Bridge pins and CA glue

[Geoff Sykes]

Gonna dive in and CA glue some flag-poling bridges pins and make my tuners life a bit easier on this one piano. I'm guessing I can't just go out and pick up some Superglue for the job. 

Question 1: What viscosity would be correct for the job? And is there more to that selection process than just viscosity? 

Question 2: Do I need to loosen the strings before doing this? 

Question 3: How long does the glue need to set before the pins are stable enough to tune again?

Thanks --

-- GS

[Ron Nossaman]

On 8/31/2015 6:03 PM, Geoff Sykes wrote:
> Gonna dive in and CA glue some flag-poling bridges pins and make my
> tuners life a bit easier on this one piano. I'm guessing I can't just go
> out and pick up some Superglue for the job.

Hobby shop (model airplanes, etc) as opposed to a craft shop. A 1 or 2
oz squeeze bottle of the house brand is probably good.

> Question 1: What viscosity would be correct for the job? And is there
> more to that selection process than just viscosity?

The thinnest, least exotic they have. Fresh glue, hence the hobby shop.
Modelers lynch suppliers who sell old glue for them to put into a $2000
model they have a year of their lives invested in, so suppliers tend to
be conscientious about their glue freshness.

> Question 2: Do I need to loosen the strings before doing this?

No.

> Question 3: How long does the glue need to set before the pins are
> stable enough to tune again?

Long enough for you to get your fingers apart. It's pretty quick.
Ron N

[Regi Hedahl]

>>Question 1: What viscosity would be correct for the job? And is there more to that selection process than just viscosity?

Water thin CA glue.

>>Question 2: Do I need to loosen the strings before doing this?

No

>>Question 3: How long does the glue need to set before the pins are stable enough to tune again?

I wait until it's dry which is around 1/2 hr after the final treatment. I apply very small amounts of CA glue and apply multiple treatments.

Regi Hedahl

[Joseph Garrett]

Geoff,

Your feet really hit the ground running today! You are a busy little beaver for sure.<G> The CA I use, I get from the best Hobby Shop in the area. It is made by www.bsiadhesives.com It is the thinnest that they have. It is about the viscosity of water. Of course there is also Dreyburgh's CA as well.<G> Good stuff. His "debonder" is the only thing I've found that actually debonds!

Hope that helps.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Sykes
Sent: Aug 31, 2015 4:03 PM
To: pianotech
Subject: [pianotech] Bridge pins and CA glue

Gonna dive in and CA glue some flag-poling bridges pins and make my tuners life a bit easier on this one piano. I'm guessing I can't just go out and pick up some Superglue for the job. 

Question 1: What viscosity would be correct for the job? And is there more to that selection process than just viscosity? 

Question 2: Do I need to loosen the strings before doing this? 

Question 3: How long does the glue need to set before the pins are stable enough to tune again?

Thanks --

-- GS

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Ron Nossaman]

On 8/31/2015 7:59 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:

> The CA I use, I get from the best Hobby Shop in the
> area. It is made by www.bsiadhesives.com

I never paid any attention to it, but mine comes from BSI too. Best I've
found. I wouldn't be surprised if Dryburgh's stuff comes from BSI too,
but it would be my next choice if my local source dried up (as it were).
Ron N

[Geoff Sykes]

Michael's is on my to-do list this weekend. Now I know what to look for. Thanks everyone.

-- GS

[Ron Nossaman]

On 8/31/2015 10:45 PM, Geoff Sykes wrote:
> Michael's is on my to-do list this weekend. Now I know what to look for.

Is there a good hobby shop locally, rather than Michaels? Google craft
stores and you'll get Michaels and Hobby Lobby. Google hobby and model
shops and you'll get the smaller specialty shops. This is why both Joe
and I made the differentiation and suggested hobby shops.
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Strongly suggest the HOBBY stores for the reasons that Ron has outlined. Of course there are CA glues at the local hardware stores and craft shops and even Home Deport, but the stuff from the Hobby Shop WORKS!<G>
Best,
Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Geoff Sykes]

Point taken. Hobby Lobby ain't gonna happen but there are other hobby stores in LA. Thanks. 

[Joseph Garrett]

There ya go![G]

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Sykes

Sent: Aug 31, 2015 9:43 PM
To: pianotech
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Bridge pins and CA glue

[David Skolnik]

Couple of additional pieces of useless advice:
- I transfer a small quantity of CA into a 2oz Gaunt plastic bottle (keep solid cap on when storing).  Use their thinnest or next-to-thinnest needle applicator - very precise control of where and how much glue gets delivered.  (I flush needle with solvent after use.  seems to actually work)
- As always if you're doing a few, and need to get close enough to see what you're doing, use a fan
- not sure that Regi's incremental approach makes sense.  Why?  Would seem that subsequent applications won't get past the hardened initial one.
David Skolnik
Hastings on Hudson, NY

At 07:03 PM 8/31/2015, you wrote:

Gonna dive in and CA glue some flag-poling bridges pins and make my tuners life a bit easier on this one piano. I'm guessing I can't just go out and pick up some Superglue for the job.Â

Question 1: What viscosity would be correct for the job? And is there more to that selection process than just viscosity?Â

Question 2: Do I need to loosen the strings before doing this?Â

Question 3: How long does the glue need to set before the pins are stable enough to tune again?

Thanks --

-- GS

---

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com

[Regi Hedahl]

David,

I go back several times (before the CA glue dries) and add more until it doesn't seem to want to soak any additional. I found that doing it this way more effective than a single treatment. It takes me about 10 minutes to do 3 small treatments.

Regi Hedahl

[Ron Nossaman]

Good point. The aim is to end up with a hole filled clear to the top
with cured CA, which will take multiple passes.
Ron N

[Terry Farrell]

Exactly where do you apply the CA? The few time I have tried this I noticed that string sounding more dull than before. I suspect some of the CA I applied got on the string and had a slight deadening effect.

Terry Farrell

[Terry Farrell]

> ...dried up (as it were).

Don’t you mean cured?

Terry Farrell

[Ron Nossaman]

On 9/1/2015 8:16 AM, Terry Farrell wrote:
> Exactly where do you apply the CA? The few time I have tried this I
> noticed that string sounding more dull than before. I suspect some of
> the CA I applied got on the string and had a slight deadening
> effect.
>
> Terry Farrell

It'll get on (under) the string wherever it's applied. Capillary action
works with this stuff, and the gap needing filled is directly under the
string. How does it sound compared to one next to it where you removed
the string, CA'd the pin, and replaced the string? Dull, or just not
noisy? It will certainly sound different after CA than before, but is
there a difference in removing or not removing the string? Is it dull,
or clean?
Ron N

[Ron Nossaman]

On 9/1/2015 8:17 AM, Terry Farrell wrote:
>> ...dried up (as it were).
>
> Don’t you mean cured?

No I don't. Disappearing supply sources don't cure, they dry up.
Ron N

[Regi Hedahl]

Terry,

Cured is the appropriate word.

I apply the CA at the base of the bridge pin. If it is dulling the sound, you're probably bonding the string to the bridge. Try applying small amounts and multiple passes. It's also possible that your CA glue has too much viscosity. To correct the dull string, remove the tension on that string and break that bond between the string and bridge pin. Don't ask how I know.

Regi Hedahl

[Terry Farrell]

I have tried applying CA with the string in place and at tension. I have not tried removing a string and applying CA. Perhaps I will try that next time. Shouldn’t be a problem finding a false beat (or a thousand) to try it on. I’ll report back.

Terry Farrell

[Terry Farrell]

Darn! Just when I thought I might have caught you in a small slip-up - YOU have to go and prove me wrong!!! You are correct - CA in bottle will dry up after time. CA applied to a substrate in the presence of humidity will cure.

But what about thick CA in a bottle over time - it gets thicker and thicker and at some point won’t even flow. Did that “dry up” (I presume that means lost some of the volatile compounds) or did it cure?

Terry Farrell

[Ron Nossaman]

On 9/1/2015 8:39 AM, Terry Farrell wrote:
> Darn! Just when I thought I might have caught you in a small slip-up
> - YOU have to go and prove me wrong!!! You are correct - CA in
> bottle will dry up after time. CA applied to a substrate in the
> presence of humidity will cure.
>
> But what about thick CA in a bottle over time - it gets thicker and
> thicker and at some point won’t even flow. Did that “dry up” (I
> presume that means lost some of the volatile compounds) or did it
> cure?

Terry,

Here's what I wrote:
> Best I've found. I wouldn't be surprised if Dryburgh's stuff comes
> from BSI too, but it would be my next choice if my local source
> dried up (as it were).

Not even by squinting just right have I said anything AT ALL about CA
drying here.

The local SOURCE may dry up, but CA cures, as I also said:
> The aim is to end up with a hole filled clear to the top with cured
> CA, which will take multiple passes.

I know what I said, I know the words, and I wrote what I meant
accurately. Let's please get this straight before starting a DIFFERENT
discussion about how and why CA cures in or out of the bottle.
Ron N

[David Skolnik]

OK friends, this has gotten downright confusing.  We seem to be considering multiple scenarios, such as:
- CA applied with string in-place
- CA applied with string off but pin in-place
- CA applied to hole with bridge pin removed, as in:

The aim is to end up with a hole filled clear to the top with cured CA, which will take multiple passes.

As for :

I apply the CA at the base of the bridge pin.

I can't figure that one out at all.

Can we clarify what we're talking about?

Terry - I wonder if you observed the dullness immediately after treating pin, and, if so, did you go back to it some time later to re-listen.  I think there's at least a chance that that dullness could be a result of the CA not having yet cured completely.

David Skolnik
Hastings on Hudson, NY

[Terry Farrell]

As for :

I apply the CA at the base of the bridge pin. 

I can't figure that one out at all.

Can we clarify what we're talking about?

I’m quite sure he means the “base of the exposed portion of the bridge pin” - i.e. where the bridge pin intersects the plane of the bridge cap top.

Terry - I wonder if you observed the dullness immediately after treating pin, and, if so, did you go back to it some time later to re-listen.  I think there's at least a chance that that dullness could be a result of the CA not having yet cured completely.

No, I did check it and it did persist.

Terry Farrell

[David Skolnik]

Thanks for clarification on both.  I'm sure you're right about the 'base of pin' thing

David S

At 10:20 AM 9/1/2015, you wrote:

As for :

I apply the CA at the base of the bridge pin.

I can't figure that one out at all.

Can we clarify what we're talking about?

I’m quite sure he means the “base of the exposed portion of the bridge pin†- i.e. where the bridge pin intersects the plane of the bridge cap top.

Terry - I wonder if you observed the dullness immediately after treating pin, and, if so, did you go back to it some time later to re-listen.  I think there's at least a chance that that dullness could be a result of the CA not having yet cured completely.

No, I did check it and it did persist.

Terry Farrell

On Sep 1, 2015, at 10:10 AM, David Skolnik < davids...@optonline.net> wrote:

OK friends, this has gotten downright confusing.  We seem to be considering multiple scenarios, such as:
- CA applied with string in-place
- CA applied with string off but pin in-place
- CA applied to hole with bridge pin removed, as in:

The aim is to end up with a hole filled clear to the top with cured CA, which will take multiple passes.

As for :

I apply the CA at the base of the bridge pin.

I can't figure that one out at all.

Can we clarify what we're talking about?

Terry - I wonder if you observed the dullness immediately after treating pin, and, if so, did you go back to it some time later to re-listen.  I think there's at least a chance that that dullness could be a result of the CA not having yet cured completely.

David Skolnik
Hastings on Hudson, NY

[Geoff Sykes]

Report:

Did the bridge pin/CA glue thing today. Three passes. On the plus side, the false beating strings are quiet once again. On the negative side, now that it's no longer masked by the false beating strings, it allowed the underlying instability due to high friction of the strings across the felt before it passes into the front duplex to become much more prominent. With the false beating strings dominating the tuning on this piano previously it took me close to two hours of just outright frustration to get it to a point where I wasn't embarrassed to consider it as good as it gets. I was exhausted at the end of it. But today, that time was down to just under 90 minutes. The instability is still a struggle, but as I have done before, a little Prolube into that felt and it eases up pretty nicely. I don't outright hate this piano anymore. Next time I predict it will be a normal 60 - 75 minute job. (- whew -)

Thanks --

-- GS

[Ron Nossaman]

On 9/8/2015 11:38 PM, Geoff Sykes wrote:
> Report:
>
> Did the bridge pin/CA glue thing today. Three passes. On the plus side,
> the false beating strings are quiet once again. On the negative side,
> now that it's no longer masked by the false beating strings, it allowed
> the underlying instability due to high friction of the strings across
> the felt before it passes into the front duplex to become much more
> prominent. With the false beating strings dominating the tuning on this
> piano previously it took me close to two hours of just outright
> frustration to get it to a point where I wasn't embarrassed to consider
> it as good as it gets. I was exhausted at the end of it. But today, that
> time was down to just under 90 minutes. The instability is still a
> struggle, but as I have done before, a little Prolube into that felt and
> it eases up pretty nicely. I don't outright hate this piano anymore.
> Next time I predict it will be a normal 60 - 75 minute job. (- whew -)

Good. Any problems with glue on the strings producing dire consequences?
Ron N

[da...@piano.plus.com]

> Report:
>
> Did the bridge pin/CA glue thing today. Three passes. On the plus side,
> the
> false beating strings are quiet once again. On the negative side, now that
> it's no longer masked by the false beating strings, it allowed the
> underlying instability due to high friction of the strings across the felt
> before it passes into the front duplex to become much more prominent. With
> the false beating strings dominating the tuning on this piano previously
> it
> took me close to two hours of just outright frustration to get it to a
> point where I wasn't embarrassed to consider it as good as it gets. I was
> exhausted at the end of it. But today, that time was down to just under 90
> minutes. The instability is still a struggle, but as I have done before, a
> little Prolube into that felt and it eases up pretty nicely. I don't
> outright hate this piano anymore. Next time I predict it will be a normal
> 60 - 75 minute job. (- whew -)
>
> Thanks --
>
> -- GS

Thanks for the report, Geoff. Good to know that the CA technique on
bridge pins proved effective for you. It's a thing I'm going to bear in
mind, should I ever get back to tuning. I've certainly found Protek CLP
very helpful for under-string felt.

Best regards,

David.

[Geoff Sykes]

Not sure I would call it dire, but I did notice a slight change. Maybe.  I only treated the bridge pins above the tenor break. The piano is very harsh and bright normally, which is how they want it. It's is a very live choir rehearsal room and I'm told that it's the only way the piano can be heard when everyone, (100+), is singing. The very tiny bit of CA glue that spread to parts not defined as bridge pin hole appears to have taken that high screachyness out of the notes that hurt my ears when I was in there by myself tuning. I liked the change, actually, subtle though it may be. On the other hand, I may be just imagining this because after tuning, as I went chromatically up from the bass break and through the treble break I did not hear the change I thought I might expect based on what I think I heard after treatment but before tuning. 

-- GS

[Joseph Garrett]

Geoff,

It's been my experience that it will change a bit once the CA has completely cured. That, I think, takes a few days, imo.

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Sykes
Sent: Sep 8, 2015 10:20 PM
To: pianotech

[Regi Hedahl]

Geoff,

Glad to hear how it saved you time on the tuning. This has been my experience as well. I now treat the bridge pins on the undamped section of most PSO that I tune now. I start with that before I even begin tuning the piano. I find that section the most bothersome and since the dampers are not in the way, I can get in there and apply the CA glue without removing the action. Typical time for doing this, a 50 cent pitch raise and final tuning is 90 minutes. This then leaves me some extra time to do other things to the piano.

Regi Hedahl

[Geoff Sykes]

Has the change you notice been worthy of correction? If yes, what do you do?

-- GS

[Ron Nossaman]

On 9/9/2015 12:20 AM, Geoff Sykes wrote:
> Not sure I would call it dire, but I did notice a slight change. Maybe.
> I only treated the bridge pins above the tenor break. The piano is
> very harsh and bright normally, which is how they want it. It's is a
> very live choir rehearsal room and I'm told that it's the only way the
> piano can be heard when everyone, (100+), is singing. The very tiny bit
> of CA glue that spread to parts not defined as bridge pin hole appears
> to have taken that high screachyness out of the notes that hurt my ears
> when I was in there by myself tuning. I liked the change, actually,
> subtle though it may be. On the other hand, I may be just imagining this
> because after tuning, as I went chromatically up from the bass break and
> through the treble break I did not hear the change I thought I might
> expect based on what I think I heard after treatment but before tuning.
>
> -- GS

Interesting. I wonder if it was just the absence of noise that prompted
the CA treatment in the first place? That seems plausible. The few times
I've done this it was sort of ahhh, that's better.
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Geoff,

I will assume you are referring to a possible "dulling" of tone/power from the residue of the CA. What little I've noted, in that regard, I consider a benefit since most of the "patients" were brassy, glassy, edgy, pick an adjective. In short the tone is more musical and the power is more than sufficient.<G>

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Sykes
Sent: Sep 9, 2015 9:50 AM
To: pianotech
Cc: joega...@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Bridge pins and CA glue

Has the change you notice been worthy of correction? If yes, what do you do?

-- GS

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 10:45:10 PM UTC-7, Joseph Garrett wrote:

Geoff,

It's been my experience that it will change a bit once the CA has completely cured. That, I think, takes a few days, imo.

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Sykes
Sent: Sep 8, 2015 10:20 PM
To: pianotech
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re: Bridge pins and CA glue

Not sure I would call it dire, but I did notice a slight change. Maybe.  I only treated the bridge pins above the tenor break. The piano is very harsh and bright normally, which is how they want it. It's is a very live choir rehearsal room and I'm told that it's the only way the piano can be heard when everyone, (100+), is singing. The very tiny bit of CA glue that spread to parts not defined as bridge pin hole appears to have taken that high screachyness out of the notes that hurt my ears when I was in there by myself tuning. I liked the change, actually, subtle though it may be. On the other hand, I may be just imagining this because after tuning, as I went chromatically up from the bass break and through the treble break I did not hear the change I thought I might expect based on what I think I heard after treatment but before tuning. 

-- GS

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 9:47:21 PM UTC-7, Ron Nossaman wrote:

On 9/8/2015 11:38 PM, Geoff Sykes wrote:
> Report:
>
> Did the bridge pin/CA glue thing today. Three passes. On the plus side,
> the false beating strings are quiet once again. On the negative side,
> now that it's no longer masked by the false beating strings, it allowed
> the underlying instability due to high friction of the strings across
> the felt before it passes into the front duplex to become much more
> prominent. With the false beating strings dominating the tuning on this
> piano previously it took me close to two hours of just outright
> frustration to get it to a point where I wasn't embarrassed to consider
> it as good as it gets. I was exhausted at the end of it. But today, that
> time was down to just under 90 minutes. The instability is still a
> struggle, but as I have done before, a little Prolube into that felt and
> it eases up pretty nicely. I don't outright hate this piano anymore.
> Next time I predict it will be a normal 60 - 75 minute job. (- whew -)

Good. Any problems with glue on the strings producing dire consequences?
Ron N

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Geoff Sykes]

> the absence of noise that prompted the CA treatment

???

The CA treatment got rid of the noise. 

-- GS

[Geoff Sykes]

Oh, good. That's exactly what I experienced. 

-- GS

On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 10:04:43 AM UTC-7, Joseph Garrett wrote:

Geoff,

I will assume you are referring to a possible "dulling" of tone/power from the residue of the CA. What little I've noted, in that regard, I consider a benefit since most of the "patients" were brassy, glassy, edgy, pick an adjective. In short the tone is more musical and the power is more than sufficient.<G>

Best,

Joe

[Ron Nossaman]

On 9/9/2015 12:23 PM, Geoff Sykes wrote:
> > the absence of noise that prompted the CA treatment
>

> ???
>
> The CA treatment got rid of the noise.

Yes, that's the point. Without the noise, it wouldn't be as clangy. It
would be cleaner - "duller" in comparison. Nothing taken from the tone
except the extraneous noise, as expected. It couldn't sound the same
unless the CA treatment failed, could it?
Ron N

[Geoff Sykes]

Thanks for the clarification. Now that makes sense. Just the same, it wasn't the absence of noise that prompted the CA treatment, it was the presence of noise. With the CA treatment the noise is now gone and the tone is cleaner. 

-- GS

[Ron Nossaman]

On 9/9/2015 1:03 PM, Geoff Sykes wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification. Now that makes sense. Just the same, it
> wasn't the absence of noise that prompted the CA treatment, it was the
> presence of noise. With the CA treatment the noise is now gone and the
> tone is cleaner.

Yes Jeff, I understand that. False beats bad. Yes. CA make false beats
go away. Yes. Put CA on, false beats go away. Yes. Sound now less noisy
because false beats gone. Yes.

Ron N

[Geoff Sykes]

CA glue, gooood.

False beats, baaaad.

-- GS - (not the monster)