Re: [pianotech] Very sluggish Steinway hammers with teflon bushins

[Joseph Garrett]

Terry,

Let me tell you why Teflon Bushings failed.<G> The Teflon Bushing is inserted into a hole, in wood. When the humidity goes down the hole gets smaller. The smaller hole squeezes the Teflon Bushing so that the action centers, (ALL OF THEM<G>) are tight. When the humidity is up, the hole in the wood gets bigger! This causes ALL of the bushings to click! No elixir is going to help. The only true repair is to replace the wippens, Shanks and Flanges and the Damper Levers. K?<G> The best thing you can do is inform your client of this situation and let them decide if a global replacement of parts is worth it on their "Steinway".

Best,

Joe

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Peterson
Sent: Apr 10, 2015 4:45 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [pianotech] Very sluggish Steinway hammers with teflon bushins

Almost all the hammers are so tight that they stay up after lifting them even slightly. Any way to get them moving freely, short of repinning or replacing with felt bushings? I've always had 100% success with isopropyl to shrink felt bushings, so I'm wondering if I applied it to the flanges right where the teflon bushings are, if it would sufficiently shrink the wood flanges that surround the teflon bushing, taking enough pressure of the bushing to allow the hammer to move freely, without also causing the bushing to become too loose in the flange. 

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Ed Foote]

Ed Foote RPT

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Garrett
Terry,

Let me tell you why Teflon Bushings failed.<G> The Teflon Bushing is inserted into a hole, in wood. When the humidity goes down the hole gets smaller. The smaller hole squeezes the Teflon Bushing so that the action centers, (ALL OF THEM<G>) are tight. When the humidity is up, the hole in the wood gets bigger! This causes ALL of the bushings to click! No elixir is going to help. The only true repair is to replace the wippens, Shanks and Flanges and the Damper Levers. K?<G> The best thing you can do is inform your client of this situation and let them decide if a global replacement of parts is worth it on their "Steinway".

Best,
Joe

Greetings,
There is a way that I have used, successfully, on numerous Teflon actions equipped with the larger, ribbed bushings. The smaller ones don't justify work, but I have rarely seen them tighten up. What the hole does, in relation to the bushings depends on the moisture content of the wood when the hole was drilled and the bushings reamed to fit the pins. Since wood changes across the grain,the hole will either be elongated or round, depending on the season. This will distort the Teflon. Rendering the wood around the holes dimensionally stable is required for this material to function, and when you do, they function better than felt, as you can bring the friction down to1-2 grams with shank stability far in excess of wood bushings. They also last longer.
The fastest way to permanently restore a Teflon action is to punch all the bushings out, generously wick thin CA around the holes, let dry, re-install the bushings, and repin with sufficiently oversized pins so that you can ream all of them to the same size. Bushings are cheap and starting with a new set allows faster re-assemby. I go up in pin size sufficient to be tight in all the unbushed holes to simplify the process. It takes too much time to custom fit each and every pin. If you have several flanges with holes too large, you can size them with a small amount of CA. Total time in my records is about 4 hours. There is usually significant traveling and spacing to be done after this process, but I have had Teflon shanks that went through two sets of hammers after this treatment with no clicking,and amazing consistency in the pinning. The whippen, jack, and rep levers don't need so much care, though you can often simply push their pins in and out of their bushings and see quite a loosening effect.
This process allows the tech to sell their time, rather than losing a customer after having told them they need a total action replacement, (which will often send them looking for alternatives, elsewhere.)
Regards,

[Joseph Garrett]

Ed,
Most imaginative and innovative.<G> If it works as stated, it certainly is a viable alternative. The next time I run into a teflon action, I'll give it a try.<G>
However, I do question the time(s) quoted. I cannot imagine taking all the parts off of an action frame, unpinning all of the parts, popping out all of the teflon bushings, wicking CA glue to all of the holes, reinserting all of the bushings, reaming and repinning all of the parts and then reinstalling all of the parts, aligning and doing a touchup regulation, in just 4 hours.
Please tell me how that is accomplished.
Regards,
Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[David Skolnik]

>From: 'Ed Foote' via pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
>Sent: Apr 11, 2015 5:17 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Very sluggish Steinway hammers with teflon bushins

Total time in my records is about 4 hours.

Ed Foote RPT

At 02:52 PM 4/11/2015, Joe G wrote:

Ed,
Most imaginative and innovative.<G> If it works as stated, it certainly is a viable alternative. The next time I run into a teflon action, I'll give it a try.<G>
However, I do question the time(s) quoted. I cannot imagine taking all the parts off of an action frame, unpinning all of the parts, popping out all of the teflon bushings, wicking CA glue to all of the holes, reinserting all of the bushings, reaming and repinning all of the parts and then reinstalling all of the parts, aligning and doing a touchup regulation, in just 4 hours.
Please tell me how that is accomplished.
Regards,
Joe

Clearly, he uses his hands AND Footes.

reluctantly,
David Skolnik
Hastings on Hudson, NY

---

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[Ed Foote]

Greetings,
The four hours refers to the time required to remove the shanks, repin them, and then have the shanks back on the action. It doesn't include touching up the regulation or traveling, which, I think would be required no matter what shape the shanks were in to start. I can spend all day traveling and spacing….

The electric screwdriver will take 88 flanges off in about 4 minutes, maybe eight if you don't have a fast approach. I take all the screws out,then take all the flanges off and put them in the tray. Punching all the pins and bushings out of all flanges takes about 20 minutes, (I use the pinning tool to also knock out the bushings as soon as the pin is out, saving me picking up another tool. It ruins most of the bushings, but I am going to replace them, so it doesn't matter. The wicking of the glue takes about 10 if you hold the shanks, five or six at a time, with the holes at the bottom and do it over a scrap so spillage isn't a problem, I don't worry about too much CA on the holes,since given the cost of time vs the cost of CA, I don't try to be careful, I just want the wood to be rendered impervious to moisture, and it does't matter how much goes on as long as the holes are well wetted. I do this with a small fan blowing across the workbench so the fumes don't reach my face. It helps to give them a knock on the side of the bench so that there isn't any droplets left. I originally dipped them in Brookstone's "Penetrating Epoxy", but don't keep that in stock and CA works just as well.
Re-installing the bushings takes about 25 minutes, (about 15 seconds each), and the pinning then goes fast because I used a Dupont straight-fluted reamer that sizes all the holes for a full size over what was in there. That usually is enough to make all the unbushed holes work. The reamer is long enough to push through to the other side, turned one time, pulled back to ream the near side for another turn, and then the pin goes in. I use normal pins pushed flush against the shank, and then clip them all when I have finished the full set. I use a set of brass lined jeweler's pliers to install the pins,and then press them in by pushing them against a brass block.

Speed comes from :
1. having a tray (with wax paper on the bottom to obviate gluing the parts to the tray), that all the shanks go in in order as I remove them
2. doing all of one operation to the whole set, using the factory bushing install tool over a large box of bushings so I don't have to hunt to pick them up,
3. pinning from a tray with a handful of pins laying in it, using one size pin that is large enough to fit all the unbushed holes.
4. pressing the pins in against a flat piece of brass rather than trying to center the pinning tool,
5. clipping them all in one pass. I do this to avoid picking up a tool more than once in the whole process.

I use the longer pins because they are easier to pick up and more readily available in stock. I work over a large enough tray so that dropping things doesn't really cost time. I use a strong light and pretty strong reading glasses. I clip the pins so that the clipped end cannot touch the Teflon by pressing the shank sideways on the flange before I clip. This keeps the burr away from the material by about half the side to side tolerance of the shank/flange assembly. I replace with an electric screwdriver that has a torque setting on it to prevent stripping out the rail.

I haven't done a set of these in some time, I may be slower now, but the system allowed me to make profound changes, (and profound profits), in a lot of Teflon actions. Some details will slow this down, such as hammer rail felt that disintegrates, odd sized screws that have to be kept in place, broken flanges, etc.

Ed Foote RPT

-----Original Message-----

From: David Skolnik <davids...@optonline.net>
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Apr 11, 2015 2:20 pm
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Very sluggish Steinway hammers with teflon bushins


>From: 'Ed Foote' via pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
>Sent: Apr 11, 2015 5:17 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Very sluggish Steinway hammers with teflon bushins

Total time in my records is about 4 hours.
Ed Foote RPT
At 02:52 PM 4/11/2015, Joe G wrote:
Ed,
Most imaginative and innovative.<G> If it works as stated, it certainly is a viable alternative. The next time I run into a teflon action, I'll give it a try.<G>
However, I do question the time(s) quoted. I cannot imagine taking all the parts off of an action frame, unpinning all of the parts, popping out all of the teflon bushings, wicking CA glue to all of the holes, reinserting all of the bushings, reaming and repinning all of the parts and then reinstalling all of the parts, aligning and doing a touchup regulation, in just 4 hours.
Please tell me how that is accomplished.
Regards,
Joe

Clearly, he uses his hands AND Footes.

reluctantly,
David Skolnik
Hastings on Hudson, NY

------------------------------------------------------------

[Joseph Garrett]

Ed,
Thank you for the detailed explanation. You certainly have it down to a true "science". (And I thought my work processes were good.....Not!) I'll have to work on attaining that level of action parts efficiency. I say that with all sincerity. Wow! Which "pinning tool" do you use?

The only thing that comes to mind is that IF the wood hole is elongated at the time you apply the CA, wouldn't that remain? Or does it not matter because you are setting the hole condition permanently with the CA and then any bushing distortion is taken care of by the reaming in the process of repinning? I think I've answered my own question.<G>

All of this is assuming that any sluggishness is confined to the hammer flanges. What about the jacks, balanciers and support flanges? Not to mention the back action.

As you've pointed out there are those variables that make for different times for said "project". I'm just trying to get a feel for it all, so to speak.
Again, thank you for taking the time to explain all of this.
Best Regards,

Joe


Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com


-----Original Message-----

[Ed Foote]

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Garrett

You certainly have it down to atrue "science". (And I thought my work processes were good.....Not!) I'll haveto work on attaining that level of action parts efficiency. I say that with allsincerity. Wow! Which "pinning tool" do you use?

I use the scissor type because they are lighter, (and because I bought them over the counter at Tuner's Supply in 1975, after trying about a dozen that they had in stock). And, if it matters, I have done a lot of pinning. I have always kept the scraps and old pins from each job, putting them in a box when the small compartment in my pinning rig fills up, and that box now weighs more than a set of tuning pins…..

[David Skolnik]

thanks Ed -
comment and question -
I am one who seems to be particularly sensitive to the CA fumes.  At this point, it doesn't take much exposure to close up my nasal passages for a few days.  For me, the fan blowing across the work (me being upwind),  works, as long as there is another fan to draw the fumes away (and ideally, out) of the work space. Otherwise, the 'turbulated' air just overs about.   Every time that I try to convince myself that I'm just being too 'sensitive', I'm reminded that I really am.

Question - I'm not clear why you are going with oversized, unfinished pins, unless the action has been previously repinned with larger pins.  In the original post of this thread, the problem is excessive friction: bushings need to be reamed.  If this were done mindfully: a sharp fluted reamer, with target friction dependent upon the ambient humidity (if in Summer, aim at lower, but not 'clicky' friction; in Winter, tighter but not overly: 4-ish swings?)  Over a couple of seasons, you'll be able to address the those that remain extreme, in either direction.   If the largest finished pins available (.051"?) were tight in the bird's-eye, would you use them?

Other comments:
- I've done a fair amount of teflon work, over the years, and have found that speed of execution does not always produce the desired consistency, which is only to say that, were I to try your method, it would probably take me somewhat to considerably longer. 
- I would (could) not do a whole set with the plier extractor... it would cramp my delicate hand (see above re: how sensitive I am :))  I would either bench-mount one of my center-pin extract/install tools (ex. Schaff 5501) or try again to find the, now hard to locate bench-mounted lever extractor, and modify it to be able to easily do all three operations: de-pin; de-bush; reinstall.  More steps, probably more time, but easier on hand. 

In a follow-up post to Joe G, you said:

I have always kept the scraps and old pins from each job, putting them in a box when the small compartment in my pinning rig fills up,  and that box now weighs more than a set of tuning pins…..

I know that asking the question probably reveals more about my lack of imagination than anything else, but  - Why?

As Joe said, thanks for the detailed account.  I know I'll be referring back to it.

David Skolnik
Hastings on Hudson, NY

---

[Ed Foote]

-----Original Message-----
From: David Skolnik < Question - I'm not clear why you are going with oversized, unfinished pins, unless the action has been previously repinned with larger pins.  In the original post of this thread, the problem is excessive friction: bushings need to be reamed.  If this were done mindfully: a sharp fluted reamer, with target friction dependent upon the ambient humidity (if in Summer, aim at lower, but not 'clicky' friction; in Winter, tighter but not overly: 4-ish swings?)  Over a couple of seasons, you'll be able to address the those that remain extreme, in either direction.   If the largest finished pins available (.051"?) were tight in the bird's-eye, would you use them?<<

My goal was to create permanent,maintenance-free, low-friction, quiet, consistency in the hammer line. These were performance pianos, on stage and in studios, and because of either basic insecurity or vanity, I didn't want to deal with performers complaints. I find that Teflon pinning isn't stable unless the wood is, and treating the wood is,( imo), best done without the bushings in there. I suppose one could wick in the CA with bushings in place, but the time involved would increase, and it would only take a few glued-up bushings to really slow things down. I know, from sad, frustrating, eye-rolling experience, that they are difficult to remove after being glued in.
Factory pinning of the Teflon often had several sizes in them, and it was faster to go larger than any of them, i.e. I didn't want to test fit pins to find out where I was on an individual flange basis, which is a large time-soak. Thus, I determined a size I to which I could ream and do them all with one reamer and one pin size. Also, the early factory pinning was often very lop-sided in that one side would be clicking, the other tight. Sometimes the bushing would go from tight to loose after the pin was taken out and reinserted, with bits of Teflon falling out, so I had a low opinion of the factory pinning, all around. Using new bushings was just faster than trying to deal with all that. The oversize approach paved over these differences in the unbushed holes and the Dupont reamers give better results if they are actually cutting into some small amount. It may also have been that the larger size pins fit the particular reamer better than other sizes. (I'm not sure if the correct word is "chasing" or "reaming" but we all know what I mean). I don't' remember ever getting up into the largest sizes of pins, I think I did one set at 21 or 21 1/2, but most of the time I remember using either 20 or 20 1/2. Loose holes were given a small touch of CA and then blown through to minimize excess in the holes.

>> Other comments:
- I've done a fair amount of teflon work, over the years, and have found that speed of execution does not always produce the desired consistency, which is only to say that, were I to try your method, it would probably take me somewhat to considerably longer. <<

I had a school full of this stuff, and found that the more standardized I went, the faster and more consistent I was. Like a golfer working on one swing, I was trying to make a machine out of myself, and the feel of the reamer, the angle of insertion, etc., all seemed to get faster as I got more consistent. Quite a few mindless hours spent on the bench with that...

>> In a follow-up post to Joe G, you said:
I have always kept the scraps and old pins from each job, putting them in a box when the small compartment in my pinning rig fills up,  and that box now weighs more than a set of tuning pins…..
I know that asking the question probably reveals more about my lack of imagination than anything else, but  - Why? <<

I made a pinning box to hold all the supplies and tools I use, the inside of the top is covered in dark velvet like a jewelers tray. The top detaches and I do all my pinning over it, keeping the cut ends and old pins from scattering around the shop. After I finish, I just poured the collected detritus into a box instead of the trash. I never said I wasn't obsessive-compulsive, nor obtusely focussed on arcane manifestations of my past. Even though trophy hunters, (with heads of antelopes, elephants, and assorted ruminants on their walls) would sneer at such a small collection, it kept me aware of my work bench history, as well as silently providing legitimate explanations for two carpal tunnel operations, squinty eyes, and poor posture.
Regards,