Warped piano keys

[Geoff Sykes]

I have recently come across three upright pianos where the back of the keysticks have become horizontally warped enough to touch the neighboring key and cause sticky key problems. The keys are not warped anywhere else and there is no binding anywhere around the balance of front rail pin. Remove one of the warped keys and the neighbor plays just fine. These pianos are not old and they are name brands, not junk. 

My impulse is to just pull the offending keys and take a file to the parts that are touching. But I'm also thinking that that would not be the best form of attack. What other methods might I try to cure that warp. Steam, perhaps?

Looking for recommendations.

Thanks --

-- Geoff

[Paul Milkie]

Sand paper has always worked for me. Sand until the key is free and not rubbing is neighboring key.

[tnr...@aol.com]

Geoff

 

I was told that steaming the key while twisting it will work. But I spent almost an hour doing that once for one key and it didn't budge. Maybe I didn't get it hot enough, but I could stand so much heat.

 

So just sand the sides until they don't touch each other. If you have a belt sander or disc sander at home, it might be worth making a second trip.

 

Wim

[David Kroenlein]

If the key is really twisted, you can clamp the key in a vice, then attach a heavy clamp on the end you want straightened. Now grab your heat gun and a small level and proceed 

[Mark Potter]

Geoff - follow your impulse.  Just sand/file enough to allow clearance and move on to bigger fish.  No big deal, and no down side.  Some coarse sandpaper glued to a 'paddle' ( I use a paint stir stick) will make quick work of this.  A 'twisted' key, on the other hand, is another story.

Mark Potter

West Jefferson, OH

[Joseph Garrett]

With warped keys, I think the main issue is where is the capstan alignment. If the key is slightly warped and the capstan is still centered, (or almost), then I would sand or file. I carry a 4-in-hand rasp for those types of jobs. Then I finish with a sandpaper file w/120 grit.

If the capstan is way out of line, then my approach is steaming. I accomplish this by wrapping the key between the capstan and the balance rail with a wet rag approx.  1" - 1 1/2" wide. Thoroughly wetted and then heated with an iron or heat gun. I usually put the key into a vise and arrange it so that I can attach a wooden "Jorgensen" clamp in such a way as to torque the key in the direction needed to straighten the key. Over torqueing is necessary to get it to go to "straight". Leave in that position for several hours, preferably over night to allow the wood to dry. That is the secret - let the wood dry while under torque. Having learned this sort of thing in boat building I was taught to have patience in this regard. If it torques the other way too much simply add heat and it'll straighten out. Wood has a memory and likes equilibrium. <G>

The reason the keys are warping is because the factory is using "Winded Wood" instead of good straight grained unstressed tree wood.

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: tnr...@aol.com
Sent: Dec 14, 2013 7:35 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warped piano keys


Geoff

I was told that steaming the key while twisting it will work. But I spent almost an hour doing that once for one key and it didn't budge. Maybe I didn't get it hot enough, but I could stand so much heat.

So just sand the sides until they don't touch each other. If you have a belt sander or disc sander at home, it might be worth making a second trip.

Wim






-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Sykes
To: pianotech
Sent: Sat, Dec 14, 2013 4:49 pm
Subject: [pianotech] Warped piano keys


I have recently come across three upright pianos where the back of the keysticks have become horizontally warped enough to touch the neighboring key and cause sticky key problems. The keys are not warped anywhere else and there is no binding anywhere around the balance of front rail pin. Remove one of the warped keys and the neighbor plays just fine. These pianos are not old and they are name brands, not junk.


My impulse is to just pull the offending keys and take a file to the parts that are touching. But I'm also thinking that that would not be the best form of attack. What other methods might I try to cure that warp. Steam, perhaps?


Looking for recommendations.


Thanks --


-- Geoff

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Joseph Garrett]

David,

I'd strongly suggest you using some moisture with that.<G> Or?...Charred keys are a nice touch.<G>

Joe

 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Kroenlein
Sent: Dec 14, 2013 7:38 PM
To: "pian...@googlegroups.com"
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warped piano keys

If the key is really twisted, you can clamp the key in a vice, then attach
a heavy clamp on the end you want straightened. Now grab your heat gun and
a small level and proceed

On Saturday, December 14, 2013, Paul Milkie wrote:

> Sand paper has always worked for me. Sand until the key is free and not
> rubbing is neighboring key.
> On Dec 14, 2013 7:49 PM, "Geoff Sykes" >

> wrote:
>
>> I have recently come across three upright pianos where the back of the
>> keysticks have become horizontally warped enough to touch the neighboring
>> key and cause sticky key problems. The keys are not warped anywhere else
>> and there is no binding anywhere around the balance of front rail pin.
>> Remove one of the warped keys and the neighbor plays just fine. These
>> pianos are not old and they are name brands, not junk.
>>
>> My impulse is to just pull the offending keys and take a file to the
>> parts that are touching. But I'm also thinking that that would not be the
>> best form of attack. What other methods might I try to cure that warp.
>> Steam, perhaps?
>>
>> Looking for recommendations.
>>
>> Thanks --
>>
>> -- Geoff
>>
>

[Paul Bruesch]

Actually I think it would work MUCH better to use a VISE. Having a hard time visualizing clamping a key stick in an item or object or person of vice.

[Joseph Garrett]

Of course.<G> (Damned Spell Checkers! Grrrr!)

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Bruesch
Sent: Dec 14, 2013 7:56 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warped piano keys

Actually I think it would work MUCH better to use a VISE. Having a hard
time visualizing clamping a key stick in an item or object or person of
vice.

On Dec 14, 2013 9:38 PM, "David Kroenlein" wrote:
>
> If the key is really twisted, you can clamp the key in a vice, then
attach a heavy clamp on the end you want straightened. Now grab your heat
gun and a small level and proceed
>
>

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[pno...@aol.com]

I just checked the old Pianotech archives and found a technique that Ron Nossaman posted back in 2005 showing a method of cutting a kerf in the key diagonally down its length and inserting a shim.  This can correct the capstan position if the key has warped that much.

 

Gordon Large

Hallowell, ME

[pno...@aol.com]

the kerf is cut in the section between the capstan and key button. 

 

Gordon Large
pno...@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: pnotnr <pno...@aol.com>
To: pianotech <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 14, 2013 11:08 pm
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warped piano keys

[Paul Bruesch]

I seriously doubt that spell checkers alone are responsible for the preponderance of "vice" here on pianotech. And do not bother asking me for @#&* statistics.

[Ron Nossaman]

On 12/14/2013 10:08 PM, pno...@aol.com wrote:
> I just checked the old Pianotech archives and found a technique that Ron
> Nossaman posted back in 2005 showing a method of cutting a kerf in the
> key diagonally down its length and inserting a shim. This can correct
> the capstan position if the key has warped that much.
> Gordon Large
> Hallowell, ME

Or go the other direction and clamp the gap closed with glue. That's my
preference. Instead of dinking around with heat and moisture for two
days, I was done in 20 minutes.

Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Touche'<G>

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Bruesch
Sent: Dec 14, 2013 8:18 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warped piano keys

I seriously doubt that spell checkers alone are responsible for the
preponderance of "vice" here on pianotech. And do not bother asking me for
@#&* statistics.

On Dec 14, 2013 10:05 PM, "Joseph Garrett" wrote:

> Of course. (Damned Spell Checkers! Grrrr!)

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Bruesch
> Sent: Dec 14, 2013 7:56 PM
> To: pian...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warped piano keys
>
> Actually I think it would work MUCH better to use a VISE. Having a hard
> time visualizing clamping a key stick in an item or object or person of
> vice.
>
> On Dec 14, 2013 9:38 PM, "David Kroenlein" wrote:
> >
> > If the key is really twisted, you can clamp the key in a vice, then
> attach a heavy clamp on the end you want straightened. Now grab your heat
> gun and a small level and proceed
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Captain of the Tool Police
> Squares R Igpianoworks.com
>
>

[Geoff Sykes]

Fortunately the key is not twisted, just bending to one side. Everyone's suggestions involve tools, etc., that I have with me all the time. Fortunately the capstans can only move left or right about 2mm or so because if the key bent further than that it would just lock against its neighbor. ±2mm is close enough to centered for me in this kind of situation. Nice to learn that, for a change, brute force is an acceptable solution. Thanks to all.

-- G

[Isaac OLEG]

I have been told the keys hammered on a rounded shape to bow them. Did not have much success myself doing so.

[David Kroenlein]

Sorry about that guys! One little letter can make a big difference!

Sent from my iPhone

[Paul Bruesch]

Think of it this way... Vice Grips would be properly known as "Handcuffs"...

[Terry Farrell]

Where on earth do you come up with this stuff Joe?  Where on earth, or should I ask what orifice did you pull "Winded Wood" out of? I have my suspicions.......  ;-)

Terry Farrell

B.S. Forestry

On Dec 14, 2013, at 10:49 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:

SNIP

[Joseph Garrett]

Terry,

I would suggest you do some research. I've been working wood since I was 8, in one form or another. It has been my life's other "passion".

Have you ever gotten a slab of wood and done a re-saw. It then went whacko on you? You planed it and trued it. Come back later and the damned thing was whacko again? That's winded wood. Or to put it another way, a piece of wood with cellular torque. The stuff has a memory! I am not making it up. If you'd like, I have a slab of Honduras Mahogany that has that problem. I'll be glad to give it to you and you can play with it to your hearts content. It is useless for anything other than an exercise in frustration. It's been my experience that steaming will not even cure the problem. It will ease it, but not cure it.  Oh, I bought it from Woodcrafters.<G>

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Farrell
Sent: Dec 15, 2013 4:24 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warped piano keys

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Terry Farrell]

Yes I have experienced wood with internal stresses that cause it to warp every-which-way when cut. But Winded Wood? Where does that term come from? Keep in mind that this forum is for general audiences.  ;-)

Terry Farrell

[Joseph Garrett]

Terry,

The best example I can give is Shore Pines that lean into the onshore, (as in mostly constant), flow of wind. Those trees are the extreme example of the phenomenon. I do not recall where I read about it, as it's been a long time since. (Age = Memory loss.<G>) I do recall discussing it with Del way back when.<G>

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Farrell
Sent: Dec 15, 2013 6:34 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warped piano keys

Yes I have experienced wood with internal stresses that cause it to warp every-which-way when cut. But Winded Wood? Where does that term come from? Keep in mind that this forum is for general audiences. ;-)

Terry Farrell

On Dec 15, 2013, at 8:59 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:

> Terry,
> I would suggest you do some research. I've been working wood since I was 8, in one form or another. It has been my life's other "passion".
> Have you ever gotten a slab of wood and done a re-saw. It then went whacko on you? You planed it and trued it. Come back later and the damned thing was whacko again? That's winded wood. Or to put it another way, a piece of wood with cellular torque. The stuff has a memory! I am not making it up. If you'd like, I have a slab of Honduras Mahogany that has that problem. I'll be glad to give it to you and you can play with it to your hearts content. It is useless for anything other than an exercise in frustration. It's been my experience that steaming will not even cure the problem. It will ease it, but not cure it. Oh, I bought it from Woodcrafters.

> Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Farrell
> Sent: Dec 15, 2013 4:24 PM
> To: pian...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warped piano keys
>
> Where on earth do you come up with this stuff Joe? Where on earth, or should I ask what orifice did you pull "Winded Wood" out of? I have my suspicions....... ;-)
>
> Terry Farrell
> B.S. Forestry
>
> On Dec 14, 2013, at 10:49 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
>
> > SNIP
> > The reason the keys are warping is because the factory is using "Winded Wood" instead of good straight grained unstressed tree wood.
> > Best,
> > Joe
>
> Captain of the Tool Police
> Squares R I
> gpianoworks.com

[Ron Nossaman]

On 12/15/2013 8:38 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> Terry,
>

> The best example I can give is Shore Pines that lean into the onshore,
> (as in mostly constant), flow of wind. Those trees are the extreme
> example of the phenomenon. I do not recall where I read about it, as
> it's been a long time since. (Age = Memory loss.<G>) I do recall
> discussing it with Del way back when.<G>

Reaction wood, I think, is what it's typically called.
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Ron,
Thank you for the clarification. You are absolutely correct. I found several "hits" in that regard. The most informative was a "Bowyer's", which was looking at it from the standpoint of making Hunting Bows. It even suggested the correct way of felling such a tree safely. Most interesting.
Back to the piano keys. What I had intended was that whatever you do to those warped keys, if the key wood is Reaction wood, the key will continue to warp and have problems no matter what you do to it. I have seen a few examples of such in poorly made pianos, such a Horugels and a few Chinese pianos.
Thanks again,
Joe

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
>Sent: Dec 15, 2013 7:05 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warped piano keys
>

[Isaac OLEG]

Why would defective wood be used? I most of the time the warping must be due to the normal deformation of the wood (toward the heart as do all planks)

No? Also on old pianos with lime tree or basswood, some are warping easily with time and moisture exposition

[Ron Nossaman]

On 12/16/2013 12:24 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> Ron, Thank you for the clarification. You are absolutely correct. I
> found several "hits" in that regard. The most informative was a
> "Bowyer's", which was looking at it from the standpoint of making
> Hunting Bows.

You're welcome. The easiest way to check these things is to look at the
reference we all ought to already have had for many years. Any idea what
that might be?
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

One that comes to mind is Hoadley's book.

Joe


-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
>Sent: Dec 16, 2013 10:34 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warped piano keys
>

[Ron Nossaman]

On 12/16/2013 12:34 PM, Ron Nossaman wrote:
> On 12/16/2013 12:24 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
>> Ron, Thank you for the clarification. You are absolutely correct. I
>> found several "hits" in that regard. The most informative was a
>> "Bowyer's", which was looking at it from the standpoint of making
>> Hunting Bows.
>
> You're welcome. The easiest way to check these things is to look at the
> reference we all ought to already have had for many years. Any idea what
> that might be?
> Ron N

Hey, I just learned that dimethyl sulfoxide can be used to plasticize
wood for bending and forming. Being a wood byproduct, it makes sense. It
just hadn't occurred to me.

Cool!
Ron N

[Ron Nossaman]

On 12/16/2013 12:44 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> One that comes to mind is Hoadley's book.
> Joe

Nope, the free one, courtesy of the Forest Products Laboratory. Wood
Handbook, Wood as an Engineering Material. It's available online, or has
been for a long time, with a little looking, or I can attach the 2010
version. It's about 1.5M, which is a long download for some. If anyone
has a url to a newer version, please post it.

Ron N

[Ron Nossaman]

Oh crap, I'm sorry, that's 15M. Google it.
Ron N

[paul bruesch]

Given that keyboards are made from wide (presumably edge-glued?) planks, how is it that so often the warped key is just that, a singular key? If it's an issue of reaction wood, I'd fully expect a lot more adjacent keys to be warped but I've never observed that.

On Monday, December 16, 2013, Joseph Garrett wrote:

Ron,
Thank you for the clarification. You are absolutely correct. I found several "hits" in that regard. The most informative was a "Bowyer's", which was looking at it from the standpoint of making Hunting Bows. It even suggested the correct way of felling such a tree safely. Most interesting.
Back to the piano keys. What I had intended was that whatever you do to those warped keys, if the key wood is Reaction wood, the key will continue to warp and have problems no matter what you do to it. I have seen a few examples of such in poorly made pianos, such a Horugels and a few Chinese pianos.
Thanks again,
Joe

--

Sent from Gmail Mobile on my iPad mini

[Joseph Garrett]

Ron,
What would the application be in our industry? Just curious. Don't think I'd put it in proximity of piano wire, given my experiences of the past with the stuff.
Best,

Joe


-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
>Sent: Dec 16, 2013 10:51 AM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warped piano keys
>

>On 12/16/2013 12:34 PM, Ron Nossaman wrote:

>> On 12/16/2013 12:24 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
>>> Ron, Thank you for the clarification. You are absolutely correct. I
>>> found several "hits" in that regard. The most informative was a
>>> "Bowyer's", which was looking at it from the standpoint of making
>>> Hunting Bows.
>>

>> You're welcome. The easiest way to check these things is to look at the
>> reference we all ought to already have had for many years. Any idea what
>> that might be?
>> Ron N
>
>
>Hey, I just learned that dimethyl sulfoxide can be used to plasticize
>wood for bending and forming. Being a wood byproduct, it makes sense. It
>just hadn't occurred to me.
>
>Cool!
>Ron N

[Ron Nossaman]

On 12/16/2013 1:12 PM, Joseph Garrett wrote:
> Ron, What would the application be in our industry?

Didn't claim there was one, just that I learned DMSO can be used to
plasticize wood. Haven't you ever found it interesting to learn
something for which you had no immediate use, like Elm trees speak no
known language (though cottonwoods and poplars are very talkative)?
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

LOL O.K. I'll admit to that. Just thought you might have an application in mind.<G> Possibly a "Shape Shifter" piano?<G>

Best,
Joe


-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net>
>Sent: Dec 16, 2013 12:08 PM
>To: pian...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warped piano keys
>

[Isaac OLEG]

My first action is to plane the back of the key indeed if it sound reasonable. 

For mortises I use a frame build in hard wood where all the keys can be clamped tight together, with wedges. It does not guarantee that the keys will not warp when moistened but it limits the trouble with lime wood.

I avoid excessive moistening to unglue the mortises cloth with that type of wood.

[Isaac OLEG]

I have to do a few today,  I will use a heat gun and moistened cloth, the key clamped in a vice with some piece for visual reference when possible .

The idea is to have one hand free and wave the key until I feel the wood is softened by heat. (as for hammer shanks)

Clamping the key on a flat surface is not enough in my experience, the bending have to be a little more than the wanted result.

But that may depend of the type of wood, probably.

Protecting the mortise region is often necessary (with a small hand vise, that can be used for leverage) 

[Isaac OLEG]

I believe that adding some alcohol to the water used for moistening make it more efficient. 

Now I have no clue if the alcohol by itself have any effect as a softening agent .

DO someone know something about ? Thanks.

[Euphonious Thumpe]

Alcohol helps the water permeate the wood. But I have always had good results just by clamping a heat gun in a vyse and waving the dry key back and forth over it while twisting in the direction I want it to go (plus a little more) then continue holding in twisted state until cool. That's all. If anyone knows why this shouldn't work as well as it seems to, please let me know. Thumpe Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

---

From: Isaac OLEG <isaac...@gmail.com>;
To: <pian...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: [pianotech] Re: Warped piano keys
Sent: Tue, Dec 17, 2013 11:28:29 AM

[Isaac OLEG]

For bowing it seem that moistening only then forcing slightly the key the opposite direction without heating works also.