Improperly Bridge Notching

[Regi Hedahl]

A concert hall in my area has these two Steinway D's that have tonality problems from about A4 and higher.  The tone is plunky and lots of false beats.  Upon closer inspection, I found 

that the bridge notching begins behind the pins rather than at the center of the pins.  Both pianos have been rebuilt and I have never seen factory non-filed bridge pins.  This leads me to believe that it was notched this way when they were rebuilt.   Could this notching be a contributing factor for the tonality issues these pianos suffer from?

Regi

[Joseph Garrett]

YES! Who ever did the rebuild is not too bright imo.

Best,
Joe

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Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Regi Hedahl]

Joe,

I was called to check up on these pianos and see what I could do because the pianist is not happy,.  It didn't take me long to discover this issue and I pointed it out to the pianist.  I told the pianist that there would be little improvement until this was fixed.  I'm thinking it can be fixed by pulling out the bridge pins, plugging the holes with epoxy and then redrilling the the bridge pin holes farther back.  I suspect that the Capo bar also needs reshaping so restringing would also be needed.  It would definitely be a lot of work and the epoxy filled holes would end up looking like a hack job that a competitor would use as an opportunity to tarnish my reputation.  Furthermore, the person who tunes this piano owns the company who rebuilt this piano.  I'm thinking of refusing to fix the piano and let the pianist suffer with this.  I have better things to do than fall into this mess!

Regi

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 11:15:08 PM UTC-6, Joseph Garrett wrote:

YES! Who ever did the rebuild is not too bright imo.

Best,
Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Regi Hedahl
Sent: Nov 19, 2019 7:46 PM
To: pianotech
Subject: [pianotech] Improperly Bridge Notching

A concert hall in my area has these two Steinway D's that have tonality problems from about A4 and higher.  The tone is plunky and lots of false beats.  Upon closer inspection, I found 

that the bridge notching begins behind the pins rather than at the center of the pins.  Both pianos have been rebuilt and I have never seen factory non-filed bridge pins.  This leads me to believe that it was notched this way when they were rebuilt.   Could this notching be a contributing factor for the tonality issues these pianos suffer from?

Regi

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[Stephen Powell]

Hi Regi,

 

Yikes!  Given the quality of the bridge notching, I’d be suspicious of the rest of the rebuild.  What’s the downbearing and crown like?  State of the action?  I’d report my findings but leave it to the venue to follow up with the tuner/rebuilder.

 

Regards,

Stephen

 

 

---

From: pian...@googlegroups.com <pian...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Regi Hedahl <piano...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 4:42:44 PM
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Improperly Bridge Notching

 

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[Joseph Garrett]

Regi,

Given the circumstances, I'd approach this mess exactly as you have described. The bridge(s) need to be recapped. It could be done as you've described, but I would include a rescaling in hopes that one could avoid a recapping. Anything less would be unsatisfactory imo.

[Larry Fisher RPT]

My vote is with Stephan and Joe.  Don't touch it.  If the owners are willing to get the job done right, and willing to pay the price, then I'd move forward.  They'd have to ignore the fact that they already paid to have that work done once and this is the result.  You'll have some verbal traffic somewhere in the line of not trusting ANYONE to do the job right that goes with such a repair. 

I hate this part about this career. 

[Regi Hedahl]

Stephen,

The soundboard on this particular piano has no crown left and that includes the killer octave section.  I suspect that the board is pretty tired which is no surprise as this is an early 80's Steinway.  The action was recently rebuilt with all Renner parts.  17 mm knuckle distance shanks & flanges were installed and heavier Renner Blue hammers were used.  The pianist complained about the thin tone so I steamed these hammers and reshaped them.  I got some warmth out of them but I suspect it won't last very long.

Regi

[Joseph Garrett]

Regi,

You "Resurfaced" the hammers. You did not "reshape" them. The "Shape" of a hammer is dictated by the configuration of the molding, the inner core, the skiving of the main felt and the caul that the hammers are pressed into. If anything you filed the layers of felt to produce a consistant layer for even compression/expansion. <G>

I really wish techs would stop using that term.

The only hammer that can be "shaped" is one that has been saturated with lacquer or similar crap.

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Regi Hedahl
Sent: Nov 22, 2019 11:23 AM
To: pianotech
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Improperly Bridge Notching

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[Regi Hedahl]

Joe,

These hammers puffed up from steaming them.  

Regi

[Joseph Garrett]

Well no kidding! I'd've never thought! Of course they did! Still, ...you surfaced them, layer by layer. You did not "shape" them. If you had, then you would have cut uneven layers and cause many voicing problems.

Think about it.<G>

Best,

Joe

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[aartin...@optonline.net]

Hi Regi

 

Check that the bridge pins are not loose and are not bent too far and pinching the string too tight. Also make sure that the strings are snug to the bridge.

I have a very old screwdriver very dull. I place it on the bridge at the bend in the string and gently tap with my hand at the top of the screwdriver to mate strings with the bridge. So, look for loose pins and make sure the strings are in full contact with the bridge. I have heard of the top of the 4^th up to be called the Killer octaves. Plunky tone, make sure you don’t have blocked hammers.

Good luck, Aart

 

From: pian...@googlegroups.com <pian...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Regi Hedahl
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 10:47 PM
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [pianotech] Improperly Bridge Notching

 

A concert hall in my area has these two Steinway D's that have tonality problems from about A4 and higher.  The tone is plunky and lots of false beats.  Upon closer inspection, I found 

that the bridge notching begins behind the pins rather than at the center of the pins.  Both pianos have been rebuilt and I have never seen factory non-filed bridge pins.  This leads me to believe that it was notched this way when they were rebuilt.   Could this notching be a contributing factor for the tonality issues these pianos suffer from?

 

Regi

 

 

 

 

 

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[Joe Garrett]

Regi,

I think you are not thinking the whole process. The notching, (which is vertically slanted), should be slightly behind the pin center line. When the string is seated and brought to pitch, the string crushes the top surface, making the termination point at the center of the pin again. The pin is actually the termination point.

What is the crown situation? Your description points to a bad board imo. It's a Steinway! The likelihood is very good that the board is toast.

Best,

Joe Garrett

Captain of the Tool Police

Squares R I

gpianoworks.com

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/007a01d8e00e%242c7e0550%24857a0ff0%24%40optonline.net.

 

[dowel...@gmail.com]

I’m not sure if everyone realizes that the original message is from nearly 3 years ago. 

Tom Dowell

Milwaukee, WI

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 14, 2022, at 5:14 PM, Joe Garrett <joega...@earthlink.net> wrote:



Regi,

I think you are not thinking the whole process. The notching, (which is vertically slanted), should be slightly behind the pin center line. When the string is seated and brought to pitch, the string crushes the top surface, making the termination point at the center of the pin again. The pin is actually the termination point.

What is the crown situation? Your description points to a bad board imo. It's a Steinway! The likelihood is very good that the board is toast.

Best,

Joe Garrett

Captain of the Tool Police

Squares R I

gpianoworks.com

-----Original Message-----
From: <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Oct 14, 2022 1:47 PM
To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [pianotech] Improperly Bridge Notching

 

Hi Regi

 

Check that the bridge pins are not loose and are not bent too far and pinching the string too tight. Also make sure that the strings are snug to the bridge.

I have a very old screwdriver very dull. I place it on the bridge at the bend in the string and gently tap with my hand at the top of the screwdriver to mate strings with the bridge. So, look for loose pins and make sure the strings are in full contact with the bridge. I have heard of the top of the 4^th up to be called the Killer octaves. Plunky tone, make sure you don’t have blocked hammers.

Good luck, Aart

 

From: pian...@googlegroups.com <pian...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Regi Hedahl
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 10:47 PM
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [pianotech] Improperly Bridge Notching

 

A concert hall in my area has these two Steinway D's that have tonality problems from about A4 and higher.  The tone is plunky and lots of false beats.  Upon closer inspection, I found 

that the bridge notching begins behind the pins rather than at the center of the pins.  Both pianos have been rebuilt and I have never seen factory non-filed bridge pins.  This leads me to believe that it was notched this way when they were rebuilt.   Could this notching be a contributing factor for the tonality issues these pianos suffer from?

 

Regi

 

 

 

 

 

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[Joe Garrett]

Not according to the time stamp!

Best,

Joe

Captain of the Tool Police

Squares R I

gpianoworks.com

-----Original Message-----
From: <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Oct 15, 2022 2:40 PM
To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Improperly Bridge Notching

 

I’m not sure if everyone realizes that the original message is from nearly 3 years ago. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/531725A0-D01A-4E06-BB99-6118C7878139%40gmail.com.

 

[Horace Greeley]

Hi, Joe,

The time stamp on the original post reads:

Tuesday, November 19, 2019.

Kind regards.

Horace

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/fd677b0e-1a68-c1c5-84da-ee3dc2708348%40earthlink.net.

[Joe Garrett]

Horace,

Sorry, I missed that. Re-checked. You are absolutely correct.

Best,

Joe

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/nllmmlhqbv9ijkgve4dodfah.1666126645967%40sonic.net.

 

[Terry Farrell]

I’ve not messed with Steinway upright hammers much. I have a client with one and they wish to have the treble hammers voiced down to make it more mellow. What is the latest and greatest advise on this type of voicing?

Terry Farrell

[Allied PianoCraft]

I don’t want to start a “no you should never do that” conversation here, but what has worked for me was Downy wrinkle released.

High Point, NC
Al -


On Oct 27, 2022, at 6:02 AM, Terry Farrell <farrellpi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve not messed with Steinway upright hammers much. I have a client with one and they wish to have the treble hammers voiced down to make it more mellow. What is the latest and greatest advise on this type of voicing?

Terry Farrell

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[Patrick Draine]

And then, of course, there are needles! 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/DM4PR03MB69760A4623BA1A4AFD4F5234CE339%40DM4PR03MB6976.namprd03.prod.outlook.com.

[David Kroenlein]

I’ve found that hot water and alcohol applied with a syringe directly to the strike point works well, although that might be a little excessive for Steinway hammers  I use that for older Asian models

On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 04:08 Terry Farrell <farrellpi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve not messed with Steinway upright hammers much. I have a client with one and they wish to have the treble hammers voiced down to make it more mellow. What is the latest and greatest advise on this type of voicing?

Terry Farrell

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David kroenlein

[Joe Garrett]

Terry,

The first rule of voicing is to analyze what age and process was used to make the hammers. Pre-70's are one thing. Then up to the 90's is the next window. (and the worst to deal with!) From there up to the present would be "standard voicing operations" would do the trick imo.

Best,

Joe

Captain of the Tool Police

Squares R I

gpianoworks.com

-----Original Message-----
From: <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Oct 27, 2022 2:08 AM
To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>