Buzzing soundboard splits

[da...@piano.plus.com]

My customer is looking to sell his 1898 Bluthner 6'3" grand. i tuned it a
year ago and today, and it had held up quite well. But there are some old
soundboard splits and one of em is currently buzzing (improves if you lie
under piano and push on soundboard. i have not held out any hope of a
quick fix, but promised to ask opinions on here. i habe told him that
addressing such issues would normally be part of a rebuild. Any magic
methods with epoxy or anything?

[John Ross]

Drill

[Joseph Garrett]

David (whoever you are<G>)
The soundboard is toast! Another example of someone not realizing that fact and thinking that pianos are eternal~! Sheesh! And of course, he/she is going to sell that POS to some other smuck to perpetuate the issues!
Joe

-----Original Message-----
>From: da...@piano.plus.com
>Sent: Apr 3, 2014 4:15 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits
>
>My customer is looking to sell his 1898 Bluthner 6'3" grand. i tuned it a
>year ago and today, and it had held up quite well. But there are some old
>soundboard splits and one of em is currently buzzing (improves if you lie
>under piano and push on soundboard. i have not held out any hope of a
>quick fix, but promised to ask opinions on here. i habe told him that
>addressing such issues would normally be part of a rebuild. Any magic
>methods with epoxy or anything?
>

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Joseph Garrett]

Right John! Make it a 3' foot one! Drill the entire dead soundboard out of the damned piano and be done with it!

Sheesh!

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: John Ross
Sent: Apr 3, 2014 4:40 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits

Drill
On Apr 3, 2014, at 8:15 AM, da...@piano.plus.com wrote:

> My customer is looking to sell his 1898 Bluthner 6'3" grand. i tuned it a
> year ago and today, and it had held up quite well. But there are some old
> soundboard splits and one of em is currently buzzing (improves if you lie
> under piano and push on soundboard. i have not held out any hope of a
> quick fix, but promised to ask opinions on here. i habe told him that
> addressing such issues would normally be part of a rebuild. Any magic
> methods with epoxy or anything?
>

[William Benjamin]

Joe,

 

I have never done it or knowng of it, but could one reach between the strings and apply a few drops of Hot Stuff.   Of course, I am talking about just when the condicions are right.

 

William

[Joseph Garrett]

William,

The simple fact is: If the soundboard has cracks and buzzes due to those cracks, the sound board is trash! (many times the sound board is trash even without cracks!<G>)

 There is no viable repair for that condition contrary to ALL that our mentors/teachers/prodders told us back in the day! Yes, we can make the buzzes stop, but we cannot make the soundboard a viable mechanism of sound enhancement. Why is that concept so hard to accept in our industry?!!!

Joe

[John Ross]

Sorry the message was incomplete when sent.

Have since reconsidered what I was going to say.

John Ross

Windsor, Nova Scotia

[Ron Nossaman]

On 4/3/2014 10:21 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> William,
>
> The simple fact is: If the soundboard has cracks and buzzes due to those
> cracks, the sound board is trash! (many times the sound board is trash
> even without cracks!<G>)

Yes, correct.

> There is no viable repair for that condition contrary to ALL that our
> mentors/teachers/prodders told us back in the day! Yes, we can make the
> buzzes stop, but we cannot make the soundboard a viable mechanism of
> sound enhancement. Why is that concept so hard to accept in our industry?!!!

Just like seating strings, that 7° tuning pin back angle, and a hundred
other things. Once people have been "taught" something, they will never
learn better no matter how much superior information or even
demonstration is given them. They will absolutely refuse to learn
different than they were taught forever. Maybe a really generous
multiple application of CA would fix THEM. I think it's worth a try.
Ron N

[Brian Trout]

Joe, I think you hit on what it will likely come down to.  The board has problems that are not likely to be addressed, at least by the current owner, who probably wants a minimal fix to the buzz they hear.
 
So the idea that "we can make the buzzes stop" might be about all that would be required for the current customer to be a happy camper, at least until there are more buzzes. 
 
Some will depend on just where the buzzes are coming from.  A little glue in the right places, often where a rib meets the soundboard can shut them up for a while.  The crack itself might not be making any of the "buzzing noise" at all.  That's doesn't really fix anything but the buzzes.  And the soundboard is still junk, even if it doesn't buzz.
 

 

---

Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 11:21:22 -0400
From: joega...@earthlink.net

[Ron Nossaman]

On 4/3/2014 11:55 AM, Brian Trout wrote:
> Joe, I think you hit on what it will likely come down to. The board has
> problems that are not likely to be addressed, at least by the current
> owner, who probably wants a minimal fix to the buzz they hear.

Hit on? It's been pounded hard for years and years to everything except
positive effect. The owner definitely wants to just hide the noise to
unload the thing on the next guy, who in the universal ignorance of
pianos, will believe he's bought a treasure that can be made like new
for a couple of bucks. The keys all work, after all, so what could be
wrong? Just needs a little tune up.


> So the idea that "we can make the buzzes stop" might be about all that

> would be required for the current customer to be a happy camper, at
> least until there are more buzzes.

The next buzzes won't be his problem. They'll be the problem of whoever
he dumps the piano on, so he couldn't care less once he's unloaded it.

> Some will depend on just where the buzzes are coming from. A little
> glue in the right places, often where a rib meets the soundboard can
> shut them up for a while. The crack itself might not be making any of
> the "buzzing noise" at all. That's doesn't really fix anything but the
> buzzes. And the soundboard is still junk, even if it doesn't buzz.

What I don't understand is why a tech would want to be party to
something like this? I certainly wouldn't, and won't. I'd decline to
help the current owner rip the buyer off altogether, and learn to live
with the horror of missing out on the money I might have made doing it.
I turned down a similar job last week of hiding the really ugly problems
so they could sell the piano. Did it over the phone and didn't even have
to battle the guy over a service call fee to condemn his piano. Went
straight back to work in the shop instead, and it felt just fine.
There's still a better than even chance I'll hear from the new owner
wanting me to tune it since I'd rebuilt it and all, but I can inform him
over the phone as well.
Ron N

[Brian Trout]

Sorry Ron. No intention to offend or repeat excessively since this conversation has apparently happened so many times before.


> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 12:27:27 -0500
> From: rnos...@cox.net

> To: pian...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits
>

[Ron Nossaman]

On 4/3/2014 1:56 PM, Brian Trout wrote:
> Sorry Ron. No intention to offend or repeat excessively since this
> conversation has apparently happened so many times before.

No, I'm not offended, nor did I intend to offend. There's just two
eternal things here that go by over and over. One is that all soundboard
cracks, buzzes, and separated glue joints must be plugged and glued back
together, however wretched the soundboard condition is. The presumption
is that a repair has been made when the soundboard is in fact very very
dead and isn't brought back to life by the repair, so what's the point
of the repair? This is the major point that has been pounded for many
many years without making the point. I've seen soundboards that look
like corn cribs, patched together with screws, bolts, dowels, hot glue
guns, staples, wood putty, epoxy, tacks, veneer, and whittled to (sort
of) fit inlays. And every one of these travesties was done by a tech
that was paid by the owner to fix the soundboard, with the owner
thinking he got a fix. I couldn't tell looking at the results what the
tech was thinking.

The second is that we must do whatever the customer wants so they can
sell the piano, even though the repair didn't do more than hide the very
real problems and misrepresent the piano. Why would we do that?

Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Brian,

Let's just get the facts straight. The cracks are caused by trauma to the Wood! The cracks/buzzes are an indicator that the trauma has occurred. The trauma was/is crushed wood cells! There are some dubious techniques that will somewhat re-inflate the cells, but there is NOTHING that can Fix the damage! (See Del's PTJ article using Epoxy to add mass and some semblance of connectivity to the vibrating body of soundboards) 

 

Since we are constantly working with wood, I'm constantly amazed at how little "technicians" know about the properties of wood and how to work with it! Sheesh! Glue? CA? Epoxy? Hog snot? None will fix the real problem which is diminished capacity of the wood to be a SOUND BOARD!

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Trout
Sent: Apr 3, 2014 9:55 AM
To: "pian...@googlegroups.com"
Subject: RE: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits

Joe, I think you hit on what it will likely come down to. The board has problems that are not likely to be addressed, at least by the current owner, who probably wants a minimal fix to the buzz they hear.

So the idea that "we can make the buzzes stop" might be about all that would be required for the current customer to be a happy camper, at least until there are more buzzes.

Some will depend on just where the buzzes are coming from. A little glue in the right places, often where a rib meets the soundboard can shut them up for a while. The crack itself might not be making any of the "buzzing noise" at all. That's doesn't really fix anything but the buzzes. And the soundboard is still junk, even if it doesn't buzz.

Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 11:21:22 -0400
From: joega...@earthlink.net
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits






William,

The simple fact is: If the soundboard has cracks and buzzes due to those cracks, the sound board is trash! (many times the sound board is trash even without cracks!)

There is no viable repair for that condition contrary to ALL that our mentors/teachers/prodders told us back in the day! Yes, we can make the buzzes stop, but we cannot make the soundboard a viable mechanism of sound enhancement. Why is that concept so hard to accept in our industry?!!!

Joe


-----Original Message-----
From: William Benjamin
Sent: Apr 3, 2014 7:53 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits

Joe,



I have never done it or knowng of it, but could one reach between the strings and apply a few drops of Hot Stuff. Of course, I am talking about just when the condicions are right.



William









From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Garrett
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 10:24 AM

To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits

Right John! Make it a 3' foot one! Drill the entire dead soundboard out of the damned piano and be done with it!

Sheesh!

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: John Ross
Sent: Apr 3, 2014 4:40 AM

To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits

Drill
On Apr 3, 2014, at 8:15 AM, da...@piano.plus.com wrote:

> My customer is looking to sell his 1898 Bluthner 6'3" grand. i tuned it a
> year ago and today, and it had held up quite well. But there are some old
> soundboard splits and one of em is currently buzzing (improves if you lie
> under piano and push on soundboard. i have not held out any hope of a
> quick fix, but promised to ask opinions on here. i habe told him that
> addressing such issues would normally be part of a rebuild. Any magic
> methods with epoxy or anything?
>





Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com
Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Euphonious Thumpe]

You can go all over the soundboard fixing loose ribs and board edges rubbing, and hopefully get rid of the buzzes, but you'd better charge by the hour, with no guarantees. And you will not this way bring back the loss of crown the board also has. This can only be done with installing a new board, or shimming the old one (after jacking it up) and treating it with thin, impregnating epoxy (also while in a jacked-up state) then letting that cure and pulling out the wedges and whatnot you used to bow it out from behind. (I've also seen bolts put through boards screwed to piano backs, through threaded inserts, pushing on protective cauls on the ribs where wedges won't work.) Thumpe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

---

From: Joseph Garrett <joega...@earthlink.net>;

To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits

Sent: Thu, Apr 3, 2014 2:22:22 PM

[Euphonious Thumpe]

Put the piano on its side on a plastic tarp and play some soothing music. Sit there with a cool lamp shining at the underside of the board and push at it near the ribs and splits. Work some glue under where the ribs and board are loose with a syringe and an angled valve clearance feeler gauge from an auto parts store. (I'd use Titebond II. Others here may know better.) Wipe off the excess from the rib/board joint with your nitrile-gloved finger and paper towels. (Gloves are to protect yellow finger-staining.) Don't apply so much that it goes through the crack to drip down the board on the showing side. Won't be pretty, but will stop the buzzes. Tell the buyer. Problem fixed, ethics preserved.

Thumpe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

---

From: da...@piano.plus.com <da...@piano.plus.com>;

To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits

Sent: Thu, Apr 3, 2014 11:15:10 AM

[Ron Nossaman]

On 4/3/2014 8:58 PM, Euphonious Thumpe wrote:
> You can go all over the soundboard fixing loose ribs and board edges
> rubbing, and hopefully get rid of the buzzes, but you'd better charge by
> the hour, with no guarantees. And you will not this way bring back the
> loss of crown the board also has.

Which begs the question of what is being fixed other than the empty
space in the tech's wallet.

> This can only be done with installing
> a new board, or shimming the old one (after jacking it up) and treating
> it with thin, impregnating epoxy (also while in a jacked-up state) then
> letting that cure and pulling out the wedges and whatnot you used to bow
> it out from behind.

This doesn't restore crown. It stiffens the panel by making the surface
less compressible. Crown and stiffness can be restored by adding ribs,
or by adding depth to existing ribs. This is a pretty involved process,
and not a field repair.
Ron N

[David Boyce]

Thank you one and all for your responses on this topic, which were very
much what I expected.

The customer is a nice guy (American but I forget from which state), and
I promised him that I would run the problem past this technical forum,
so that he would not be getting just my opinion. My parting shot to him
was to say, This piano is 116 years old. When you think about it, what
other mechanical device in a home lasts anything like that long? How old
is your washing machine or vacuum cleaner?

I am certainly disinclined to involve myself in any 'repair' attempt.
Something along the lines of what you said, Thumpe, is the only thing I
could think of, and I really don't want to attempt it. Nor, I think,
would any piano restorer in Scotland (or the UK for that matter) be
interested to try anything for less than a highly off-putting price. And
indeed, why should they?

I knew there was no "quick fix" for this. But I promised the client I'd ask.

When I reflect on this whole business of Old Pianos, I think Joe Public
is much less to be blamed for wrong ideas, than piano 'restorers' and
secondhand dealers. (I am talking about the UK market here, but I guess
things will not be that much different in the USA). They exploit the
mythos of 'Brand Cachet' and sell cosmetically retouched pianos as
marvellous instruments. They get away with it on instruments like
Bechstein and Bluthner, because Carl Bechstein and Julius Bluthner were
marketing whizzkids, and established Brand Value, which people buy
into. The dealer knows he CAN sell prettied-up junk for good money,
because it has a certain name on it, so he DOES. It is in the dealer's
interest to keep the mythos of the brand going.

I am not here talking of genuine rebuilders who do wonderful work
including new soundboards etc. Such work is ethical and superb BUT
hardly worth it economically, in terms of the number of person-hours of
work involved.

So, is Joe Public all that much to be blamed for his folly, if the
generality of piano shops keep this brand myth going, and push out
pimped-up relics, representing them as wonderful?

I am reminded of the Compact Fluorescent lightbulb débacle. All around
the UK people are sitting in homes barely and balefully illuminated by a
dim green glimmer, because they rather accept the writing on the box
than the evidence of their own eyes. The box says 60 Watt equivalent,
so they believe it, even though switching the thing on practically makes
the room darker! They don't have the gumption to say, most of them ,
"wait a minute, this is REALLY DIM, and the colour is HORRIBLE".

Similarly, they are told in the piano dealer "This is an 1898 Bluthner.
Bluthners are wonderful pianos". So they buy it and take it home and
play it and say "This is a Bluthner. Bluthners sound wonderful.
Therefore this sounds wonderful".

Of course I am over-simplifying here, and my customer is much more
intelligent than that. Sadly, in Italy, he had a 20 year old Schimmel
and the plate cracked, and nobody - least of all Schimmel - was
interested to help in any way. And now, he has a 6'3" Bluthner grand
piano that is worth, essentially, zero.

Best regards,

David Boyce
P.S. Joe - sorry, in my original post I didn't put my name. I sent it
from my cellphone just to start the discussion.

[Joseph Garrett]

David B. said: "I am not here talking of genuine rebuilders who do wonderful work

including new soundboards etc. Such work is ethical and superb BUT
hardly worth it economically, in terms of the number of person-hours of
work involved."

David,
On that statement I strongly disagree. Where I am, a decent new 6' Grand will sell in the $30k-40k. Most of those are butt ugly Black plastic abominations.<G> A completely rebuilt piano such as you are dealing with, that has real wood styling and beauty will cost in the neighborhood of $20k. To me that is definately a savings! Also, any good rebuilder worth his/her salt will improve/redesign/modernize/upgrade the existing structure/action, etc. to a better than new condition. What's not to LOVE about that? Hmmm? Black butt ugly? Or, beautiful natural wood w/artful legs, lyre, etc.? No contest imo. The only drawback is the length of time it takes to do the whole process. And possibly the owner may not like the tone/sound of the finished product. I have never had the later happen, but it is possible.<G> So, unless you are dealing with some obscure weird PSO. Rebuilding and Remanufacture are definitely a huge cost savings to the consumer. Of course the client needs to have available money rather than a big credit card allowable.<G>
Best,
Joe

-----Original Message-----
>From: David Boyce <Da...@piano.plus.com>
>Sent: Apr 3, 2014 8:12 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits
>

[Ron Nossaman]

On 4/3/2014 10:12 PM, David Boyce wrote:

> I am not here talking of genuine rebuilders who do wonderful work
> including new soundboards etc. Such work is ethical and superb BUT
> hardly worth it economically, in terms of the number of person-hours of
> work involved.

I was pretty much with you up to here. The quality and performance for
the price is far superior to new in a decent rebuild. Unfortunately, the
usual rebuild is a cosmetic patch up at twice the money it's worth, and
techs don't know the difference any more than the public. The crooks
make more per hour than the legitimate and conscientious rebuilders. A
lot of people thought buying new was supportable a hundred years and
more ago, judging by the number of old pianos that are still around, but
now we seem to be content squatting in the ruins of a dead civilization,
poking at IPhones.
Ron N

[Larry Fisher RPT]

Hi David,

On a couple of occasions I have improved the sound of a piano by gluing up the loose ribs and making the entire soundboard panel "look" like a solid piece of wood to the sound wave.  One in particular was a spinet that most likely sat next the radiator for many years.  The soundboard looked like a picket fence and there wasn't much, if any, tone.  After putting in my time to drill the holes (through the rib only), work the glue in under the rib (using a local competitor's business card) and add close to 50 screws as I recall,  the change in tone was incredible.  She was a happy girl after that.

On an old upright the lower bass corner of the soundboard was loose.  I worked some glue in along the edges and put in some screws from inside to the rim and instantly had an amazing improvement in bass.  A day or so later the customer called to thank me for bringing back the sound of their piano.

On smaller jobs, just simply putting in a screw through the rib to the soundboard either side of the crack has eliminated buzzes.  Achieving some ooze from the glue is the goal when I do this.

Agreed, the soundboard is tortured.  A cheap fix is not a good thing to guarantee.  Properly informing the customer prior to work being done is imperative.  A person can still get some enjoyment from their piano for many years to come with this sort of repair but there are some hazards along the way that the customer needs to be made aware of.  In this case, the customer is wanting to part with the piano and simply make it sellable  .......  in other words, get rid of the buzz cheap.

My favorite drill bit for this are the type that are stamped from a flat piece of metal and then twisted to look like it might drill a hole  ........  shoulder and counter sink included.  From memory the brand name is either Black and Decker or KD Tools  ........  or maybe Vermont American.  Ah yes.  Memory.  Anyone remember what that was??  The fog is getting thicker around here.

(sound of feed troughs being pushed around, squealing and snorting)

As for using Hog Snot, I've heard good reports with using Pizza Grease as a good soundboard restorer.  It smells far better, you don't get those annoying grunting noises from your piano when it's not being played  ......  and you don't have to clean the area under the piano every day.  Got Beer?

Lar

[David Boyce]

On 04/04/2014 05:09, Ron Nossaman wrote:
>
>> I am not here talking of genuine rebuilders who do wonderful work
>> including new soundboards etc. Such work is ethical and superb BUT
>> hardly worth it economically, in terms of the number of person-hours of
>> work involved.
>
> I was pretty much with you up to here. The quality and performance for
> the price is far superior to new in a decent rebuild. Unfortunately,
> the usual rebuild is a cosmetic patch up at twice the money it's
> worth, and techs don't know the difference any more than the public.
> The crooks make more per hour than the legitimate and conscientious
> rebuilders.

Ron I think I was trying to say the same thing as you (and Joe). The
acceptance of cosmetic patch-ups, which certainly predominate in the UK,
make it difficult for REAL rebuilders to make a living. People won't
generally pay for the cost of a proper conscientious rebuild. Not when
they can get something that looks purty and, kinda, plays.

Best regards,

David.

[David Boyce]

Larry, thanks for those thoughts. 

I feel it's all too much of an unknown quantity for me. I don't think I want to get involved, when I'm not experienced with this, and I don't know what the end result will be.

Best regards,

David.

[Ron Nossaman]

On 4/4/2014 3:31 PM, David Boyce wrote:

> Ron I think I was trying to say the same thing as you (and Joe). The
> acceptance of cosmetic patch-ups, which certainly predominate in the UK,
> make it difficult for REAL rebuilders to make a living. People won't
> generally pay for the cost of a proper conscientious rebuild. Not when
> they can get something that looks purty and, kinda, plays.

Or is made to seem less bad. I agree totally.
Ron N

[Euphonious Thumpe]

I've not measured the results myself, but I know a very intelligent person who says he has, and that it DOES restore crown. (Though not, of course, to the precise geometry of a new bopard.) A) Dry down whole piano in low RH room. Keep in low RH room for whole process. B) Glue edges of soundboard in, to keep it from popping out. C) Jack up board with wedges and bolt impingements where wedges won't fit. Stop when you start to hear cracking. D) Shim cracks with shims cut from another old board. (Not new wood.) Splits too small for shims, fill with epoxy mixed with board sanding dust. (From top, with bottom seriously sealed with masking tape. Wet with straight epoxy, first, and let partially cure. CA glue can also be used for this: when it hits the masking tape, it sets. E) Brush on epoxy. I've in the past used regular "West's", but have been told that the penetrating stuff works better. A few coats, sanded between. F) Take out shims and let piano acclimate to normal RH. Board should now have added crown, and be very "live". G) Report your results on this list.

Thumpe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

---

From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>;

To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits

Sent: Fri, Apr 4, 2014 4:09:12 AM

[Euphonious Thumpe]

Accept it, folks: pianos are no longer the very high priority that they once were in people's lives for socializing, entertainment, and etc.. Humans' sense of what constitutes "music" has also drastically changed (vastly for the worse, in my opinion); and as their sensory apparatus has been disheveled, maimed, and scrambled by the caustic cacophony of modern society* (and it's "music") they also now lack discernment between "good" and "bad" tone; as we, and those who strove to develop lovely-sounding instruments over the centuries, would define it. Thumpe * I can't even stand the "bleep, blip, blorp" of touch-tone telephone dialing"; and thus wonder how it, too, has affected people's ability to respond to nicer sounds?

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

---

From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>;
To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits

Sent: Fri, Apr 4, 2014 8:37:42 PM

[Euphonious Thumpe]

For most souls today, having a piano is for little more than a "status symbol". Thumpe

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

---

From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>;
To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits
Sent: Fri, Apr 4, 2014 8:37:42 PM

[Terry Farrell]

On Apr 4, 2014, at 10:38 PM, Euphonious Thumpe wrote:

I've not measured the results myself, but I know a very intelligent person who says he has, and that it DOES restore crown. (Though not, of course, to the precise geometry of a new bopard.) A) Dry down whole piano in low RH room. Keep in low RH room for whole process.

How low is low?

B) Glue edges of soundboard in, to keep it from popping out.

If the board isn't out, how the heck ya going to do that?

C) Jack up board with wedges and bolt impingements where wedges won't fit. Stop when you start to hear cracking.

As stated in Monty Python: "Why stop there?"

D) Shim cracks with shims cut from another old board. (Not new wood.)

Oh, please do explain.....

Splits too small for shims, fill with epoxy mixed with board sanding dust.

From an old board, or new wood? And if an old board, does it have to be the original one - oh, wait, how could I do that?

E) Brush on epoxy. I've in the past used regular "West's", but have been told that the penetrating stuff works better. A few coats, sanded between.

Is that because it penetrates varnish better?

F) Take out shims and let piano acclimate to normal RH. Board should now have added crown, and be very "live". G) Report your results on this list.

You first. Terry Farrell

[Euphonious Thumpe]

I dried the piano in 20% for a week. In a "tent" I made with 2x4's and 6 mil plastic sheeting in the end of my shop. Filled the crack around the edge of the soundboard (plate out, of course) with thin CA. (With plenty of plastic and paper beneath the piano to catch drip-throughs.) Stopped wedging/jacking up the board with screw-up jigs whenever cracking sounds started. (You want to stop there to keep from damaging the board, Terry.) Shimmed with shims made from an old (130 Y.O. S&S concert grand -- but I'd prefer to have made shims from a thicker board, like on a Packard) because they're all dried out and hardened, just like old soundboards are, so won't compress as much as new wood. Used sanding dust from board being fixed, saved from scraping/sanding process. No finish on board (see above) so epoxy sinks in.

Thumpe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

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From: Terry Farrell <farrellpi...@gmail.com>;

To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits

Sent: Sat, Apr 5, 2014 1:57:36 PM

[Joseph Garrett]

Hmm? A lot of smoke and mirrors. Also, urban legends. Also, less than factual facts. Sheesh!

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Euphonious Thumpe
Sent: Apr 5, 2014 11:33 AM
To: "pian...@googlegroups.com"
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits

I dried the piano in 20% for a week. In a "tent" I made with 2x4's and 6 mil plastic sheeting in the end of my shop. Filled the crack around the edge of the soundboard (plate out, of course) with thin CA. (With plenty of plastic and paper beneath the piano to catch drip-throughs.) Stopped wedging/jacking up the board with screw-up jigs whenever cracking sounds started. (You want to stop there to keep from damaging the board, Terry.) Shimmed with shims made from an old (130 Y.O. S&S concert grand -- but I'd prefer to have made shims from a thicker board, like on a Packard) because they're all dried out and hardened, just like old soundboards are, so won't compress as much as new wood. Used sanding dust from board being fixed, saved from scraping/sanding process. No finish on board (see above) so epoxy sinks in.

Thumpe

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Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Euphonious Thumpe]

Dear Ron, Though it's generally considered "guache" and "declasse" to "toot your own horn": due to the plethora of snarky belittling I've endured on this list, kindly allow me to remind one and all that "adding height to existing ribs" (your words), to reinstate crown, is a technique I suggested here (that went uncommented on) l-o-o-o-n-g before the eminent and astonishing Ron Overs effected it; and for it reaped great, and greatly deserved, praise. Did he get the idea from my post? I don't know, don't care, and that's not the point. Innovations descend to us from the astral plane when and if its inhabitants deem us worthy. Often nearly simultaneously, to disparate souls in decidedly distant climes. The point is (to those most snarky of readers: and you know who you are!) that it may be advisable to tone down the ridiculing rudeness, for which you may very well be ultimately answerable. Thumpe P.S. A couple of other innovations that "came to me" before they were manifested on the material plane: A) The "Zenph" system that allows an old audio, analog recording to be converted to a computerized reproducing piano file. (Allowing, for example, Art Tatum's phonograph records to play your piano.) This "came to me" while sitting at my workbench in 1975, and the thought so excited me that I called Wayne Stahnke, to mention it. B) The CD player. The basic layout of which "came to me" in 1980. In none of these three instances did I develop the idea into reality. But I still have a soundboard idea (that the publisher of Reblitz's books deemed worthy) that I hope to eventually build, that I at least have mailed the schematics for back to myself, as a "time-stamp" evidence.

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From: Euphonious Thumpe <lcl...@yahoo.com>;
To: pian...@googlegroups.com <pian...@googlegroups.com>;

Subject: Re: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits

Sent: Sat, Apr 5, 2014 6:33:04 PM

[Euphonious Thumpe]

And the piano (which had the most messed-up soundboard I've ever repaired) sounded very good when done. If I ever do another, I WILL take before-and-after measurements. (And report them to y'all.) Until then, though, I consider this sonic evidence as proof enough.

Thumpe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

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From: Joseph Garrett <joega...@earthlink.net>;

To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Buzzing soundboard splits

Sent: Sun, Apr 6, 2014 4:47:38 AM