Cardboard shim for loose tuning pin

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

I would like to know the opinion of the professional tuners about installing cardboard shim for tightening pin

https://youtu.be/pOBwn2odX-g?list=PLDD6668CC75A16250

Cardboard shim for loose tuning pin:

This is a cost-effective method of fixing a loose tuning pin. It avoids de-tuning adjacent strings, which can happen with methods that involve hammering tuning pins in.

First, turn the tuning pin enough to slacken the string coils. Then, using a narrow (but strong) screwdriver or an awl, lever the end of the string out of the tuning pin hole. (This point in the string is called the 'becket'). Lever against the tuning pin itself to prise the string out.

Now unscrew the tuning pin completely, leaving the string and coils in place. From some corrugated cardboard about 2mm or 3mm thick, cut a piece 20mm by 50mm. Insert this strip into the tuning pin hole (It may be helpful to curve the cardboard round a screwdriver shaft first, to make it easier to insert into the tuning pin hole). Firmly start the tuning pin into the hole, with the cardboard shim in place. Carefully turn the tuning pin into the hole, going quite slowly so as to avoid a build-up of heat. Turn the pin all the way in, to the same level as before.

Carefully insert the end of the string (the 'becket') back into the tuning pin hole, using suitable pliers. Make sure that the string coils are kept tight, using a stringing hook or a screwdriver.

Tune the string to pitch. The cardboard shim method will keep the pin tight for years and does not involve glue.

                   This English translation kindly made Scotland technician David Boyce

 regards,Max
                                                 
                            Happy New Year 2016!

[David Kroenlein]

I think its much easier using CA glue on all of the pins, since eventually a lot more will become loose

Sent from my iPhone

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

If I understand you correctly, you think that a cardboard is ineffective and after that operation with it's the number of loose pins become increase? Cardboard method work well. What concerns CA - it's fast and I do not doubt that reliable. But wood bush and hole is partly damaged, I think

[David Boyce]

On 31/12/2015 06:53, Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94 wrote:
> I would like to know the opinion of the professional tuners about
> installing cardboard shim for tightening pin

Max, please do not repeat here the discussion from the Pianoworld
Forum. You will get the same answers here as you did there. We have
all used cardboard and/or veneer and/or sandpaper shims in the past. We
have all already told you that CA glue is now the generally preferred
method, for all the reasons we gave.

Best regards,

David.

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

I see and understand, David
Happy New 2016 Year!
Regards,Max

[Don]

Hi David,

Not all of us are on the pianoworld forum on a regular and daily basis.

 

Regards,
Don Rose
Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat
mailto:pian...@yahoo.com http://www.donrose.ca/
Box 37181, Regina, SK S4S 7K4
306-539-0716

---

From: David Boyce <Da...@piano.plus.com>
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2015 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Cardboard shim for loose tuning pin

[Joseph Garrett]

Max,

I use Walnut veneer shims occasionally. Card board is old school and not very effective. Nor is Sand paper or bronze shims recommended. The first line of attack would be Thin CA Glue. I've found it to be the most effective. If that doesn't work, then a Walnut, (or maple), shim to make the hole smaller is used.

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94
Sent: Dec 30, 2015 10:53 PM
To: pianotech
Subject: [pianotech] Cardboard shim for loose tuning pin

I would like to know the opinion of the professional tuners about installing cardboard shim for tightening pin

https://youtu.be/pOBwn2odX-g?list=PLDD6668CC75A16250

Cardboard shim for loose tuning pin:

This is a cost-effective method of fixing a loose tuning pin. It avoids de-tuning adjacent strings, which can happen with methods that involve hammering tuning pins in.

First, turn the tuning pin enough to slacken the string coils. Then, using a narrow (but strong) screwdriver or an awl, lever the end of the string out of the tuning pin hole. (This point in the string is called the 'becket'). Lever against the tuning pin itself to prise the string out.

Now unscrew the tuning pin completely, leaving the string and coils in place. From some corrugated cardboard about 2mm or 3mm thick, cut a piece 20mm by 50mm. Insert this strip into the tuning pin hole (It may be helpful to curve the cardboard round a screwdriver shaft first, to make it easier to insert into the tuning pin hole). Firmly start the tuning pin into the hole, with the cardboard shim in place. Carefully turn the tuning pin into the hole, going quite slowly so as to avoid a build-up of heat. Turn the pin all the way in, to the same level as before.

Carefully insert the end of the string (the 'becket') back into the tuning pin hole, using suitable pliers. Make sure that the string coils are kept tight, using a stringing hook or a screwdriver.

Tune the string to pitch. The cardboard shim method will keep the pin tight for years and does not involve glue.

                   This English translation kindly made Scotland technician David Boyce

 regards,Max
                                                 
                            Happy New Year 2016!

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Joseph Garrett]

Thank god.<G>

Nor are many of us on that accursed PTG abomination.<G>

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Don' via pianotech
Sent: Dec 31, 2015 6:48 AM
To: "pian...@googlegroups.com"
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Cardboard shim for loose tuning pin

Hi David,

Not all of us are on the pianoworld forum on a regular and daily basis.

 

Regards,
Don Rose
Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat
mailto:pian...@yahoo.com http://www.donrose.ca/
Box 37181, Regina, SK S4S 7K4
306-539-0716

---

From: David Boyce <Da...@piano.plus.com>
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2015 3:12 AM

Subject: Re: [pianotech] Cardboard shim for loose tuning pin

On 31/12/2015 06:53, Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94 wrote:
> I would like to know the opinion of the professional tuners about
> installing cardboard shim for tightening pin

Max, please do not repeat here the discussion from the Pianoworld
Forum.  You will get the same answers here as you did there.  We have
all used cardboard and/or veneer and/or sandpaper shims in the past.  We
have all already told you that CA glue is now the generally preferred
method, for all the reasons we gave.

Best regards,

David.

[Terry Farrell]

 Nor is Sand paper or bronze shims recommended.

Why is sandpaper not recommended? Not recommended by whom? I haven’t used it in a long time, but if I had just a few loose pins on a piano I’d use it again - I’ve always had good luck with it in the past.

How thick are your hardwood shims? How big do you make them?

Terry Farrell

[Joseph Garrett]

Terry,

See below<G>

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Farrell
Sent: Dec 31, 2015 10:24 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Cardboard shim for loose tuning pin

 Nor is Sand paper or bronze shims recommended.

Why is sandpaper not recommended? Not recommended by whom? I haven’t used it in a long time, but if I had just a few loose pins on a piano I’d use it again - I’ve always had good luck with it in the past.

The reason I don't recommend sandpaper is purely from a rebuilder's perspective. I route out pin blocks and replace the areas with new block material. I've run into a few that had the sandpaper shims. They really trash my router bits, (Carbides @ $75.00 each! Resharpening: $30.00! and a one time thing...then trash can!) Also, I've seen a lot of sandpaper, (and cardboard), shims that didn't work because they tend to "bunch up" in the hole.

How thick are your hardwood shims? How big do you make them?\

I use, exclusively Walnut veneer that is, roughly, .030"-.035" thick. I've used maple, (and other hard woods), but don't get the torque/feel I get from walnut. I make strips, approximately 3/16" to 1/4" wide. I make the length the depth of the drilled hole +. I put the strip in my mouth and slobber on it while I'm getting the wire/tuning pin/tools set up. That makes the veneer flexible so that it conforms to the hole as I screw in the tuning pin. (doesn't taste bad either.<G>) That's how I've been doing it all these years and it's served me well, considering all the PSO's/POS's that I've worked on.<G>

Terry Farrell

On Dec 31, 2015, at 11:35 AM, Joseph Garrett <joega...@earthlink.net> wrote:

Max,

I use Walnut veneer shims occasionally. Card board is old school and not very effective. Nor is Sand paper or bronze shims recommended. The first line of attack would be Thin CA Glue. I've found it to be the most effective. If that doesn't work, then a Walnut, (or maple), shim to make the hole smaller is used.

Best,

Joe

[Terry Farrell]

One hardwood/walnut shim of the size described per hole?

Terry Farrell

[Joseph Garrett]

Yes.  That usually does it.<G>

Happy New Year

Joe

[Larry Fisher RPT]

Hi Max (via David)

Back before unleaded fuel and radios took a while to warm up, I was taught to use emery cloth  .....  abrasive cloth used to sand metal.  The grit side was faced out so it would grip the wood.  It would work for a while and I think the hardwood shim is a better idea.  Additionally I saw someone used sheet rock screws right next to the t-pin and then broke them off.  They're quite brittle and break nicely at the surface.  CA glue is a great first line of repair and should be tried first.  All these methods are to be used on pianos that are past their useful life and a cheap short term fix is asked for.  Informing the customer of this type of repair and it's shortcomings is very important.

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

пятница, 1 января 2016 г., 7:08:12 UTC+5 пользователь Larry Fisher RPT написал:

Hi Max (via David)

Back before unleaded fuel and radios took a while to warm up, I was taught to use emery cloth  .....  abrasive cloth used to sand metal.  The grit side was faced out so it would grip the wood.  It would work for a while and I think the hardwood shim is a better idea.  Additionally I saw someone used sheet rock screws right next to the t-pin and then broke them off.  They're quite brittle and break nicely at the surface.  CA glue is a great first line of repair and should be tried first.  All these methods are to be used on pianos that are past their useful life and a cheap short term fix is asked for.  Informing the customer of this type of repair and it's shortcomings is very important.

Hi, Larry
 Concerning "that the hardwood shim is a better idea." I unfortunately do not think so, because if the shim is very thin, the friction when a pin  driving into a hole will be small after that operation. If you put into a hole of a pinblock very thick veneer, then comes uneven   disposition of a pin in the hole. As a result, the clutch is of poor quality. Friction is  uneven around the circumference of whole wood hole of a pinblock.
Why Max uses a conventional corrugated cardboard (3mm)? Many believe this eccentricity, and even idiotic idea especially many Russian technicians of a piano. However, the main idea of this technique is good quality of a fixing. If you watched the clip, that you found that Max does not hammers a pin. Max screwing a pin back. What happens when screwing a pin? Yes, a corrugated cardboard shim partially destroyed in the hole. And finely dispersed particles (fibres) fills the existing cracks and microporosity in a pinblock . Have not ruined adjacent holes, so Max does not used a hammer. The resulting friction between a pin and wood hole increases. It's important. As a result consumables is not worth a penny, a pin remained "native", a friction appeared.
Sincerely, Max

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

Max,

I use Walnut veneer shims occasionally. Card board is old school and not very effective. Nor is Sand paper or bronze shims recommended. The first line of attack would be Thin CA Glue. I've found it to be the most effective. If that doesn't work, then a Walnut, (or maple), shim to make the hole smaller is used.

Best,

Joe

 Hi,Joe
Thank you for yours clarification. I effectively use corrugated board shim now

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

четверг, 31 декабря 2015 г., 19:51:13 UTC+5 пользователь Don написал:

Hi David,

Not all of us are on the pianoworld forum on a regular and daily basis.

 

Regards,
Don Rose
Hi,Don

See here:http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1903472/Ok,%20so%20I've%20been%20thinking%20abou.html

Regards,Max

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

I use, exclusively Walnut veneer that is, roughly, .030"-.035" thick. I've used maple, (and other hard woods), but don't get the torque/feel I get from walnut. I make strips, approximately 3/16" to 1/4" wide. I make the length the depth of the drilled hole +. I put the strip in my mouth and slobber on it while I'm getting the wire/tuning pin/tools set up. That makes the veneer flexible so that it conforms to the hole as I screw in the tuning pin. (doesn't taste bad either.<G>) That's how I've been doing it all these years and it's served me well, considering all the PSO's/POS's that I've worked on.<G>

It was screwing a pin into pinblock  difficult?

 

[Joseph Garrett]

Max,

You asked for the proper uses to make tuning pins properly tight. You were given many examples. None, required the use of cardboard! If you wish to use shoddy techniques then don't ask me for my blessings or assistance in the future.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94
Sent: Dec 31, 2015 11:47 PM
To: pianotech

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

Max,

You asked for the proper uses to make tuning pins properly tight. You were given many examples. None, required the use of cardboard! If you wish to use shoddy techniques then don't ask me for my blessings or assistance in the future.

Joe

 It's not shoddy method (cardboard) for me.
Sorry, Joe, if I you offended

[David Boyce]

Indeed. This is why I drew attention to the Pianoworld discussion, even
though people here may not be in that forum. There, a lengthy and
comprehensive discussion aired the comments of, and revealed the
consensus of, many vastly experienced technicians and rebuilders.

It was universally shown that the method nowadays preferred and found to
be best, is the use of CA glue. Those who have been around a long time
used other methods prior to the discovery of the effectiveness of the CA
technique some fifteen years ago. Since that discovery, they don't use
the various shimming methods.

In places where low viscosity CA is not available, older methods will
have to be used. But where it is, it is the method preferred by every
experienced technician.

Best regards,

David.

[Joseph Garrett]

Tell me that when it fails.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94

Sent: Jan 1, 2016 1:24 AM
To: pianotech
Cc: joega...@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Cardboard shim for loose tuning pin

Max,

You asked for the proper uses to make tuning pins properly tight. You were given many examples. None, required the use of cardboard! If you wish to use shoddy techniques then don't ask me for my blessings or assistance in the future.

Joe

 It's not shoddy method (cardboard) for me.
Sorry, Joe, if I you offended

[Joseph Garrett]

David,
Well said. Thank you. I had not taken into consideration that there are places that CA is not available. In that case, I maintain that walnut shim is the next best thing. I have pianos, out there, that I shimmed with walnut still functioning nicely 30+ years and still going. Proof is in the pudding.
On the cardboard side, I've seen many done that way and they were failing in a few years if not sooner. That is just my experience. Of course there is always the caveat: YMMV!<G>
Best Regards, (And Happy New Year!)
Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

-----Original Message-----
>From: David Boyce <Da...@piano.plus.com>
>Sent: Jan 1, 2016 1:25 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Cardboard shim for loose tuning pin
>

>Indeed. This is why I drew attention to the Pianoworld discussion, even
>though people here may not be in that forum. There, a lengthy and
>comprehensive discussion aired the comments of, and revealed the
>consensus of, many vastly experienced technicians and rebuilders.
>
>It was universally shown that the method nowadays preferred and found to
>be best, is the use of CA glue. Those who have been around a long time
>used other methods prior to the discovery of the effectiveness of the CA
>technique some fifteen years ago. Since that discovery, they don't use
>the various shimming methods.
>
>In places where low viscosity CA is not available, older methods will
>have to be used. But where it is, it is the method preferred by every
>experienced technician.
>
>Best regards,
>
>David.
>
>On 01/01/2016 09:09, Joseph Garrett wrote:

[David Kroenlein]

Is that rust on those pins? Looks like the pins need replacing badly!

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 1, 2016, at 02:10, Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94 <maxim...@mail.ru> wrote:

I use, exclusively Walnut veneer that is, roughly, .030"-.035" thick. I've used maple, (and other hard woods), but don't get the torque/feel I get from walnut. I make strips, approximately 3/16" to 1/4" wide. I make the length the depth of the drilled hole +. I put the strip in my mouth and slobber on it while I'm getting the wire/tuning pin/tools set up. That makes the veneer flexible so that it conforms to the hole as I screw in the tuning pin. (doesn't taste bad either.<G>) That's how I've been doing it all these years and it's served me well, considering all the PSO's/POS's that I've worked on.<G>

It was screwing a pin into pinblock  difficult?

 

<колки ржаве.jpg>

[David Boyce]

On 01/01/2016 10:23, David Kroenlein wrote:
> Looks like the pins need replacing badly!

Why replace them badly? Why not replace them well??

Don;t know why Max sent that photo; it's not his. SOmeone sent it to the
Pianoworld forum with a question about what the flaky stuff was.

Best regards,

David.

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

Don;t know why Max sent that photo; it's not his. SOmeone sent it to the
Pianoworld forum with a question about what the flaky stuff was.

David.

Max don't send massage here and do it's.Flaky pins have not attitude that theme

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

Tell me that when it fails.

Joe

Never

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

On the cardboard side, I've seen many done that way and they were failing in a few years if not sooner. That is just my experience. Of course there is always the caveat:

Basic Max's csrdboard method is a screwing and it's works long time. If it's made as make Max in many his clip

[richa...@comcast.net]

How are the strings so nice and the pins so bad?

Rick Ucci

Uccipiano.com

On Jan 1, 2016, at 3:10 AM, Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94 <maxim...@mail.ru> wrote:

I use, exclusively Walnut veneer that is, roughly, .030"-.035" thick. I've used maple, (and other hard woods), but don't get the torque/feel I get from walnut. I make strips, approximately 3/16" to 1/4" wide. I make the length the depth of the drilled hole +. I put the strip in my mouth and slobber on it while I'm getting the wire/tuning pin/tools set up. That makes the veneer flexible so that it conforms to the hole as I screw in the tuning pin. (doesn't taste bad either.<G>) That's how I've been doing it all these years and it's served me well, considering all the PSO's/POS's that I've worked on.<G>

It was screwing a pin into pinblock  difficult?

 

<колки ржаве.jpg>

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

<колки ржаве.jpg>

How are the strings so nice and the pins so bad?

It's tuner's rebus

[Joseph Garrett]

Coward!

-----Original Message-----
From: Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94
Sent: Jan 1, 2016 5:29 AM
To: pianotech
Cc: joega...@earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Cardboard shim for loose tuning pin

Tell me that when it fails.

Joe

Never

[Joseph Garrett]

Photolab!<G> Along with Russian Treachery.<G>

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: richa...@comcast.net
Sent: Jan 1, 2016 6:17 AM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [pianotech] Cardboard shim for loose tuning pin

How are the strings so nice and the pins so bad?

Rick Ucci

Uccipiano.com

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

In Brazilya it's method is work now
https://youtu.be/M7DhREifxSg

[Joseph Garrett]

If you say so. Still is considered poor imo.
Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94' via pianotech
Sent: Nov 23, 2016 6:53 AM
To: pianotech
Cc: joega...@earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [pianotech] Cardboard shim for loose tuning pin

In Brazilya it's method is work now
https://youtu.be/M7DhREifxSg

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

среда, 23 ноября 2016 г., 21:20:54 UTC+5 пользователь Joseph Garrett написал:

 I'm not so think

[Настройщик пианино г.Уральск тел. 30-19-94]

Cardboard shim for loose tuning pin:

This is a cost-effective method of fixing a loose tuning pin. It avoids de-tuning adjacent strings, which can happen with methods that involve hammering tuning pins in.

First, turn the tuning pin enough to slacken the string coils. Then, using a narrow (but strong) screwdriver or an awl, lever the end of the string out of the tuning pin hole. (This point in the string is called the 'becket'). Lever against the tuning pin itself to prise the string out.

Now unscrew the tuning pin completely, leaving the string and coils in place. From some corrugated cardboard about 2mm or 3mm thick, cut a piece 20mm by 50mm. Insert this strip into the tuning pin hole (It may be helpful to curve the cardboard round a screwdriver shaft first, to make it easier to insert into the tuning pin hole). Firmly start the tuning pin into the hole, with the cardboard shim in place. Carefully turn the tuning pin into the hole, going quite slowly so as to avoid a build-up of heat. Turn the pin all the way in, to the same level as before.

Carefully insert the end of the string (the 'becket') back into the tuning pin hole, using suitable pliers. Make sure that the string coils are kept tight, using a stringing hook or a screwdriver.

Tune the string to pitch. The cardboard shim method will keep the pin tight for years and does not involve glue.

https://youtu.be/LjN3XaXp1S4