Piano in a cold space

[Victor Sirelson]

I am servicing a nice grand piano that is kept in a protected but unheated space. It is used several times each week when the space is heated, but otherwise the heat is not kept on. With winter at hand they have asked me to come up with a plan.

Does anyone have a suggestion for keeping the piano healthy without needing to heat the entire space? I plan to install a Dampp-chaser system but this will not keep the piano above freezing, and in fact the humidity tank may freeze. Perhaps there is a small minimal heat setup that could be used. Any experience with such a situation?

Feel free to email me or call: Victor Sirelson 914-522-3888

[Ron Nossaman]

I've tuned for a lot of small country churches where the piano sits in
40°-50°F except for Sunday services when they heat it to 75° or above
for the old folks. No Dampp Chasers. The pianos stay in tune
wonderfully. Then I tune the pastor's piano. He heats with wood, and the
piano has been destroyed as a result.

Ron N

[Victor Sirelson]

Thanks, Ron for the quick reply. 40°-50°F is no problem. But in New York State with temperatures getting much below freezing for some of the winter this may cause problems. This piano has been in this situation for years, but it was just restored and they would like to keep it safe from the ravages of a severe winter. No wood heat or high temperatures involved. Just turned up to 70°F or so for a few hours at a time. Similar to the country church scenario.

Victor

[richa...@comcast.net]

Ever thought of recommending a climate control system for his piano?

Rick Ucci
Uccipiano.com

> On Nov 17, 2015, at 12:45 PM, Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net> wrote:
>

[Douglas Gregg]

The loft of my barn is unheated on Long Island NY. It can get down to the 20's and the pianos do fine and stay in tune better than most pianos in houses. I agree with Ron. 

Doug Gregg

[Horace Greeley]

Hi, Victor,

What kind of a building is it? If it's church/similar, your options may be pretty limited.  Other than the apparently limited use of the piano, what needs does the building serve?

Things that come to mind are where the piano sits when it's not in use...sort of in place? Off to one side?‎ Permanent seating? Stage? Etc.

While we certainly do not have the climatic changes in California that occur in NY, I have a number of venues that are fairly low use (piano-wise); and have found several ways to deal with those issues. More information would help narrow things down.

Kind regards.

Horace
  Original Message  
From: Victor Sirelson
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 09:50
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Reply To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Piano in a cold space

[Will Truitt]

Victor, I live your problem in New Hampshire. I have an old colonial church with no insulation in the walls, where a few years ago they started shutting off the heat between Monday and Sunday, other than when I tuned it. That means that the piano might be a 10 degrees F. when they turn the heat on an hour or so before I would show up to tune it in January or so. All I would do as the piano continued to warm up as I tuned it would be to chase the pitch around the ivories for a couple of hours. The polyester sides of this Yamaha GC-1 would sweat. I finally refused to tune it in the winter months, as it was a waste of my time and their money.

Ron's right about the 40 or 50 degree puppies, I tune plenty of them. But pianos that sit in an unheated environment for days on end when the outdoor temperatures may be -15 or -20 at night - it's hard to imagine that this kind of yo yo effect is doing the instrument any good.

You could build a heated box to roll over the piano, but I wouldn't. I don't want to get blamed when the church burns down. They will want you to do something for next to nothing and requires no effort on their part, but aren't willing to do anything to protect their investment of many thousands of dollars on the rebuild.

I've had more than one good rebuild go back into the room with a wood stove. You can lead a horse to the watering hole, and you can flog it, but you still can't make it drink.

Will Truitt

-----Original Message-----
From: pian...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pian...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Sirelson
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:50 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Piano in a cold space

[Victor Sirelson]

Thanks, Horace,

The space is a converted upstairs of a barn, and the piano is enclosed in a separate room roughly 30’ x 30'. It is used primarily as a movement / dance space and the piano is used for classes and concerts. It is practically speaking stationary and simply opened up when it will be played. Otherwise the larger space is not used during the winter and is unheated. The piano room is well-insulated and will heat up quickly when it is used.

Victor

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/17/2015 11:50 AM, Victor Sirelson wrote:
> Thanks, Ron for the quick reply. 40°-50°F is no problem. But in New
> York State with temperatures getting much below freezing for some of
> the winter this may cause problems. This piano has been in this
> situation for years, but it was just restored and they would like to
> keep it safe from the ravages of a severe winter. No wood heat or
> high temperatures involved. Just turned up to 70°F or so for a few
> hours at a time. Similar to the country church scenario.

I assure you Kansas experiences sub zero temperatures. The point with
the churches is to spend as little as possible to keep it slightly above
freezing so the water lines won't freeze, and that works for the piano too.
Ron N

[Victor Sirelson]

This is what I am thinking as well. Since their budget is very tight they are reluctant to heat the room even minimally when it is not used, but this might be necessary to protect the piano.

Before this piano was rebuilt it was kept in a similar space but unheated as well. It was never a problem to tune it except that the pin block gradually became terrible, so the rebuild was necessary. Before this the piano held its tune remarkably well.

[Ron Nossaman]

On 11/17/2015 12:30 PM, Victor Sirelson wrote:
> This is what I am thinking as well. Since their budget is very tight
> they are reluctant to heat the room even minimally when it is not
> used, but this might be necessary to protect the piano.
>
> Before this piano was rebuilt it was kept in a similar space but
> unheated as well. It was never a problem to tune it except that the
> pin block gradually became terrible, so the rebuild was necessary.
> Before this the piano held its tune remarkably well.

You said the area was well insulated, so keeping it at 45° won't be
terribly expensive. Alternately, a cover and some heater bars wired into
a THERMOSTAT rather than a humidistat is a possibility. Heating the room
minimally is the best way, and safest. Or they can let it freeze
repeatedly and waste the rebuild like they wasted the piano originally.
Ron N

[Joseph Garrett]

Suggestions:

1. Make a "house" for the piano. Install several Dampp-chasers w/Humidistat inside the "house". Minimum electrical use and will help stave off the damned thing freezing.

2. Make/buy a floor length padded cover. Install Dampp-chasers. In this situation forget the Humidifier part of the system.

If the piano gets down to the range of freezing, it's going to have a rust problem. When they throw the heat on in the space, the cold metal will sweat!

If a room is kept at a minimum temperature of say 50 degrees, it costs less to raise that temperature to human comfort zone than it does to let the room freeze and then bring it all the way up to the human comfort zone. The whole room, (walls, floor &  ceiling get cold too!)

Have them check with their local Electrical provider for specifics!

Best,

joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Sirelson
Sent: Nov 17, 2015 9:23 AM
To: pianotech
Subject: [pianotech] Piano in a cold space

I am servicing a nice grand piano that is kept in a protected but unheated space. It is used several times each week when the space is heated, but otherwise the heat is not kept on. With winter at hand they have asked me to come up with a plan.

Does anyone have a suggestion for keeping the piano healthy without needing to heat the entire space? I plan to install a Dampp-chaser system but this will not keep the piano above freezing, and in fact the humidity tank may freeze. Perhaps there is a small minimal heat setup that could be used. Any experience with such a situation?

Feel free to email me or call: Victor Sirelson 914-522-3888

Captain of the Tool Police
Squares R I
gpianoworks.com

[Don]

Hi,

Quickly is the whole problem. Build a piano "garage" and install heating for that. Add a humidifier to keep the piano from drying out. My own personal choice would be a piano life saver system for the humidity side, and a 1500 watt heater with a "no freeze" setting.

Keeping the piano from freezing with drier rods would not "cut the mustard" where I live.

Go to the local weather history and find out what the low temperatures are. From that it should be possible to work out how many watts of heat need to be provided.

 

Regards,
Don Rose, 
mailto:pian...@yahoo.com http://www.donrose.ca/
Box 37181, Regina, SK S4S 7K4
306-539-0716

---

From: Victor Sirelson <vsir...@gmail.com>
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:18 PM

[David Skolnik]

Don -
The dilemma I would have with this particular solution is running a 1500 watt heater in an un-tended space.  It seems like a potential for trouble.
What me worry.
David Skolnik
Hastings on Hudson, NY
ps - what are you doing for undercovers now?

At 02:20 PM 11/17/2015, you wrote:

Hi,

Quickly is the whole problem. Build a piano "garage" and install heating for that. Add a humidifier to keep the piano from drying out. My own personal choice would be a piano life saver system for the humidity side, and a 1500 watt heater with a "no freeze" setting.

Keeping the piano from freezing with drier rods would not "cut the mustard" where I live.

Go to the local weather history and find out what the low temperatures are. From that it should be possible to work out how many watts of heat need to be provided.
 
Regards,
Don Rose, 

mailto:pian...@yahoo.comhttp://www.donrose.ca/

Box 37181, Regina, SK S4S 7K4
306-539-0716

From: Victor Sirelson <vsir...@gmail.com>
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Piano in a cold space

Thanks, Horace,

The space is a converted upstairs of a barn, and the piano is enclosed in a separate room roughly 30’ x 30'. It is used primarily as a movement / dance space and the piano is used for classes and concerts. It is practically speaking stationary and simply opened up when it will be played. Otherwise the larger space is not used during the winter and is unheated. The piano room is well-insulated and will heat up quickly when it is used.

Victor




> On Nov 17, 2015, at 1:03 PM, Horace Greeley <hgre...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>
> Hi, Victor,
>
> What kind of a building is it? If it's church/similar, your options may be pretty limited.  Other than the apparently limited use of the piano, what needs does the building serve?
>

> Things that come to mind are where the piano sits when it's not in use...sort of in place? Off to one side?‎ Permanent seating? Stage? Etc.

>
> While we certainly do not have the climatic changes in California that occur in NY, I have a number of venues that are fairly low use (piano-wise); and have found several ways to deal with those issues. More information would help narrow things down.
>
> Kind regards.
>
> Horace
>  Original Message 
> From: Victor Sirelson
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 09:50
> To: pian...@googlegroups.com
> Reply To: pian...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Piano in a cold space
>

> Thanks, Ron for the quick reply. 40°-50°F is no problem. But in New York State with temperatures getting much below freezing for some of the winter this may cause problems. This piano has been in this situation for years, but it was just restored and they would like to keep it safe from the ravages of a severe winter. No wood heat or high temperatures involved. Just turned up to 70°F or so for a few hours at a time. Similar to the country church scenario.

>
> Victor
>
>
>> On Nov 17, 2015, at 12:45 PM, Ron Nossaman <rnos...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 11/17/2015 11:23 AM, Victor Sirelson wrote:
>>> I am servicing a nice grand piano that is kept in a protected but
>>> unheated space. It is used several times each week when the space is
>>> heated, but otherwise the heat is not kept on. With winter at hand they
>>> have asked me to come up with a plan.
>>>
>>> Does anyone have a suggestion for keeping the piano healthy without
>>> needing to heat the entire space? I plan to install a Dampp-chaser
>>> system but this will not keep the piano above freezing, and in fact the
>>> humidity tank may freeze. Perhaps there is a small minimal heat setup
>>> that could be used. Any experience with such a situation?
>>>
>>> Feel free to email me or call: Victor Sirelson 914-522-3888
>>
>>

>> I've tuned for a lot of small country churches where the piano sits in 40°-50°F except for Sunday services when they heat it to 75° or above for the old folks. No Dampp Chasers. The pianos stay in tune wonderfully. Then I tune the pastor's piano. He heats with wood, and the piano has been destroyed as a result.
>>
>> Ron N
>
>

---

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[Will Truitt]

Let’s up the ante by buying that world class heater from Home Crappo, since we all know no one has ever had  any problems with anything they sell. 

 

But Don, wouldn’t all of that cost well over a thousand dollars?  It would be cheaper to heat the room!  And you haven’t even budgeted in the sprinkler system. 

 

Let’s budget the heating system for one 15 watt damp chaser rod, and a donated blanket.  That’s certainly more realistic. 

 

Will Truitt 

[Don]

Hi Will,

15 watts =~51 btu's of heat. It it is below freezing that is not enough wattage to do anything but harm.

Even if the piano is only 300 lbs 51 btu's is a useless number. It might raise the temperature of the piano about 0.2 F.

I've tried using as little as 100 watts with a mechanical thermostat in an upright (essentially a closed system) with a back cover. It is not enough to make a difference.

So let's forget about using drier bars and think about how much energy is needed to significantly raise the temperature of an insulated box large enough to contain the piano.

Or else, they can simply allow the piano to go to rack and ruin again.

 

Regards,
Don Rose
mailto:pian...@yahoo.com http://www.donrose.ca/

Box 37181, Regina, SK S4S 7K4
306-539-0716

---

From: Will Truitt <sur...@metrocast.net>
 

[Don]

Hi Victor,

There is still the concept of thermal drag to take into account. I suggest to my rural clients that the temperature needs to be tuned up about 24 hours before I tune so that the instrument will be stable.

 

Regards,
Don Rose
mailto:pian...@yahoo.com http://www.donrose.ca/
Box 37181, Regina, SK S4S 7K4
306-539-0716

From: Victor Sirelson <vsir...@gmail.com>
To: pian...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:18 PM

[Terry Farrell]

On Nov 17, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Joseph Garrett <joega...@earthlink.net> wrote:

SNIP

2. Make/buy a floor length padded cover. Install Dampp-chasers. In this situation forget the Humidifier part of the system.

SNIP

"forget the Humidifier"

Well below freezing outside - let’s say about 10 degrees F & 50% RH. Inside heated to let’s say 68 degrees. That should make the RH drop to less than 10% RH. Isn’t that exactly what the humidifier part of the system is for?

Terry Farrell

[Will Truitt]

That was tongue In cheek, Don.

[Joseph Garrett]

Terry,

Yes, it is. But, in this situation he's dealing with a situation where no one is taking responsibility for the piano or the space and the possibility of the room being at or below freezing is likely. Since the room is seldom used, it's a real problem all the way around. The best he can do is try to educate the people and make them aware of their carelessness and the ramifications. After that it's out of his hands. The frozen "humidifier" would be just another issue in the mix.

At least that was my take on it  and the reason for that recommendation.

Best,

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Farrell
Sent: Nov 17, 2015 4:20 PM
To: pian...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Piano in a cold space

[Ron Nossaman]

>
> Well below freezing outside - let’s say about 10 degrees F & 50% RH.
> Inside heated to let’s say 68 degrees. That should make the RH drop to
> less than 10% RH. Isn’t that exactly what the humidifier part of the
> system is for?
>
> Terry Farrell

That's why you forget the Dampp Chaser and just keep the room at 45°. It
doesn't freeze dry the piano nearly as bad.

If they don't want to pay for heat, who's going to buy them a Dampp
Chaser? If someone does, who's going to keep it watered in an unheated
building? No one, and no one, I'd say.

Ron N