of rubber strap, hose clamp, or
even electrical tape would effectively stay up where it was needed.

All right Rob, get the heck on with it and let us know what worked.
Ron N

[Rob McCall]

I’m getting on with it, Ron… :-)  Appointment is on Thursday.  

Here’s a big picture view of the Hammond.  You can see the leg from a different angle, etc. It’s all splayed out.  

I do like a challenge, though.  Something gratifying about seeing a problem, coming up with a solution, and having it work.  So far, I’m on step 1 but I’m hopeful.  Thanks for everyone’s help!  Much appreciated!

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Oceanside, CA
951-698-1875

[Ron Nossaman]

On 8/4/2015 7:41 PM, Rob McCall wrote:
> I’m getting on with it, Ron… :-) Appointment is on Thursday.
>
> Here’s a big picture view of the Hammond. You can see the leg from a
> different angle, etc. It’s all splayed out.

Hey, that's not as bad as I expected! That'll wrap.

Ron N

[Rob McCall]

Actually, my big concern at the moment is, What did they already put on it to try and fix it? Am I going to find a gorilla glue and gravel mix? or something else fun? :-)

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Oceanside, CA
951-698-1875

[Rob McCall]

Okay,  the repair is complete.  There was pretty extensive damage and lots of missing pieces of wood on the finished side of things. The leg had broken completely off.  So, even though it didn’t end up looking like it never happened, I do feel that I did the best that was possible under the conditions. 

Also, there was a screw already attached to the leg, from the manufacturer I’m guessing, due to the fact that it had a wood plug on top of it that matched the finished leg. You’d think the screw would’ve added strength, but in reality all it did was cause more damage when the leg broke off. Since I couldn’t get the plug out, I had to use pliers on the other end of the screw to back it out and slowly push out the plug. See the photos below.

I cleaned and whittled and fitted and swore (under my breath). I had what I considered a tight fit, but a clean fit. After I had a clean dry fit, I drilled two holes for two screws to be used in the repair and checked to make sure it all fit.  

Then I took the parts apart, put titebond on all the parts and reattached.  I then waxed the threads and drove in the two screws.  I used a pan head screw with a washer.  I wasn’t going to countersink a temporary screw so this seemed the best option. It was a tight fit with a fair amount of squeeze-out, which I cleaned out nicely, and then wrapped the whole thing in electrical tape.  That stuff works really well! Nice adhesion and pressure and holding power, but came right off without a mess the following day.

The following day, I removed the tape and the screws after checking the leg for strength.  I then drilled a 1/4 inch hole in the existing screw holes.  I slathered up some 1/4” hard wood dowels I had with titebond, making sure I plenty on the tip so I’d get lots of glue in the hole.  I shoved and twisted them in and tapped them lightly with my mallet to seat them.  I then cut them off flush with my oscillating saw thingy I got from harbor freight for just this type of job. :-)

I also reused the screw they had coming from the outside and put the plug back in for a decent finish on the outside.  So, two dowels at divergent angles on the inside and the one screw diagonally between the dowels.  It’s pretty rock solid now.

I had tried to put some wood filler on the back side, which turned out not to be the same color.  Luckily, it’s a sandable and paintable product and they said they would try and match it later on their own.  That’s the part I wish I had more time to make it look better, but maybe another day.  They were happy with what I did.

Thanks again for everyone’s help! As you can tell, I used a variety of ideas from all the contributors to a successful outcome. I couldn’t have done it (this well) without you guys (and gals)!

Regards,

Rob McCall

McCall Piano Service, LLC
www.mccallpiano.com
Oceanside, CA
951-698-1875