Polish for Steinway/mahogany finish

[richa...@comcast.net]

What do you guys recommend these days, does Steinway still make that polish they used to make?

Rick Ucci
Uccipiano.com

[Joseph Garrett]

Rick,
Direct from my long time refinisher: "A soft cotton cloth dampened with water and smidgeon of soap. Wipe down and then immediately dry with a soft cotton cloth. Polishes attract dust! Polishes do nothing for the finish!(If the finish is dead...it's dead!)"
It works for my clients.<G> Avoid synthetic material clothes. Polyester is a whole different animal.
Of course, I don't have to tell you of the hazards of using Pledge! Yuck!
Best,
Joe


Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[paul bruesch]

On Apr 15, 2015 11:32 AM, "Joseph Garrett" <joega...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>

I've pledged to never use Pledge... on anything.

[John Formsma]

I worked for a bike shop for a while. Pledge works well for polishing bicycles. We used it to clean/polish bikes after assembly and before rolling them to the sales floor. Naturally, there is a polish "made specifically" for bikes, but it smells like Pledge and works just the same. But costs 3-4 times as much. :)

John Formsma, RPT

New Albany, MS

[Douglas Gregg]

My issue with Pledge is that if you want to refinish or add finish to
a surface heavily contaminated with Pledge, it will resist your best
efforts in many cases. It will cause fisheyes and holidays (areas
where finish does not adhere) and be a serious nuisance. Waxes can
generally be removed with solvents, not so much with silicones.

My preferred wax is Maguires Gold Class auto polish. No fancy Steinway
name, just a very good carnuba wax. It still is not cheap but goes on
well, polishes out to a high shine, and can be removed with thinner if
needed. I usually prefer the paste but the cream form works well too.

Doug Gregg

[Terry Farrell]

Do you put the Maguires on a satin lacquer finish? If so, what does it look like after? I know how it looks on a high gloss automobile, but on a satin finish?

Terry Farrell

[Douglas Gregg]

It works fine on a satin finish. Just be sure to apply it with the
brushed satin pattern and polish it in the same direction. Not much
polishing is required with the satin finish. It polishes out very
easily.

As with any polishing or wiping, circular or sweeping strokes can
damage the brushed satin pattern even with a damp cloth. Tiny bits of
grit will make marks.

Doug Gregg

[Joseph Garrett]

Geez! I'm really regretting having even mentioned Pledge! The crux of my post had to do with NOT using anything other than keeping the finish clean! Polishes, even the stuff like McGuires is a dust magnet. MOST people do not like to dust! So, let the damned stuff stay on the floor where the vacuum can collect it. That was the point of my post. Forgetaboutit with the Pledge! Please?<G>

Best,
Joe


Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com


-----Original Message-----

[Joseph Garrett]

Never polish or dust with a dry cloth. Dust "grit" is like sandpaper. That's the reason my finisher recommended using just a soft cotton cloth dampened with a touch of soft soap and water. The soap has a polishing effect and does not become a dust magnet like polishes and waxes. Simple and easy to do. Waxes do nothing to "preserve the wood" or "beautify the wood" or any of the other brain wash marketing ploys in this regard. Plain old soap and water is best. ...unless we're talking a French Polish or Polyester! Those require special approaches imo.<G>

Best,
Joe


Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com


-----Original Message-----
>From: Douglas Gregg <class...@gmail.com>
>Sent: Apr 15, 2015 5:26 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Polish for Steinway/mahogany finish
>

>It works fine on a satin finish. Just be sure to apply it with the
>brushed satin pattern and polish it in the same direction. Not much
>polishing is required with the satin finish. It polishes out very
>easily.
>
>As with any polishing or wiping, circular or sweeping strokes can
>damage the brushed satin pattern even with a damp cloth. Tiny bits of
>grit will make marks.
>
>Doug Gregg
>
>On 4/15/15, Terry Farrell <farrellpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Do you put the Maguires on a satin lacquer finish? If so, what does it look
>> like after? I know how it looks on a high gloss automobile, but on a satin
>> finish?
>>
>> Terry Farrell
>>
>> On Apr 15, 2015, at 7:37 PM, Douglas Gregg wrote:
>>

[Mark Potter]

I'm 100% with Joe on this one.  A finisher goes to great extremes to get just the right manipulation of the finish to achieve the desired feel/sheen/look. If you've done it, you know what I mean.  For someone to come in afterwards and apply ANY kind of wax is going to change ALL of this.  With no upside.  It is something that now needs periodic replenishing/rejuvenating, whereas the finish itself, as Joe rightly points out, merely needs to be kept clean to adequately do its job for decades.  If after 20-30 years it needs rubbed out again for visual consistency, then hey, rub it out again. 

Why anyone would put wax of any kind on a well-executed finish is beyond me. It's like splashing on more perfume instead of taking a shower ;).  Imo the only thing it achieves is a distortion of the desired look, plus the requirement for more maintenance.  Don't do it.

Mark Potter

West Jefferson, OH

[Joseph Garrett]

Thanks Mark. I spend a lot of time educating my clients in how to take care of their piano. I try to make it easy for them. When they've tried the damp soft cotton cloth thing a lot will comment how little "dusting" they have to do and really appreciate it.

 I also make a deal with them: They take care of the outside dust AND the inside dust is MINE. I'll take care of it.<G> Because it takes extra effort, on our part, to clean and keep clean the insides of their pianos, clients appreciate that extra care and are willing to pay a bit more for the SERVICE.<G> It's a win/win situation. A lot of clients expect me to keep their piano clean inside, even on the first visit when there are a ton of other issues to take care of as well.<G> It's part of the job.

Best,

Joe

[Ron Nossaman]

Generally, I think the less stuff smeared on a piano both inside and
out, the better. But there are times. I had a piano in the shop that had
been through a tornado. Full of broken glass and bird feathers, it was
covered with gunk of some sort all over. Pureed opossum, maybe. I tried
soap and water, alcohol, window cleaner, and various other cleaning
materials I use on plates and such. No good. Nothing touched it. I
finally resorted to Meguiars Mirror Glaze, which cleaned it up easily
and left a nice dust free surface - in MY shop! Polyester, Steinway C.

I've also, seen a poor brand spanking new Yamaha grand that had been
slimed in a church sanctuary by the custodian. Olde English is good for
furniture, right?
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Yup to all of it, ...well...sorta! Not the Olde English tho.

Best,
Joe


Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com


-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
>Sent: Apr 15, 2015 6:17 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Polish for Steinway/mahogany finish
>

[Douglas Gregg]

I have been an antique furniture restorer and auto and motorcycle
finisher for more than 55 years. (My mother was a collector of
antiques and I did much of the refinishing when needed) I am also a
very active member in the Woodworkers Group on line that consists of
fine antique furniture restorers including museum restorers working at
the Smithsonian institute museums. They have no problem using fine
paste wax on museum pieces.

I have refinished antiques with only linseed oil sealer and multiple
coats of paste wax and they are in my house still after 55 years and
not collecting any more dust than anything else. It is a great
misconception that wax attracts dust. Oils and liquid furniture
"polishes" that do not dry CAN attract dust because they are indeed
wet. Good carnuba wax is dry and does add protection. I don't
recommend lemon oil, old English oil finish or any of a hundred or
more liquid and spray polishes. However I do apply a final finish of
paste wax on my French polished pieces just as has been done for
centuries, as the final step. There is nothing more delicate than a
high gloss French polish job and the wax does protect it. Lacquer,
polyester, varnish, etc can benefit from occasional paste wax
protection too.



The following is a good explanation of household liquid furniture
"treatments" vs paste wax. I completely agree. This is from the
Master's Touch Furniture Restoration Service.
http://furniturerepair.net/tips.htm

Quote:
With all the sprays, polishes, oils, cleaners, and waxes available
today, its no wonder that this is the most asked question by far. My
response is always the same; "Do you just want a shine or do you want
protection also"? Spray-on polish and oils, "time savers", give a
quick temporary shine in just minutes, but that's all you get. The
reason they "shine" is because they are WET. This "wet look" may
produce a nice shine but offers little or no protection. These
products became popular in the late 1940s and have increased in
popularity ever since. TV commercials showing a house wife using
product X on a dull table top, followed by her smiling beautiful face
in the reflection gave proof of the effortless shine their product
would produce. Well, that was nothing but a good marketing ploy to
boost product sales. What house wife, even today, would not want to
save a lot of time and good old fashion elbow grease? What they did
not tell you, was that the silicone oils and petroleum distillates in
their product would actually cause harm to your finish over time. In
the late 60s and early 70s refinishing shops made a lot of money
refinishing hundreds of table tops when their finish softened and
turned into a sticky, gooey mess. These products are much improved
today and can be good for the occasional quickie just before guest
arrive, but prolonged use can still leave a gooey mess and still no
real protection. It is easy to tell if a customer has been using these
kind of polishes. You can make swirl marks in the wet oil with your
fingers, or lift a cloth place mat from the table top to reveal a dull
spot the same shape of the mat (the oil was absorbed by the mat).
Because the surface is wet, it will actually attract and hold more
dust and pollutants from the air.

Lets take a moment and consider just what a finish is designed to do.
First and foremost it is to seal the wood. Sealing the wood protects
the wood from moisture changes, spills, stains, and surface abrasion.
Second it is used to enhance the beauty of the wood grain. Have you
ever heard someone tell how their produce "feeds" the wood. Unless
your furniture is unfinished, or the finish has deteriorated, there is
absolutely no way any polish, oil or wax is going to get through the
finish to the wood. Another common misconception is that wood
furniture is "alive" and need to "breathe," so don't seal the pores
with wax. Wood furniture is not "alive" it can not "breathe" nor does
it need to be "nourished" or "fed'' with oily polishes. Just the very
opposite is the truth! Continual changes in humidity, not the lack of
"feeding", cause un-sealed wood to crack, warp, swell, shrink and glue
joints to loosen.

Paste Wax
has been used for centuries as a finishing material itself and a
finish protector. If used properly, paste wax will provide a thin,
hard, lasting finish. Waxes dry hard so they do not smear and attract
dust and dirt. Paste waxing typically lasts 3-5 years, depending on
how much the furniture is used and how many coats are applied. Table
tops and chair arms are an exception, generally needing to be waxed
once a year, due to the extra wear they receive. Many people,
especially antique lovers, prefer the soft sheen provided by paste
wax. Also, waxes do not interfere with future refinishing like
silicone polishes most often do. Paste wax is hard work. It will take
4-6 hours to paste wax a dining room set and if done properly will not
need waxing again for years. It requires effort, but you won't obtain
a more durable, beautiful protection than paste wax. Remember, the wax
protects the finish, the finish protects the wood. To dust or clean,
just wipe with a soft damp, lint free cloth.

Doug Gregg
Classic Piano Doc

[Ron Nossaman]

On 4/15/2015 8:35 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> Yup to all of it, ...well...sorta! Not the Olde English tho.

Gee, you think not? Even on a new Yamaha polyester finish? It gave it a
whole new look, but it took forever to de-slime the poor thing. They did
all get a valuable and expensive lesson though, so some good was done in
a backhanded sort of way.

Reminded me of a crew chief I knew in England who waxed his camouflaged
F4, stem to stern. Made that sucker SHINE!
Ron N

[Mark Potter]

On a new polyester finish, I say take a fire hose fed by whatever magic concoction will remove the slime.  You done good, Ron.  You are basically cleaning glass, so unless you start shooting gravel or buckshot at it the finish will remain unharmed.  And as far as I know, 'Mirror Glaze" is merely a fine polishing compound, rather than a wax. A polishing compound does not leave a surface film, it merely cleans and polishes

However, since the thread was/is 'Steinway/mahogany finish', I think the protocols are different.

Doug, here is where I have a problem with your well defined approach to using wax;  you say (quoting directly):

"Paste waxing typically lasts 3-5 years, depending on
how much the furniture is used and how many coats are applied. Table
tops and chair arms are an exception, generally needing to be waxed

once a year, due to the extra wear they receive.<snip> Paste wax is hard work.

In a best scenario that you describe you are talking a 3-5 year lifespan for the wax, sometimes as low as 1year.  And you mention it is hard work, which, when done properly, it certainly is!  I would add that it is particularly easy to do a poor job of this, especially with a piano, having to work around case felt, hardware, difficult to reach surfaces, etc. It takes skill to properly apply paste wax, mostly borne of experience, like everything else. 

Maybe your clientele is vastly different from mine, but I just cannot imagine ANY of my customers a) properly re-waxing their piano every 3-5 years; or b) paying me to do it.  It is exactly this transient nature of paste wax that, for me, makes it a very poor choice long-term for a piano finish.  Sure, it looks good heading out of the shop, but long-term I feel it is doing a disservice to the finish, AND to the customer.  I am happy to agree to disagree with you, as we all have our methods that would seem to work for us, but I still agree with Joe: just keep the finish clean and it will last for decades with little work or skill required.  

[Douglas Gregg]

The comment about paste wax being such hard work was from the quoted
text from another site. I do agree it is a bit of work but I have
found the Maguires gold class goes on much more easily than some
others. You can save a lot of work by doing small areas at a time.
With that method, an hour should be enough to do even a large grand
piano. I will agree that few piano owners will repeat the process.
However, I wax most pianos before they go out my door and unless they
are abused, they don't need rewaxing for a long time. The quoted text
was talking about tables and chairs that often get a lot more wear
than pianos. Tables get wiped down a couple times a day (often with
detergent on a sponge) and homework is done on them, etc. Pianos don't
usually get abused like that. I find that a good waxing makes a piano
much more presentable and is worth the effort.

Doug Gregg