Transposing piano

[Rafael Huberman Muñiz]

Hi guys!

O didn't knew about the existance of a transposing piano until I found this! Unfortunately a smart piano technician "fixed" the transposing issue... Nice way to ruine history!

Rafael Huberman

[Euphonious Thumpe]

Irving Berlin wrote on one, because he only played in F#. Thumpe

---

From: Rafael Huberman Muñiz <rafahu...@gmail.com>;
To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: [ptech] Transposing piano
Sent: Tue, Apr 2, 2013 3:35:06 PM

["Rafael M. Huberman Muñiz"]

Is that so? I didn't know that!

Rafael

[Joe DeFazio]

Rafael M. Huberman Muñiz wrote:

....didn't knew about the existance of a transposing piano until I found this! Unfortunately a smart piano technician "fixed" the transposing issue... Nice way to ruine history!

Hi Rafael,

It is nice to run across things like this, isn't it?  Your picture suggests that the keys move left to access the other position, and that the key at the break must be forked (shaped like the letter Y).  Are both of these correct?  The action could shift right instead, I suppose, but that seems like a lot more work to engineer....

I recently came across a Vough transposing upright still in good working condition.  Unlike your pictured action, neither the keys nor the action on the Vough shift left or right.  Instead, the bottom of the action swings forward and backward, and each key has an auxiliary adjustable sticker extension that is in front of and one key to the left of the regular sticker.

I have enclosed some small pictures that illustrate how it works.

1) The shift lever.  The keys must be locked in the up position (as in a player piano) by pulling up the little tab by key A0 before shifting.  Shifting is then done by moving the knob forward or backward.

2) The pivot mechanism, which is the bar at the bottom left of the picture.  The vertical protrusions on this bar swing the sticker rail forward and back by pulling or pushing on the metal "paddle" hanging down from the sticker rail.

3) The sticker extensions and capstans.  The action is in the "forward" position in the picture, so the extensions engage the neighboring capstans.  In the "back" position, the stickers engage the capstans directly under them, as normal.

4) The forked key (Y shaped), necessary for one key to engage hammers on both sides of a break.

5) The instructions, and beautiful birds-eye maple!

I do have a movie, so, if you would like to see how it shifts, email me off list and I will send it.  I won't post it here because it is large.

Enjoy,

Joe DeFazio

Pittsburgh

[JG]

Joe, the Vough piano can then only transpose one semi-tone?  Seems like  a  lot of effort for not much result.
Transposers were made by a few different companies.   I have an old German one in my clientele.  Here in Canada, Heintzman was (and is) known for transposers capable of transposing 5 or so semi-tones up as well as down - almost an octave in total.  These are big, wide and heavy pianos.  One shop in my area had three of them in at the same time.

[Joe DeFazio]

JG wrote:

Joe, the Vough piano can then only transpose one semi-tone?  Seems like  a  lot of effort for not much result.

Hi Jurgen,

Yes, the Vough can only transpose one semi-tone.  For some reason, I only got one picture at first when viewing Rafael's original post.  Now that I have accessed the rest of them, it looks to me like his transposer only moves a semi-tone as well.

This is speculation on my part, but I believe that the Vough's semi-tone transposition was made to accommodate the dual pitch standards that were often found in wind instruments at this time in American history.  Many wind instrument makers, such as Conn and Buescher (etc.), at that time made instruments both at "low pitch" (440) and at "high" or "international pitch" (457, or sometimes 456).  I play saxophone, and when evaluating an older horn, I always look for the little "L. P." stamp embossed into the body of the horn, or it will not be viable to play it at 440. 

Since the entire structure of a woodwind instrument is designed around the physics dictated by the pitches (air column lengths) it produces, with a high pitched instrument it is not possible to "pull out" the mouthpiece that far and end up with a horn that plays all notes in tune with an A440 tuned piano.  You would have to move all of the tone holes down away from the mouthpiece proportionally, or, in other words, build an entirely different horn (which is what they did, the "L. P." horn). 

With either horn, small tuning adjustments (such as A440 to A442, or 456 to 457) are quite feasible;  they do slightly affect the relative intonation of the various notes, but a strong player with good embouchure control can compensate.  The larger the deviation, the worse the relative intonation of the various notes of the horn, though.

Since 457 is closer to A# than A440,  I am guessing that when a high pitched horn was played with the Vough, the piano was thrown over to the high pitch setting, and the wind player "pushed in" a lot to get A close to A# (466), and then lived with (fought with?) the relatively poor intonation within the horn.  Not ideal, but better perhaps than finding out that that expensive new piano you just bought couldn't play in tune with your family's (or school's, or town's) wind instruments.

Once again, this is speculation on my part concerning the reason for the Vough transposition.  Wind instruments were very popular at that time in American history, and brass bands, saxophone ensembles, and the like were very much a part of civic life in America.  So were mandolin ensembles and clubs.  Much has changed!

 JG wrote:

Transposers were made by a few different companies.   I have an old German one in my clientele.  Here in Canada, Heintzman was (and is) known for transposers capable of transposing 5 or so semi-tones up as well as down - almost an octave in total.  These are big, wide and heavy pianos.  One shop in my area had three of them in at the same time.

I hear about Heintzman a lot, but have only seen one, a long time ago, and it was not a transposer.  It would be great to see a picture or two of the mechanism, if you or anyone else has any.  Or of your German transposer....

Joe DeFazio
Pittsburgh

[RWyat...@aol.com]

there is transposing Heintzman in the PTG Jack Wyatt Museum in KC

 

                                                                                                                        Rick Wyatt 

[Joseph Garrett]

In poor condition too. :-(

Joe

[Dan Silverwood]

For this thread;

It is true, Berlin only used F# when composing and playing.

Irving Berlin had several transposers; a couple of them were Weser Bros and the other was a Sohmer. One was donated to the Smithsonian Institution in 1973, and is on display in the National Museum of American Jewish History.

For the request from Mr. DeFazio below is a link to a photo album of the Heintzman transposer. I have located about fifty of these across Canada in the previous five year period.

This is an online service by Google called Picasa web albums. Please left click once on the link provided and that will take you to the location of the album. Then, once there, left click once on any photo and that will open up and enlarge the photos, so that the viewer can read the text added in the right side tray.

Here is the link to the photo set of the Heintzman transposer, capable of ten different settings with the exception of F#

Happy viewing.

Heintzman Transposer

[Laura Olsen]

Here are some pictures of the Heintzman Transposer that lives in the PTGF Museum.  Enjoy!

[Joe DeFazio]

Dan Silverwood wrote:

Here is the link to the photo set of the Heintzman transposer, capable of ten different settings with the exception of F#

Thanks, Rick, Dan, and Laura!

Dan, nice photo album and annotations.  It seems the Heinzman would be able to play in 11 keys (c plus ten transpositions).  Must be challenging to get your capstan regulation close to even in all transpositions.

Joe DeFazio
Pittsburgh

["Rafael M. Huberman Muñiz"]

Hi Joe,

Yes! I love when I run into this sort of thingies! 

Your correct about the piano I sent the pictures.

Extraordinary the ones you sent!!!

Thank you for sharing them!

Rafael Huberman

<Vough-1-Lever.jpg><Vough-2-Pivot.jpg><Vough-3-Capstans.jpg><Vough-4-ForkedKey.jpg><Vough-5-Instructions.jpg>

["Rafael M. Huberman Muñiz"]

Thanks for the link, amazing!!!

Rafael Huberman

["Rafael M. Huberman Muñiz"]

Thanks Laura!

Rafael Huberman

El 06/04/2013, a las 01:25 p.m., Laura Olsen escribió:

Here are some pictures of the Heintzman Transposer that lives in the PTGF Museum.  Enjoy!

<Heintzman action.jpeg><Heintzman Transposer.jpeg>

<Transposing Piano.jpeg>

Laura Olsen