Steinway M Scale

[Regi Hedahl]

I'm looking for the scaling for a Steinway M. I don't have a way to accurately measure the string diameters with the strings in the piano. I would like to analyze the scaling before tearing her down.

Regi Hedahl

piano...@gmail.com

[a4...@aol.com]

hmm, I have never had trouble measuring the strings in a piano. Why
is it a problem?

Ed Foote RPT

-----Original Message-----
From: Regi Hedahl <piano...@gmail.com>
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:06 pm
Subject: [ptech] Steinway M Scale


I'm looking for the scaling for aSteinway M. I don't have a way to
accurately measure the stringdiameters with the strings in the piano.
I would like to analyze thescaling before tearing her down.


Regi Hedahl
piano...@gmail.com

[Regi Hedahl]

Ed,

What type of measuring device do you use?  My micrometer is too bulky and my calipers are not accurate enough.

Regi Hedahl

piano...@gmail.com

[Ron Nossaman]

On 7/11/2013 9:59 PM, Regi Hedahl wrote:
> Ed,
>
> What type of measuring device do you use? My micrometer is too bulky
> and my calipers are not accurate enough.

Something like this works very well.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Multi-Anvil-Micrometer-with-Friction-Thimble-0-1in-Range-0001in-Graduation-/161063087581?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25801baddd

Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Hmmm? That would require that the user knows how to read a real micrometer!

Joe Garrett, R.P.T.
Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
http://gpianoworks.com/


> [Original Message]
> From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
> To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: 7/11/2013 8:27:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [ptech] Steinway M Scale

[tnr...@aol.com]

Regi

 

Release the tension of the string, pull it up with a string hook, and you can get the micrometer on the string.

 

Wim Blees

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Regi Hedahl <piano...@gmail.com>
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 4:59 pm
Subject: Re: [ptech] Steinway M Scale

[Jon Page]

The plain wire scale is available in print, are you talking about bass strings? If you are looking for speaking lengths, you have to measure.

[a4...@aol.com]

-----Original Message-----
From: Regi Hedahl <piano...@gmail.com>
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:59 pm
Subject: Re: [ptech] Steinway M Scale

Ed,
>>What type of measuring device do you use?  My micrometer is too bulky
and my calipers are not accurate enough.
Regi Hedahl<<

I use a small Starrett micrometer. If you are going to restring, just
cut a string loose and measure it, or loosen it enough to pull up away
from the others.
Regards,

[AMari...@aol.com]

From Schaff,, current,, over 350 stringing scales.  Could the M be among them???

 

BOOK-A GUIDE TO RESTRINGING - Product Details

[Ron Nossaman]

On 7/12/2013 8:33 AM, AMari...@aol.com wrote:
> From Schaff,, current,, over 350 stringing scales. Could the M be
> among them???
> BOOK-A GUIDE TO RESTRINGING - Product Details

> <https://istore.schaffpiano.com/istore/product/1614>

There is some good information there, and some math for those interested
in learning something of the process, but lacking bass string data and
speaking lengths it's otherwise utterly useless for scale evaluation or
education. It's a pity that real scaling information for the hundreds of
piano makes and models out there isn't available to anyone wishing and
willing to study them and learn.
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Ron,
Unfortunately, it's been my experience, when this question is posed, the
poser really doesn't want to "study" anything, but just wants a quick
answer to the question. Going through all of the necessary steps to get the
numbers and run them through a program, (and actually studying the basic
ways to formulate the program), and then actually making rational decisions
for imrovements of a bad scale is furthest from their mind. The question
has been posted so often, that it's pathetic. Sheesh!
I hate to have such a negative approach to this, but it has proven to be
the case more often than not. Also, when I've offered to help them through
the process, they decline when they find out that the process requires
"work". (OMG! Gasp!)
Best Regards,
Joe

Joe Garrett, R.P.T.
Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
http://gpianoworks.com/


> [Original Message]
> From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
> To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>

> Date: 7/12/2013 7:08:25 AM

> Subject: Re: [ptech] Steinway M Scale
>

[Zeno Wood]

Regi, the string gauges are usually ink stamped on the plate by the tuning pins.  If it's an old piano, take a flashlight and get real close to see if you can see it.  Sometimes you can find it if you carefully wipe away old dirt with a pencil eraser.  And don't worry, most people here don't think you're lazy or pathetic.

-ZW

[Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft]

It takes a while to sink in, that manufacturers Do Not Design the best scales! They can all be improved upon. Thanks to Ron N & Joe G for helping me get there.

Regi, if you're going to remove the strings, it should be no problem to measure when you remove them. No need to measure in the piano.

Al -
High Point, NC

[Ron Nossaman]

On 7/12/2013 9:34 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> Ron, Unfortunately, it's been my experience, when this question is
> posed, the poser really doesn't want to "study" anything, but just
> wants a quick answer to the question.

Almost always, and they rarely seem to even comprehend the difference.
I've wasted a lot of hours trying to describe the "why" of something to
people, only to find that they haven't processed a bit of it and simply
believe what they believe regardless of logic or evidence. The rare
exceptions, which everyone believes includes them, are the only reason
to even try.

> Going through all of the
> necessary steps to get the numbers and run them through a program,
> (and actually studying the basic ways to formulate the program), and
> then actually making rational decisions for imrovements of a bad
> scale is furthest from their mind.

Scaling, and pretty much everything else.

> The question has been posted so
> often, that it's pathetic. Sheesh!

80% or more of the technically oriented traffic on these lists
qualifies. It's been covered repeatedly, or is dead simple to look up or
otherwise determine for themselves.

Education through personal effort wastes valuable time in which we might
be making money instead of learning something that will improve our
product and understanding and minimizing the time spent whining on list
that no one is answering our question. But I've had someone insist on
list that it's not possible for anyone to learn anything without being
specifically taught (trained) in every detail by someone else. There's
no hope of improvement against a mentality like that.
Ron N

[Ron Nossaman]

[Joseph Garrett]

Al,
There are times where one needs to take wire sizes IN the piano. One would
be if you were trying to find out why a piano has anomolies. Or, if you
were correcting a bad scale in a working piano, such as a GH-1. Key phrase:
Working Piano. We all have those,....teachers, serious students, night
clubs, etc. It is best to also, take the down bearing measurements too.
That should be with the tension on, so ya have to plan your process. And,
one needs to have the Correct Tool to do the Job!<G> Of course there are
"workarounds", but ya has to make the sweat flow imo. That was the point I
was so ineptly trying to convey.<G> I'm trying not to be such a crank, but
sometimes the newbies aren't really paying attention.<G> Ron, usually says
it far more diplomatically than I do.<G>
Best,

Joe

Joe Garrett, R.P.T.
Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
http://gpianoworks.com/


> [Original Message]

> From: Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft <alliedpi...@hotmail.com>
> To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: 7/12/2013 8:30:15 AM

> Subject: Re: [ptech] Steinway M Scale
>

> It takes a while to sink in, that manufacturers Do Not Design the best
scales! They can all be improved upon. Thanks to Ron N & Joe G for helping
me get there.
>
> Regi, if you're going to remove the strings, it should be no problem to
measure when you remove them. No need to measure in the piano.
>
> Al -
> High Point, NC
>
>
> On Jul 12, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Joseph Garrett <joega...@earthlink.net>

wrote:
>
> > Ron,
> > Unfortunately, it's been my experience, when this question is posed, the
> > poser really doesn't want to "study" anything, but just wants a quick

> > answer to the question. Going through all of the necessary steps to get

the
> > numbers and run them through a program, (and actually studying the basic
> > ways to formulate the program), and then actually making rational
decisions

> > for imrovements of a bad scale is furthest from their mind. The question

> > has been posted so often, that it's pathetic. Sheesh!

[Joseph Garrett]

Ouch! I'll take back the "...diplomacy" comment. <G>

Best,
Joe

Joe Garrett, R.P.T.
Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
http://gpianoworks.com/


> [Original Message]

> From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
> To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>

> Date: 7/12/2013 8:43:23 AM

> Subject: Re: [ptech] Steinway M Scale
>

> On 7/12/2013 9:34 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> > Ron, Unfortunately, it's been my experience, when this question is
> > posed, the poser really doesn't want to "study" anything, but just
> > wants a quick answer to the question.
>

> Almost always, and they rarely seem to even comprehend the difference.
> I've wasted a lot of hours trying to describe the "why" of something to
> people, only to find that they haven't processed a bit of it and simply
> believe what they believe regardless of logic or evidence. The rare
> exceptions, which everyone believes includes them, are the only reason
> to even try.
>
>

> > Going through all of the
> > necessary steps to get the numbers and run them through a program,
> > (and actually studying the basic ways to formulate the program), and
> > then actually making rational decisions for imrovements of a bad
> > scale is furthest from their mind.
>

> Scaling, and pretty much everything else.
>
>

> > The question has been posted so
> > often, that it's pathetic. Sheesh!
>

[Ron Nossaman]

On 7/12/2013 11:18 AM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> Ouch! I'll take back the "...diplomacy" comment. <G>

Did you see anything there that was inaccurate?
Ron N

[Ron Nossaman]

On 7/11/2013 9:59 PM, Regi Hedahl wrote:
>

> What type of measuring device do you use? My micrometer is too bulky
> and my calipers are not accurate enough.

This is what I use. Someone used to make these for sale, but I don't
remember who it was. By the time I decided I wanted one, they weren't
available any more, so I made my own. The multi anvil mic I posted is
probably more accurate (and the price is right on that one), but this is
very quick, quite adequate and better than I can do with calipers.
Ron N

[Isaac OLEG]

Just to mention.. Never had any success in proposing to exchange a few scales..

May be mm where not welcome... I was looking for a few ones to work on them with scaling spreadsheet, a few amateurs kindly send me some.

I also begin to translate a dedicated book on old scale analysis, from Peter Tholey. Interesting as the reason g apply to different era and sizes of pianos..

[Isaac OLEG]

An interesting point is the relation between iH and lenght, and possible "harmonicity" in regard of the available length.
Based on some "ideal" medium iH indeed.
Lenghts progression can then be evaluated in regard of the parameters it provides. Tension, stretch and iH.

[lcl...@yahoo.com]

On a lot of pianos, the gauge numbers stamped (or written in pencil) on the plate make no sense. That's why, during unstringing, I lay a snipped out section of a wire from each unison on duct tape, and then sandwich that in with another piece laid sticky side down on top, so I end up with a roll with nice, straightish wires sticking out the sides that are easy to polish with ScotchBrite(TM) and mic. Case in point: my 1925 Knabe Ampico upright has guage numbers written on the plate web that just don't add up when considering where the looped hitch pin ends are and such. Thumpe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

---

From: Zeno Wood <zeno...@gmail.com>;
To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>;
Cc: <joega...@earthlink.net>; <joega...@earthlink.net>;

Subject: Re: [ptech] Steinway M Scale

Sent: Fri, Jul 12, 2013 3:24:31 PM

[Joseph Garrett]

NOPE! Just more brutal than I'm known for.<G>
Best,

Joe

Joe Garrett, R.P.T.
Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
http://gpianoworks.com/


> [Original Message]
> From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
> To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>

> Date: 7/12/2013 9:54:50 AM

> Subject: Re: [ptech] Steinway M Scale
>

[jim ialeggio]

In recording scales, most of the replies discuss taking gauge
dimensions. In my own learning, accurately taking speaking length
measurements, that is taking them accurately & efficiently took my 5
years and about as many systems to come up with what I use now. We
might assume this is the easy part, but in my experience it was much
more recalcitrant than the gauge bit.

Jim Ialeggio

[Ron Nossaman]

Is true. Fortunately, precision in speaking length isn't anywhere nearly
as critical as diameters.
Ron N

[Al Guecia/Allied PianoCraft]

Please share. I'm always learning.

Al -
High Point, NC

[Ron Nossaman]

On 7/12/2013 3:02 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> NOPE! Just more brutal than I'm known for.<G>

Oh. It wasn't intended to be either sweetness and light, or brutal. It
was just intended to be no BS accurate. I've said it all before, which
sort of illustrates the point if anyone noticed.

Ron N

[Dave Doremus]

This has worked well for me for 20 years... https://tinyurl.com/l7kz5av

-- Dave

[Joseph Garrett]

I did.<G>

Joe Garrett, R.P.T.
Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
http://gpianoworks.com/


> [Original Message]
> From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
> To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>

> Date: 7/12/2013 3:00:44 PM

> Subject: Re: [ptech] Steinway M Scale
>

[Joseph Garrett]

Beats the heck out of a Harbor Freight version!

Joe

 

Joe Garrett, R.P.T.

Captain of the Tool Police

Squares R I

http://gpianoworks.com/

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Dave Doremus

To: pian...@googlegroups.com

Sent: 7/12/2013 3:34:41 PM

Subject: Re: [ptech] Steinway M Scale

[Isaac OLEG]

IF you do measure all the A's  and the strings at the plate breaks you have yet enough information to have an idea of the scale.