Player piano question

[falco...@comcast.net]

Good afternoon,

I was wondering if anyone might help me through a quandary. I have limited experience with player pianos (pneumatic system) and was called to check a problem. The piano is a Kurtzmann from the 1920's.

The piano has been electrified, and there is a vacuum regulator (actually, it's a dimmer switch, but I digress). When turned on, there is movement, but very little. I have checked for any leaks around the bellows, expression pneumatics, etc. Checked the tempo governor.

What happens is that there is sufficient vacuum to propel the motor. There is, however, not enough to produce sound. The roll travels over the tracker bar, but nada. I checked the transmission, and re-roll. Everything seems to be in order. I checked all linkage, and everything seems ok. It simply won't play.

I was short on time, as a Massachusetts snow storm was blowing, so I didn't pull the stack. I'm wondering if maybe there's something I missed.

I was hoping that maybe Duaine, or someone with more experience might have some insight.

Thanks in advance!,
Marshall Connolly


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[John Ashcraft]

Marshall,

Did the hammers move at all?

--John Ashcraft

[Ron Nossaman]

On 12/17/2013 4:29 PM, falco...@comcast.net wrote:

> What happens is that there is sufficient vacuum to propel the motor.
> There is, however, not enough to produce sound.

There is a cutoff valve that shuts off vacuum to the stack on reroll. If
it's controlled by a pneumatic valve, the tubing to the transmission may
be leaking. If it's mechanical, it may be disconnected, or it may just
not work. Tightening screws (gently, they're most likely stripped) to
try to make gaskets seal may work. I've seen pouches shrink in winter
dryness and float valves enough to kill the system when everything else
is fine, but there's no field repair for that. That's a tear down and
redo. It's either a cheap and easy fix, or a very involved and expensive
one. The in between things are rare. Altogether likely is that you may
well have a player that needs rebuilt. Realistically, your best bet at
the moment is to round up someone who IS familiar with pneumatic players
(assuming you have someone locally, which is a long shot) and take him
or her along to chase it as you watch and learn.

Good luck. Players are a different world from pianos.
Ron N

[Duaine Hechler]

If you haven't already, try a turn the "dimmer" switch up - to make the suction box go faster and create more vacuum.

If the suction pump is all the way up and still nothing, then that opens all kinds of cans of worms - which would have
to be diagnosed starting with the basics. Some of which Ron touched on.

Duaine

--
Duaine Hechler
Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ - Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding
(314) 838-5587 / dahe...@att.net / www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com
Home & Business user of Linux - 13 years

[Larry Fisher RPT]

Put the tempo at zero, transmission in forward, and cover all the tracker holes with a piece of paper.  The dimmer control ........... turn it up to full blast.   

Was the piano moved recently??  If so, pump the pedals along with the pump turned all the way up.  (with all the holes covered, transmission in forward and tempo at zero)  What this does is close all the valves if everything is working OK.  Sometimes they end up in limbo during a move and there isn't enough vacuum to pull them to the closed position.

Don't work the transposer.  If someone has, and the rubber tubing going to the tracker has never been replaced, you'll now have 90 lengths of tubing that are severed.  Look under the tracker bar with a flashlight and see if you can see the tubing under there.  Each hole in the TB has one that passes through the back of the spoolbox.  If you see cracks, or missing pieces of tubing, it will be loaded with ciphers once you apply vacuum sufficient enough to overcome the massive losses of so many notes being activated.

Re-roll  ........  every player has a cut out valve.  Work the transmission controller and watch what it does down below.  Typically the cut out is about 2 and a half inches by maybe 5 inches long and an inch and a half tall.  It's mounted on the bass end of the bellows assembly typically but can be in the middle or slightly right of center.  I don't believe I've seen one on the right but it's been awhile.    Out of it comes a sizable hose to the bass end of the stack  ... typically.  If the leather nuts have slipped, the looped rod will be sliding along the controller rod making the function of the cut off valve non-functional.  Simply put, the push rod or controller rod has to be moved to activate the valve.

Some players use a pneumatic to accomplish the cut out function.  Small tubing delivers the vacuum to the pneumatic that creates the cut out effect.  Check to make sure that tubing is still attached.  This pneumatic is mounted on the bellows assembly and is by itself.  Pushing on it will create the effect of it's function. 

Check the large diameter twill covered hoses and make sure they're still attached to the under side of the stack from below.  There might be two of them .......  one for each end.

Tighten all the screws on the stack from the shelf on down.  (remove the fallboard so you can reach them all)  Pay particular attention to the screws that hold the valve chest cover on.  If faces you and has 30 screws or so holding it on.  The shelf is the platform that has the motor, spool box and auto tracker mounted on it.  Tightening screws on the stack has revitalized two players in my career.  The odds are slim.

If it's been twenty years since the thing played all the rubber products are so old and stiff it won't play again until it's been totally rebuilt.

I've chosen to run away from these pianos as fast as I can.  It's cheaper.

Lar

[Ron Nossaman]

On 12/18/2013 8:50 AM, Larry Fisher RPT wrote:

> I've chosen to run away from these pianos as fast as I can. It's cheaper.

Not me. I'd be happy to take them on. But if I do, we'll be doing a
thorough rebuild on both the piano and the player. This typically causes
the player owner to run away from ME as fast as they can. That's my
preference if they are looking for a half way patch job, which is almost
universally the case. "After all, it's just a toy", I've been told. Not
mine! It's an instrument, and we'll make an honest attempt to do it
right, or not at all. Not interested in either servicing or patching up
junk, which eliminates almost all player work.
Ron N

[Stephen Grattan]

Amen, Ron.  I also will not do patch up jobs.  I too frequently am called upon to properly rebuild another's half jobs.

 

Steve Grattan

[Ron Nossaman]

On 12/18/2013 12:31 PM, Stephen Grattan wrote:
> I too frequently am
> called upon to properly rebuild another's half jobs.

> *Steve Grattan*

I don't get those anymore, but it used to be continual when every random
hobbyist on the planet was a player rebuilder and threw away original
parts to replace them with PPCo's neoprene, polyurethane, and plastic
stuff. Oddly, they usually didn't work for long afterward, if they ever
did. My answer was always the same. Sure, I'll fix it, but it'll cost my
full rebuild price plus whatever it takes to repair what the last guy did.
Ron N

[Debra Legg]

When I used to do a lot of player rebuild work I would routinely charge X% more for rebuilding one that someone else had messed with.  Most of them were RWE (Rife With Elmers).  I gave up doing partial jobs early on...no matter how much the customer begged.

Deb

[Ron Nossaman]

On 12/18/2013 2:45 PM, Debra Legg wrote:
> Most of
> them were RWE (Rife With Elmers).

PVCE here (#320). It's flexible, right? No problem slopping it all over
because - it's flexible.

> I gave up doing partial jobs early
> on...no matter how much the customer begged.

Like "It's mostly done already. Can't possibly take much to get it working."
Ron N

[Debra Legg]

"They (whoever they is) told me it just needed a new hose."

or...

"The bellows might have a little hole that you need to patch."

Deb