Steinway?!

[Joe Garrett]

It's been a while since I've had the dubious honor of rebuilding a Steinway Action.

I prefer the New York Improved Hammer Shanks and Flanges for the round rather then hex shanks.

So? I called Steinway  parts and  got a very RUDE AWAKENING! The lovely price for those aforementioned? $1,100.00!! YIKES!

The most recent price list I have on file is from 1995. The cost at that time was $317.00.

I realize our economy has taken some serious hits through that period, but ??!! "$1,100.00"?! Something is definitely off and I'm wondering if any of you have a logical explanation for this huge jump in prices?

I suspect it has to do with S&S trying to get us rebuilders to cease and desist on their most glorious instrument. The decal thing I can live with, but this? Really gets under my skin.

I am aware that S&S now owns Renner.

Any explanations are gratefully accepted.

Best,

Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[tnr...@aol.com]

Hi Joe

This has been discussed on various chat rooms. There is no explanation other than, as you suspect, Steinway wants to discourage us to rebuild their pianos. I also think that they have decided to get out of the parts business, especially when it comes to parts when rebuilding pianos. 

I've been getting my parts from Melanie Brooks, with Abel hammers and Tokiwa parts. But you can also call Renner USA and get parts from them. Or try WNG parts. 

Wim

To: pian...@googlegroups.com <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 7, 2021 10:35 am
Subject: [pianotech] Steinway?!

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[William Monroe]

Yes, and order the shanks from Renner USA, Hamburg Execution (17mm knuckle spread). You won't be able to get the round ones you like, but the cost (for the same exact part) is 1/2 what $&$ charges.

William R. Monroe, RPT

[Joe Garrett]

Wim,

Well! It's obvious that I have not kept up with the continual movement of "chat rooms"! My loss, I guess. I shall continue to be the 'puter dufus I suspect.<G> My business has been, essentially, shut down for over a year. I've suffered some health issues that are, just now, being resolved,....somewhat.

S&S is definitely shooting themselves in the foot on this account. I, most certainly, will not endeavor to promote them in any way, because of their crappy attitude towards us rebuilders. I guess I'll see what transpires when I go for some Renner parts in the coming week.

Tis' a wacky world we live in.

Best Regards,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: tnrwim via pianotech
Sent: Mar 7, 2021 12:41 PM
To: "pian...@googlegroups.com"
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Steinway?!

Hi Joe

This has been discussed on various chat rooms. There is no explanation other than, as you suspect, Steinway wants to discourage us to rebuild their pianos. I also think that they have decided to get out of the parts business, especially when it comes to parts when rebuilding pianos. 

I've been getting my parts from Melanie Brooks, with Abel hammers and Tokiwa parts. But you can also call Renner USA and get parts from them. Or try WNG parts. 

Wim

To: pian...@googlegroups.com <pian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 7, 2021 10:35 am
Subject: [pianotech] Steinway?!

It's been a while since I've had the dubious honor of rebuilding a Steinway Action.

I prefer the New York Improved Hammer Shanks and Flanges for the round rather then hex shanks.

So? I called Steinway  parts and  got a very RUDE AWAKENING! The lovely price for those aforementioned? $1,100.00!! YIKES!

The most recent price list I have on file is from 1995. The cost at that time was $317.00.

I realize our economy has taken some serious hits through that period, but ??!! "$1,100.00"?! Something is definitely off and I'm wondering if any of you have a logical explanation for this huge jump in prices?

I suspect it has to do with S&S trying to get us rebuilders to cease and desist on their most glorious instrument. The decal thing I can live with, but this? Really gets under my skin.

I am aware that S&S now owns Renner.

Any explanations are gratefully accepted.

Best,

Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

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[Joe Garrett]

William,

Thanks for the tip. Somehow there is something wrong with that, however. Since S&S owns Renner, it would seem that the price gouging would be on that side of the coin as well. Odd. I do like doing business with Renner USA. Always very helpful and timely.

BTW, I have a method of making the hex shanks round. It's a few extra steps in the overall process, but I believe necessary in producing the tone production of round shanks. I've been doing that for a long time.<G>

It just dawned on me, with your comment " the cost (for the same exact part) is 1/2 what $&$ charges." It appears they are just selling their parts for Retail. Just another slap in the face. Grrr!

Best Regards,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: William Monroe
Sent: Mar 7, 2021 1:01 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Steinway?!

Yes, and order the shanks from Renner USA, Hamburg Execution (17mm knuckle spread). You won't be able to get the round ones you like, but the cost (for the same exact part) is 1/2 what $&$ charges.

William R. Monroe, RPT

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 2:35 PM Joe Garrett <joega...@earthlink.net> wrote:

It's been a while since I've had the dubious honor of rebuilding a Steinway Action.

I prefer the New York Improved Hammer Shanks and Flanges for the round rather then hex shanks.

So? I called Steinway  parts and  got a very RUDE AWAKENING! The lovely price for those aforementioned? $1,100.00!! YIKES!

The most recent price list I have on file is from 1995. The cost at that time was $317.00.

I realize our economy has taken some serious hits through that period, but ??!! "$1,100.00"?! Something is definitely off and I'm wondering if any of you have a logical explanation for this huge jump in prices?

I suspect it has to do with S&S trying to get us rebuilders to cease and desist on their most glorious instrument. The decal thing I can live with, but this? Really gets under my skin.

I am aware that S&S now owns Renner.

Any explanations are gratefully accepted.

Best,

Joe

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

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[William Monroe]

Yes, it's not very user friendly on the part of $&$. I've seen it with other products too, you used to be able to buy Mapes bass strings from Steinway or from Mapes, guess which one cost WAY more? Same with tuning pins (Klinke or Denro), plate or case lacquer (Wurdack), and I suspect a whole host of other things. Agraffes? My impression is similar to yours. Steinway sells at retail to piano technicians.

William R. Monroe, RPT

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/1425119389.3976.1615155710146%40wamui-agami.atl.sa.earthlink.net.

[Allied PianoCraft]

Nothing will change for me. I’ve always purchased Renner parts from Lloyd and hammers from Ray at Ronsen. Better quality control in my opinion. In fact, just ordered Steinway shanks and reps from Renner. The order shipped the same day! Try and get that service from Steinway.

High Point, NC

Al -

On Mar 7, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Joe Garrett <joega...@earthlink.net> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/1425119389.3976.1615155710146%40wamui-agami.atl.sa.earthlink.net.

[Randy Mangus]

Would you care to share your method of making hexagonal shanks round?

Randy Mangus, RPT

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 7, 2021, at 6:15 PM, Allied PianoCraft <alliedpi...@outlook.com> wrote:

 Nothing will change for me. I’ve always purchased Renner parts from Lloyd and hammers from Ray at Ronsen. Better quality control in my opinion. In fact, just ordered Steinway shanks and reps from Renner. The order shipped the same day! Try and get that service from Steinway.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/BN8PR03MB49968AF7D12BACEF3218232ECE949%40BN8PR03MB4996.namprd03.prod.outlook.com.

[Joe Garrett]

William,

The one I'm working on is a 1940, (pre-wwII."M". It has angled wip foot, straight capstans and 16mm knuckle spread on the larger knuckle. What seems to match up is Renner's "improved Steinway" w/16.5mm spread, the angled wippen and the tall let-off buttons. I tried a bunch of combinations and that seems to be the only one that comes the closest. The keys have huge amount of lead in them. There are 5 - 1/2" slugs and 1 - 3/8" slug for every bass white key! I'll try to eliminate some by fine tuning it with "Weight Bench", but not looking like much lead will come out. Ever hopeful though.<G> Any suggestions?

[William Monroe]

I would try mocking up the Hamburg style at 17mm and matching wippen. If there’s room for the extra key dip, the lower ratio will help you eliminate some lead. And of course, going a little lighter with hammer weights will also help. With an M you should be able to go lighter and not compromise sound production. 

Weight bench is a helpful tool, too. I use that as well. 

William R. Monroe, RPT

On Mar 7, 2021, at 8:49 PM, Joe Garrett <joega...@earthlink.net> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/338700330.5382.1615171740458%40wamui-agami.atl.sa.earthlink.net.

[Joe Garrett]

Randy,

It is a bit difficult to describe, but I'll try. Take a piece of steel 1/4" is about right. (thinner will work,..sorta<G>) Drill a hole a bit undersize of the diameter you're shooting for. (i.e. over-size of 7/32" as that's about what we want for the end of the shank to hammer drilled hole mating) Follow that with a 1/2" drill bit into the hole drilled. Drill down until you percieve a burr forming on the flat side of the steel/hole. If the bit is sharp it will leave a very nice even burr. That burr is what does the cutting. You now have a wooden dowel die. <G>

Turn the plate upside down and lock it in a substancial machinist's vice. I suggest testing things with the scrap shanks we all have laying around in boxes, etc. Remove the flange from the shank. Put a center pin into the bushing of the shank. Make a small wooden block that will fit between the ears of the shank and proud of the depth of the shank slot. Put a slot in it, slightly higher than that of the centerpin.

I use a dead blow mallet for the next part. Start the shank into the die. The knurled part should not be trimmed by the "burr" but just pass through. With the Dead Blow mallet drive the shank straight down, (guide with your hand to keep all straight), to the depth wanted to be round. Remove from die and sand with 240 to clean up the slight fuzzy surface. Done.

I prefer this over the oval shank configuration in the high treble. Of course you could have both if you really want to lighten things up there.  I usually do this on all shanks from about mid "C" up, graduating like the olde companies used to do. (Pratt-Read had three different shanks back in the day.)

I started doing this because I couldn't find shanks of the proper diameter of some of the squares I've worked on. I like to have new shanks for any hammer replacement job. The most recent was making a bunch of 3/16" spinet shanks into 5/32" for an 184? Chickering Square Grand.

Hope that will give you some fun thing to play with in your shop. From one shop-rat to another.<G>

Best Regards,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Randy Mangus' via pianotech
Sent: Mar 7, 2021 3:25 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Steinway?!

Would you care to share your method of making hexagonal shanks round?

Randy Mangus, RPT

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 7, 2021, at 6:15 PM, Allied PianoCraft <alliedpi...@outlook.com> wrote:

 Nothing will change for me. I’ve always purchased Renner parts from Lloyd and hammers from Ray at Ronsen. Better quality control in my opinion. In fact, just ordered Steinway shanks and reps from Renner. The order shipped the same day! Try and get that service from Steinway.

High Point, NC

Al -

On Mar 7, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Joe Garrett <joega...@earthlink.net> wrote:



William,

Thanks for the tip. Somehow there is something wrong with that, however. Since S&S owns Renner, it would seem that the price gouging would be on that side of the coin as well. Odd. I do like doing business with Renner USA. Always very helpful and timely.

BTW, I have a method of making the hex shanks round. It's a few extra steps in the overall process, but I believe necessary in producing the tone production of round shanks. I've been doing that for a long time.<G>

It just dawned on me, with your comment " the cost (for the same exact part) is 1/2 what $&$ charges." It appears they are just selling their parts for Retail. Just another slap in the face. Grrr!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/1425119389.3976.1615155710146%40wamui-agami.atl.sa.earthlink.net.

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[Joe Garrett]

William,

Thanks. I'll try that. Sort of had it in my head that the Hamburg was a completely different beast geometry-wise.<G>

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: William Monroe
Sent: Mar 7, 2021 7:26 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Steinway?!

I would try mocking up the Hamburg style at 17mm and matching wippen. If there’s room for the extra key dip, the lower ratio will help you eliminate some lead. And of course, going a little lighter with hammer weights will also help. With an M you should be able to go lighter and not compromise sound production. 

Weight bench is a helpful tool, too. I use that as well. 

William R. Monroe, RPT

On Mar 7, 2021, at 8:49 PM, Joe Garrett <joega...@earthlink.net> wrote:



William,

The one I'm working on is a 1940, (pre-wwII."M". It has angled wip foot, straight capstans and 16mm knuckle spread on the larger knuckle. What seems to match up is Renner's "improved Steinway" w/16.5mm spread, the angled wippen and the tall let-off buttons. I tried a bunch of combinations and that seems to be the only one that comes the closest. The keys have huge amount of lead in them. There are 5 - 1/2" slugs and 1 - 3/8" slug for every bass white key! I'll try to eliminate some by fine tuning it with "Weight Bench", but not looking like much lead will come out. Ever hopeful though.<G> Any suggestions?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/338700330.5382.1615171740458%40wamui-agami.atl.sa.earthlink.net.

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[Joe Garrett]

William,

Tried the Hamburg shank/knuckle, (17mm), w/the wippen w/straight foot. All matches up.

Because the capstans are not angled, not seeing the original reason for the angled foot. The original hammer shank/knuckle is 17mm. So, just swapped the wippen configuration. Gives DW I'd like it to have. However, don't see where I'll lose much lead with that configuration, as it's pretty close to the original. Of course, the factory weigh-off's never were very consistant or rational imo.<G>

I'm planning on Ronsen Wurzen hammers w/silver maple, which should drop a few grams.<G>

[William Monroe]

Yes, the naming protocol is a little misleading, or at least not very helpful, as "Hamburg" execution is the same now as New York Improved, (NYI) at least in terms of geometry, if not shank cross section.

Glad they seem to work for you. Depending upon where your starting hammer mass is, you might do some additional shaping there, and remove more mass to help eliminate a lead or two. However, I've seen Steinways with more lead than I'd like from the early 1900's, with the old geometry 15.5mm knuckle spread, that played exceptionally well. Sometimes the apparently excessive leading doesn't make or break the performance of the piano. 

Once you get parts on, or at least a few samples, I'd be curious to see what Weight Bench has to offer on the subject.

William R. Monroe, RPT

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/1347015804.4934.1615232144086%40wamui-charming.atl.sa.earthlink.net.

[Joe Garrett]

William,

I've flagged this post, so I'll get back to you when I get all my little ducks together.<G> Thanks for the suggestions, etc.

Best,

Joe

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/CAOZORraG7HAgtZDdo6D_x6wKokgaqgOLJyuxLk0X99u-6k4z0w%40mail.gmail.com.

[William Monroe]

Happy to bounce ideas around, Joe.

William R. Monroe, RPT

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pianotech/65142472.12849.1615265195855%40wamui-marley.atl.sa.earthlink.net.