Steinway L Lyre Brace Repair
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Paul Milesi
Jun 6, 2014, 3:31:04 PM6/6/14
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I have encountered a 1978 Steinway L in a hotel with dangling lyre braces, evidence of previous repairs (like a screw up into the keybed behind the brace, felt in keybed hole to bush out, etc.). Piano needed this evening for performance. There is excessive play/space when braces are in place, something like 3/8”. Never seen this much, with lyre up tight to keyed.
What might be the best onsite repair for this? Ideally I would like adjustable modification, but short of a screw in the top or bottom end of the brace (is one end better than the other?), and/or thick felt shim, not sure what else could work nicely. Thoughts? Is taking the lyre on and off, trial and error for thickness, the only way to get this fit right?
Thank you.
lewis Newman
Jun 6, 2014, 4:08:37 PM6/6/14
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It obviously won't help for tonights performance sadly, but i like to use the cup headed bolts for mounting upright actions for this problem. Just install one in each hole, and they are easily adjustable without removing the lyre..
I think Jurgen might sell them too. There are a few different lengths available.. Something like this..(not sure if this link will work)
Lewis
From: Paul Milesi <pa...@pmpiano.com>
To: PTech Google Group <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 6 June 2014, 20:30
Subject: [pianotech] Steinway L Lyre Brace Repair
Paul Milesi
Jun 6, 2014, 4:26:40 PM6/6/14
to PTech Google Group
Thanks, Lewis. I assume you mean one in each of the two holes in the top, in the keybed, not all 4 holes. Also, I guess you have to then cut the lyre braces to work with whatever length of bolt you use (long enough to extend out of the hole for adjustment), and also taper the ends so they fit into the cup securely?
paul bruesch
Jun 6, 2014, 4:58:30 PM6/6/14
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How about using T-nuts? Of course you'd have to recess them inside the keybed, so you'd have to make a tool for that. Best such suggestion I've seen is to use a spade bit and grind new cutting edges on the shank end. (Compliments of Tio Tom, may he RIP.)
--
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Paul Bruesch
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paul bruesch
Jun 6, 2014, 5:00:50 PM6/6/14
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Of course it's probably too late for all that before tonight's performance, but IF no part of the keyframe rests on them, you could do the T-nuts now, then return later and finish the recess job.
On Friday, June 6, 2014, paul bruesch <pa...@bruesch.net> wrote:
On Friday, June 6, 2014, paul bruesch <pa...@bruesch.net> wrote:
How about using T-nuts? Of course you'd have to recess them inside the keybed, so you'd have to make a tool for that. Best such suggestion I've seen is to use a spade bit and grind new cutting edges on the shank end. (Compliments of Tio Tom, may he RIP.)Paul Bruesch
Lewis newman
Jun 6, 2014, 5:30:31 PM6/6/14
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Yes, one in each hole in the keybed.
That's right you have to cut them down slightly and maybe shape them to fit,although not always necessary..
Lewis.
John Ross
Jun 6, 2014, 5:50:12 PM6/6/14
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If the piano is not going to be moved, how about a couple of wedges, and just tap them together to take out the looseness.
I wish I could send a drawing of what I mean, it is fast and easily removable.
John Ross,
Windsor, Nova Scotia.
P.S. I have used a telephone book, till I could do the proper repair.
Joe Goss
Jun 6, 2014, 6:39:49 PM6/6/14
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Hymnal opened to the correct page
Joseph Garrett
Jun 6, 2014, 7:00:05 PM6/6/14
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Paul,
It's obvious that the lyre is not "locking" into it's male/female coupler properly. Check to see it the plates are secure and level with the surfaces of the underside of the key bed brace and the lyre top. Dead Blow Hammer the lyre to get tight fit, AFTER the lyre braces are in place. They should be tight. If they aren't then you may have someone else's lyre braces or there's a physical reason why the lyre is not locking in place. Check to see where the rods are aligning in relation to the trap lever contacts. That is a good indicator. I've never found a Steinway lyre/braces to not work when all the interlocking parts are in proper position. Steinway lyres are different and bullet proof in my opinion. Check and recheck.<G>
Only other thing that could be wrong is if someone got a new set of lyre braces to replace the "lost ones"! If that is the case, you should know that Steinway has changed the overall dimensions of their lyres. (I think they shortened everything) I think that change happened some time in the 80's. New stuff will not fit an old Steinway!
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Milesi
Sent: Jun 6, 2014 12:30 PM
To: PTech Google Group
Subject: [pianotech] Steinway L Lyre Brace Repair
I have encountered a 1978 Steinway L in a hotel with dangling lyre braces,
evidence of previous repairs (like a screw up into the keybed behind the
brace, felt in keybed hole to bush out, etc.). Piano needed this evening
for performance. There is excessive play/space when braces are in place,
something like 3/8². Never seen this much, with lyre up tight to keyed.
What might be the best onsite repair for this? Ideally I would like
adjustable modification, but short of a screw in the top or bottom end of
the brace (is one end better than the other?), and/or thick felt shim, not
sure what else could work nicely. Thoughts? Is taking the lyre on and off,
trial and error for thickness, the only way to get this fit right?
Thank you.
--
Paul Milesi RPT
Washington DC
(202) 246-3136 Cell/Text
pa...@pmpiano.com
http://www.pmpiano.com
Captain of the Tool Police Squares R I gpianoworks.com
Paul Milesi
Jun 6, 2014, 7:45:59 PM6/6/14
to PTech Google Group
Thanks, all, for your various ideas and input. The frustration today was extremely limited windows of time to access the piano in a ballroom with several functions scheduled throughout the day prior to the main event this evening. Fortunately I got in to pitch it last night, because they cut the tuning short today, too.
Joe Garrett: Yup, all that you say is what I checked initially. Being a 1978, the lyre is held in place with two large screws up into the keybed, once the plates are locked, rather than the rotating wedge lock. Top block is flush up with keybed brace, and time was extremely short, so I didn’t take the lyre off to check things but I did assume (yes, I know, but time was short today) that since screws through top block were in place, lyre plates must be fully locked in. I suppose that’s not necessarily true; someone could have drilled new holes? Pedal rod/trapwork alignments looked OK, though, but with excessive lost motion.
Anyway, something’s rotten in Denmark, because all three pedals have tons of lost motion. Maybe it’s a replacement lyre or something, but both lyre and braces look to be original in terms of wear. Looking in from the back, the pedal cushions appear to be much more smooshed down than I usually see the ravioli. I cut some tiny pieces of soft leather and put three in the dried out rubber damper rod bushing in the heel of the pedal, just to take up some lost motion, because the adjusting nut was literally all the way out and barely sitting atop the rod, and there was still 3/8” lost motion!
Ended up re-using somebody else’s old fix and re-installing the two Phillips head screws up into keybed after install braces with thick felt shims. Oh, well, it’s playable.
Looks like I’ve made a positive impression on management and this might become a new steady customer, so hopefully I’ll get to revisit this one, figure it out, and make it right. Fun little diversion today, anyway.
Paul
Ron Nossaman
Jun 6, 2014, 9:34:21 PM6/6/14
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On 6/6/2014 6:45 PM, Paul Milesi wrote:
> Pedal
> rod/trapwork alignments looked OK, though, but with excessive lost motion.
>
> Anyway, something’s rotten in Denmark, because all three pedals have
> tons of lost motion. Maybe it’s a replacement lyre or something, but
> both lyre and braces look to be original in terms of wear. Looking in
> from the back, the pedal cushions appear to be much more smooshed down
> than I usually see the ravioli. I cut some tiny pieces of soft leather
> and put three in the dried out rubber damper rod bushing in the heel of
> the pedal, just to take up some lost motion, because the adjusting nut
> was literally all the way out and barely sitting atop the rod, and there
> was still 3/8” lost motion!
Something is indeed rotten. A mislocated lyre won't make the pedal rods
> Pedal
> rod/trapwork alignments looked OK, though, but with excessive lost motion.
>
> Anyway, something’s rotten in Denmark, because all three pedals have
> tons of lost motion. Maybe it’s a replacement lyre or something, but
> both lyre and braces look to be original in terms of wear. Looking in
> from the back, the pedal cushions appear to be much more smooshed down
> than I usually see the ravioli. I cut some tiny pieces of soft leather
> and put three in the dried out rubber damper rod bushing in the heel of
> the pedal, just to take up some lost motion, because the adjusting nut
> was literally all the way out and barely sitting atop the rod, and there
> was still 3/8” lost motion!
shorter. Pedal rods and lyre braces don't shrink either, but lyres do
get longer when they're coming apart. But that should have been obvious.
The only time I've seen this, I was standing at a practice room door
while the tech and the student discussed why the lyre braces had
suddenly fallen out and the pedals no longer worked. I thought it would
be helpful to point out that the lyre box had come loose from the
pillars and was sitting on the floor.
So something is definitely weird here.
Ron N
Joseph Garrett
Jun 7, 2014, 2:35:00 AM6/7/14
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Ron,
OMG! Giant head slap! I think your analysis is dead on! Just bet when he has more time to check everything, it'll come up with failed lyre post joints! I'm really feeling stupid for not catching that!
Joe
OMG! Giant head slap! I think your analysis is dead on! Just bet when he has more time to check everything, it'll come up with failed lyre post joints! I'm really feeling stupid for not catching that!
Joe
Ron Nossaman
Jun 7, 2014, 7:16:31 AM6/7/14
to pian...@googlegroups.com
On 6/7/2014 1:34 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> Ron, OMG! Giant head slap! I think your analysis is dead on! Just bet
> when he has more time to check everything, it'll come up with failed
> lyre post joints! I'm really feeling stupid for not catching that!
> Joe
Don't. Nobody thinks of every possibility immediately, even on site and
> Ron, OMG! Giant head slap! I think your analysis is dead on! Just bet
> when he has more time to check everything, it'll come up with failed
> lyre post joints! I'm really feeling stupid for not catching that!
> Joe
looking at it. Throw in time constraints and distractions and things are
really easy to miss. Diagnosing from a distance is worse, which is why I
so often suggest to posters of questions that they work something out
for themselves instead of us supplying a complete list of possibilities.
They have a better chance of finding the problem diagnostically than we
do of guessing it.
Ron N
Paul Milesi
Jun 7, 2014, 2:00:33 PM6/7/14
to PTech Google Group
Ron & Joe,
Excellent suggestions, of course. But first two things I checked were
lyre box-to-keybed brace mating, and possible separation of the lyre.
Neither was evident. That¹s when I went to the pedal box, and observed
squished cushions. Not sure how/why that happened, but they sure as heck
looked flatter than any I¹ve ever seen. BTW, I had even thought maybe the
leather disk at the trap lever might be missing, but on my second look
yesterday, found it to be in place.
Since there is unacceptable side play in the damper pedal anyway, my plan
is to rebuild the pedal box with new cushions, bushings, pedal rod heel
grommet and tiny leather insert, and see where I end up at that point in
terms of lost motion. My guess is, I¹ll be a lot closer to the mark,
maybe even in normal range. Of course that still doesn¹t explain the play
in the braces, does it? More observation required. With the lyre off and
maybe even in the shop, that will be easier than using a little flashlight
on my back like I had to do yesterday!
Paul
--
Paul Milesi RPT
Washington DC
(202) 246-3136 Cell/Text
pa...@pmpiano.com
http://www.pmpiano.com
Excellent suggestions, of course. But first two things I checked were
lyre box-to-keybed brace mating, and possible separation of the lyre.
Neither was evident. That¹s when I went to the pedal box, and observed
squished cushions. Not sure how/why that happened, but they sure as heck
looked flatter than any I¹ve ever seen. BTW, I had even thought maybe the
leather disk at the trap lever might be missing, but on my second look
yesterday, found it to be in place.
Since there is unacceptable side play in the damper pedal anyway, my plan
is to rebuild the pedal box with new cushions, bushings, pedal rod heel
grommet and tiny leather insert, and see where I end up at that point in
terms of lost motion. My guess is, I¹ll be a lot closer to the mark,
maybe even in normal range. Of course that still doesn¹t explain the play
in the braces, does it? More observation required. With the lyre off and
maybe even in the shop, that will be easier than using a little flashlight
on my back like I had to do yesterday!
Paul
--
Paul Milesi RPT
Washington DC
(202) 246-3136 Cell/Text
pa...@pmpiano.com
http://www.pmpiano.com
Ron Nossaman
Jun 7, 2014, 2:18:09 PM6/7/14
to pian...@googlegroups.com
On 6/7/2014 1:00 PM, Paul Milesi wrote:
> Since there is unacceptable side play in the damper pedal anyway, my plan
> is to rebuild the pedal box with new cushions, bushings, pedal rod heel
> grommet and tiny leather insert, and see where I end up at that point in
> terms of lost motion. My guess is, I¹ll be a lot closer to the mark,
> maybe even in normal range. Of course that still doesn¹t explain the play
> in the braces, does it? More observation required. With the lyre off and
> maybe even in the shop, that will be easier than using a little flashlight
> on my back like I had to do yesterday!
Good plan, and dropping the lyre will tell you about the plate fit and
> Since there is unacceptable side play in the damper pedal anyway, my plan
> is to rebuild the pedal box with new cushions, bushings, pedal rod heel
> grommet and tiny leather insert, and see where I end up at that point in
> terms of lost motion. My guess is, I¹ll be a lot closer to the mark,
> maybe even in normal range. Of course that still doesn¹t explain the play
> in the braces, does it? More observation required. With the lyre off and
> maybe even in the shop, that will be easier than using a little flashlight
> on my back like I had to do yesterday!
possible mislocation. That could take care of the lyre stick problem too.
Good luck.
Ron N
Paul Milesi
Jun 7, 2014, 3:26:03 PM6/7/14
to PTech Google Group
Thanks, Ron. -Paul
Joseph Garrett
Jun 7, 2014, 3:46:01 PM6/7/14
to pian...@googlegroups.com
Paul,
If the lyre posts/box/top plate have not separated then I'd look at the plank of wood that is supposed to be attached to the underside of the key bed. In performance pianos I've seen where the piano was rolled over a stage access door that was open and the whole thing ripped right out!
Your idea to rebuild the system is a good one, but I'd first find out why those braces are loose. It's Plane Geometry at it's best. If the "triangle" is enlarged all "legs" are longer!<G>
Best,
joe
-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Milesi <pa...@pmpiano.com>
>Sent: Jun 7, 2014 11:00 AM
>To: PTech Google Group <pian...@googlegroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Steinway L Lyre Brace Repair
>
If the lyre posts/box/top plate have not separated then I'd look at the plank of wood that is supposed to be attached to the underside of the key bed. In performance pianos I've seen where the piano was rolled over a stage access door that was open and the whole thing ripped right out!
Your idea to rebuild the system is a good one, but I'd first find out why those braces are loose. It's Plane Geometry at it's best. If the "triangle" is enlarged all "legs" are longer!<G>
Best,
joe
-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Milesi <pa...@pmpiano.com>
>Sent: Jun 7, 2014 11:00 AM
>To: PTech Google Group <pian...@googlegroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Steinway L Lyre Brace Repair
>
>Ron & Joe,
>
>Excellent suggestions, of course. But first two things I checked were
>lyre box-to-keybed brace mating, and possible separation of the lyre.
>Neither was evident. That¹s when I went to the pedal box, and observed
>squished cushions. Not sure how/why that happened, but they sure as heck
>looked flatter than any I¹ve ever seen. BTW, I had even thought maybe the
>leather disk at the trap lever might be missing, but on my second look
>yesterday, found it to be in place.
>
>
>Excellent suggestions, of course. But first two things I checked were
>lyre box-to-keybed brace mating, and possible separation of the lyre.
>Neither was evident. That¹s when I went to the pedal box, and observed
>squished cushions. Not sure how/why that happened, but they sure as heck
>looked flatter than any I¹ve ever seen. BTW, I had even thought maybe the
>leather disk at the trap lever might be missing, but on my second look
>yesterday, found it to be in place.
>
>Since there is unacceptable side play in the damper pedal anyway, my plan
>is to rebuild the pedal box with new cushions, bushings, pedal rod heel
>grommet and tiny leather insert, and see where I end up at that point in
>terms of lost motion. My guess is, I¹ll be a lot closer to the mark,
>maybe even in normal range. Of course that still doesn¹t explain the play
>in the braces, does it? More observation required. With the lyre off and
>maybe even in the shop, that will be easier than using a little flashlight
>on my back like I had to do yesterday!
>
>is to rebuild the pedal box with new cushions, bushings, pedal rod heel
>grommet and tiny leather insert, and see where I end up at that point in
>terms of lost motion. My guess is, I¹ll be a lot closer to the mark,
>maybe even in normal range. Of course that still doesn¹t explain the play
>in the braces, does it? More observation required. With the lyre off and
>maybe even in the shop, that will be easier than using a little flashlight
>on my back like I had to do yesterday!
>
>Paul
>--
>Paul Milesi RPT
>Washington DC
>(202) 246-3136 Cell/Text
>pa...@pmpiano.com
>http://www.pmpiano.com
>
>
>
>On 6/7/14 7:17 AM, "Ron Nossaman" <rnos...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On 6/7/2014 1:34 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
>>> Ron, OMG! Giant head slap! I think your analysis is dead on! Just bet
>>> when he has more time to check everything, it'll come up with failed
>>> lyre post joints! I'm really feeling stupid for not catching that!
>>> Joe
>>
>>Don't. Nobody thinks of every possibility immediately, even on site and
>>looking at it. Throw in time constraints and distractions and things are
>>really easy to miss. Diagnosing from a distance is worse, which is why I
>>so often suggest to posters of questions that they work something out
>>for themselves instead of us supplying a complete list of possibilities.
>>They have a better chance of finding the problem diagnostically than we
>>do of guessing it.
>>Ron N
>>
>
>
>--
>Paul Milesi RPT
>Washington DC
>(202) 246-3136 Cell/Text
>pa...@pmpiano.com
>http://www.pmpiano.com
>
>
>
>On 6/7/14 7:17 AM, "Ron Nossaman" <rnos...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On 6/7/2014 1:34 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
>>> Ron, OMG! Giant head slap! I think your analysis is dead on! Just bet
>>> when he has more time to check everything, it'll come up with failed
>>> lyre post joints! I'm really feeling stupid for not catching that!
>>> Joe
>>
>>Don't. Nobody thinks of every possibility immediately, even on site and
>>looking at it. Throw in time constraints and distractions and things are
>>really easy to miss. Diagnosing from a distance is worse, which is why I
>>so often suggest to posters of questions that they work something out
>>for themselves instead of us supplying a complete list of possibilities.
>>They have a better chance of finding the problem diagnostically than we
>>do of guessing it.
>>Ron N
>>
>
>
Paul Milesi
Jun 7, 2014, 4:12:46 PM6/7/14
to PTech Google Group
Joe,
Thanks for this idea. As I read your post, I remembered that there was a
marble(?) threshold at the doorway into the ballroom. The whole area is
carpeted, and the piano (on stage dolly) is wheeled around on it. I did
caution them about the threshold, since I wasn’t sure the lyre would clear
it, but didn’t think about the piece you mention under the keybed.
Regarding the geometry: It seems to me one leg is fixed in length (keybed
side), the brace distance is (appears to be) increased, so only one
additional side will be longer (maybe the lyre), but the angles will
change. It’s been many years, so not sure. ;) But thanks for getting me
thinking about it. I always explain to students at the University that
lid props need to form a right angle with the lid, that’s how you tell
you’re using the right prop hole/support, and then I casually throw in
that the music desk functions forms the hypotenuse. :) They love it!
Best,
Paul
Thanks for this idea. As I read your post, I remembered that there was a
marble(?) threshold at the doorway into the ballroom. The whole area is
carpeted, and the piano (on stage dolly) is wheeled around on it. I did
caution them about the threshold, since I wasn’t sure the lyre would clear
it, but didn’t think about the piece you mention under the keybed.
Regarding the geometry: It seems to me one leg is fixed in length (keybed
side), the brace distance is (appears to be) increased, so only one
additional side will be longer (maybe the lyre), but the angles will
change. It’s been many years, so not sure. ;) But thanks for getting me
thinking about it. I always explain to students at the University that
lid props need to form a right angle with the lid, that’s how you tell
you’re using the right prop hole/support, and then I casually throw in
that the music desk functions forms the hypotenuse. :) They love it!
Best,
Paul
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